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brutusofwyde
Jul 2, 2007, 10:11 PM
Post #26 of 37
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Registered: Nov 3, 2002
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alx wrote: I don't carry a ton of cams. Unless I'm pumped or sketched out I like to look for passive placements first. Each type of passive pro has it's own personality. The more often I place them the quicker, easier and solid-er those placements get. Not that it doesn't take time to learn to judge a good cam placement too but it typically is less tricky(except with the really small ones). I'd rather fall on a solid nut or hex than a cam any day.
Maybe that's why I like cams. Because when I'm really pumped or sketched out (which is usually the case) the cams go in fast and clean fast.
As far as passive placements, on most rock where I climb (Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Red Rocks, Sierra backcountry) the only advantage passive gear offers me is lighter weight. Security of placement is not an issue, and I'm much more likely to find a good cam placement than a good hex placement.
But then what do I know. I first learned to climb on hexes, stoppers, Forrest Titons SMC camlocks and the like. (not to mention the occasional piton).
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cracklover
Jul 2, 2007, 10:52 PM
Post #27 of 37
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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I did a climb yesterday. Nice steep four pitch 10a. My partner suggested the route, and also brought his rack. Get to the base. He dumps the rack out of his pack. Mostly forged friends, a few TCUs, and a handful of nuts. That's it. Little on the rack was less than 20 years old, and it felt frighteningly slim. I gave him a little lighthearted shit about it before we blasted off.
Turns out it was the perfect rack for the climb. I ate my words.
GO
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alx
Jul 3, 2007, 9:22 PM
Post #28 of 37
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Registered: Dec 22, 2003
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brutusofwyde wrote: alx wrote: I don't carry a ton of cams. Unless I'm pumped or sketched out I like to look for passive placements first. Each type of passive pro has it's own personality. The more often I place them the quicker, easier and solid-er those placements get. Not that it doesn't take time to learn to judge a good cam placement too but it typically is less tricky(except with the really small ones). I'd rather fall on a solid nut or hex than a cam any day. Maybe that's why I like cams. Because when I'm really pumped or sketched out (which is usually the case) the cams go in fast and clean fast. As far as passive placements, on most rock where I climb (Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Red Rocks, Sierra backcountry) the only advantage passive gear offers me is lighter weight. Security of placement is not an issue, and I'm much more likely to find a good cam placement than a good hex placement. But then what do I know. I first learned to climb on hexes, stoppers, Forrest Titons SMC camlocks and the like. (not to mention the occasional piton).
Brutus- You obviously know your stuff when it comes to place passive gear. Practice makes perfect right? I'm not saying that a well placed cam isn't bomber. I took a 20+ footer on a Friend just last week.
I'm just trying to say that I like to have as many options as possible for placing pro, I like a light rack and I'm cheap. (Not necessarily in that order.) For those reasons I try to use passive pro except when a cam is a better option; so I intentionally work on placing passive stuff so that, hopefully, someday I'll be as good at firing in passive pro as you are.
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the_climber
Jul 6, 2007, 6:42 PM
Post #29 of 37
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
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Just a few days ago I had a friend tell me that the lack of small cams and the forged friends on my rack scares them. Well, I have down to a #1 DMM 3CU (same as a #1 Friend), which I think of as a small cam for around here. And it got me thinking about how much of an overdependence many of us have on cams. I love my passive pro, hexes, tricams, nuts... all of it. I do love my cams too though, but much of the rock I climb on I would have to say getting a bomber hex can often be quicker than a cam (for me). But, I climb the great Canadian Chossies and the cracks aren't always great.... or even good, and passive pro gives MUCH more confidence.
Now, last year I made the trip into the Bugaboos, and while choosing gear from our three racks to make one I couldn't convince my buddy to go along with the Idea of hexes. Well we get up there on a route and having not done much granite climbing myself I have never had such confidence in the placement of my cams. The only difference: Rock type/quality. That was all, nothing more. Next time I go to the Bugs, I'll likely leave my hexes in the truck. However, next time on my favorite chosspile, Yamnuska, they will be right there on the gear sling.... that is until they get placed, and they will get placed.
Back to those small cams, Even in the Bugs on that Oh so sweet granite I found I could get excellent tricam placements where a smaller cam would go, but did see the value of small cams... And my filed down pink tricam  . Protected the crux pitch on the Kain route with a #0 DMM 3CU and a few small nuts in fact... even avoided those manky pins, but I wouldn't have been able to avoid the pins of antiquity without that small cam. Will I get smaller cams... well, I am a gear junkie , but will I carry them around hear on a regular basis, probably not though they will most definitely be with me in the Bugs.
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bob_54b
Jul 6, 2007, 7:13 PM
Post #30 of 37
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Registered: May 18, 2006
Posts: 64
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hey. I'm still using most of my rigid shaft Friends from the late 70s...think I get stares and laughs from old friends? But, they work great and I know them: they're old buds by now. I even change the slings on them every 10 years or so. I mean you gotta keep the overhead down or you spend too much time working.
I tried a pair of lycra tights once about 10 years ago. They were so tight my eyes bulged out so they pressed against my pop-bottle glass lenses. Changed my ocular prescription so much I had to train my cat to guide me to the cliffs. Didn't want to spend the money on a dog. That was the end of fashion for me. Wow, my eyes till hurt when I think about it.
Cheers................bobbo
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paulraphael
Jul 6, 2007, 8:02 PM
Post #31 of 37
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Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
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People have such strong preferences. i try not to to fall into that, as natural as it may be. I'm not a good enough climber to be stubborn and set in my ways (if my ways are so good, they why aren't I climbing 5.12?) so I see using other people's racks as good practice.
It lets me try different gear, and and gets me used to thinking on my feet. It's also just helpful to be flexible, unless you're sure you'll always climb with the same partners, or unless you're confident you can browbeat everyone into doing things your way.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 7, 2007, 12:14 AM
Post #33 of 37
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Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
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Pretty funny you guys telling me to learn how to place hexes i climbed on that stuff for years before i ever had cams.The plain old simple truth is that cams are faster and more versitle. Its nice to have one hex for a hammer but it makes a better hammer than it does a piece of gear that will slam in there instantly when you are maxed to the gills i recemntly climbed an 8 pitch 5.8 (Moby Grape) and brought brought a hex and 2 #3 camalots instead of the 3 #3's that i usually carry on that climb. I mannaged to use the hex 3 times but it was like I had to try to place the damn thing. Cams and stoppers pretty much place themselfs
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jcrew
Jul 12, 2007, 11:03 PM
Post #34 of 37
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Registered: May 11, 2006
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In reply to: So being able to borrow gear, or combine and mix racks, important I think. Don't usually get an argument about that point either, it just makes sense.
i once traveled an hour from my home with a semi-noob to j-tree for a few days over thanksgiving. i had the semi-haggard, dingus-type rack and he had 5 or 6 brand new cams and some nuts. anyway, as we were gearing and packing up the first morning in Hidden Valley, i go to combine racks for the optimum setup. but kid informs me that he'll carry and use his rack and rope when leading and i'll carry mine and use . , i'm not one to carry extra gear all over Josh, and was the one who was going to be leading the harder routes......i guess he was afraid i was going to scratch his cams or take a whip on his new cord.
(This post was edited by jcrew on Jul 12, 2007, 11:07 PM)
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the_climber
Jul 13, 2007, 4:18 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
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jcrew wrote: In reply to: So being able to borrow gear, or combine and mix racks, important I think. Don't usually get an argument about that point either, it just makes sense. i once traveled an hour from my home with a semi-noob to j-tree for a few days over thanksgiving. i had the semi-haggard, dingus-type rack and he had 5 or 6 brand new cams and some nuts. anyway, as we were gearing and packing up the first morning in Hidden Valley, i go to combine racks for the optimum setup. but kid informs me that he'll carry and use his rack and rope when leading and i'll carry mine and use . , i'm not one to carry extra gear all over Josh, and was the one who was going to be leading the harder routes......i guess he was afraid i was going to scratch his cams or take a whip on his new cord.
What a nOOb!
I'll admit that when I'm out with a nOOb I'll encourage them to use their gear to get used to it. To the point that if it's a short approach I'll sugest they carry their rack in too. But on a longer approach, no way! Lighten the packs up. However, even on those short approaches where my rack and whatever trad gear they have is humped in, I'll make sure they're doing some leads with only my gear and other leads with their's suplimented by my rack for whatever is needed. A certain fimiliarity with a variety of gear is something that I feel is esential for new trad leaders. I also am of the school of thought that too many climbers are overly reliant on cams, but then again I do climb a hell of a lot of Rockies limestone choss. In that rock, passive is better.
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getsomeethics
Oct 21, 2007, 10:43 PM
Post #36 of 37
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Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
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I have always been partial to using my gear for leading, but decided, over time that getting to know other brands and ranges of gear is a good way to improve placing gear quickly and efficiently, and eventually got over the partialness. for the most part, sometimes i catch myself trying to manipulate the situation to rack my gear!
i hooked up with a guy in squamish a while back and i asked should i bring my rack tomorrow or will we use yours? he asked what i had, and i gave him the inventory and he said to bring mine. i made the assumption we would be using only my rack by his decision....
meet him at the base of "snake" with my rack the next morning , and he has his full rack as well. so we pretty much dragged 2 racks up the route and used our own gear when we lead!! (would have left mine at the base but there was no need to go back to the start of the route after the walk off)
not sure what the deal was, but my rack was good enough (camalots .5 to 3, 1 set WC nuts), and his was complete as well, just mixed. i think he was just partial to his own gear.
later i talked with other people that had climbed with him and said pretty much the same thing. they would make plans, decide on their rack, and he would still show up and use his gear when leading. trust issues maybe?
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shockabuku
Oct 21, 2007, 10:56 PM
Post #37 of 37
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
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I climbed with a guy who always wanted to use his rack and maybe borrow a few pieces from mine. Initially I thought that was a little weird since his rack was maybe not as nice as mine (composition and age) but I figured, hey, this way mine will never get busted up or worn. I'll climb on someone else's rope all day too (as long as it's not a POS).
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