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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 10:06 PM
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Ok. Er...
Necessary El Cap routes? No, I've done absolutely no where near as many as Pete and I'm far from being as accomplished as many of you guys out there. I've climbed some 80/90 pitches (some entire BigWalls others singles/double pitches) of aid in Yosemite and over 100 clean aid climbs elsewhere (not US). Around a third of these have been solo now. I definitely know my systems and have fallen quite a few times (only twice long falls). So did I have the experience? I think it's a matter of opinion when it comes down to it. No, I haven't got loads of big wall routes under my belt as many other people have, but if I was really that terrible I don't think I would be able to solo 11 or so pitches in 16 hours or feel completely happy backcleaning heavily on easier aid pitches.
I have to say, it's tricky to answer that one - you be the judge! I've spent many an hour questioning myself since and still can't provide myself with a straight answer.
The weather? I checked with the rangers at the wilderness centre and was given "sunny for the next two days" (ample time for me to do the route) and given "sunny for 2 days" from a telephone weather line given to me by the Mountain Shop. I believed this was a fair check. Should have may be looked on the internet?
Hope that helps!
Tom
PS. Glad the burn got better - it looked pretty nasty!
PPS. Pete's much more of a man than me because when I met him at the top of El Cap after he'd done Scorched Earth he didn't even mention his whipper fall that caused the burn until I remarked upon it! Pete - how did those photos that you took of us come out? Posted them yet??
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-10 15:08 ]
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spike
Oct 10, 2002, 10:13 PM
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Hi Tom,
I use the DMM Belay Master when I solo !!!
The plastic gate is used to prevent 'cross loading'. It also postions the Gri Gri in front of the harness in a consistent manner which allows easy access to feed rope. The locker used on the DMM Belay Master is huge and looks solid. I assume you tie a backup knot and then attach the backup knot to your harness belay loop with a locker. Did the rope come completely out of the Gri Gri and the backup knot was the only thing that stopped you?
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 10:24 PM
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The Grigri actually stayed on the rope somehow (only just though!) - as I became detatched from the Grigri...
Yes, the back up know was the only know stopping from the talus field below. When I came to a stop, the Grigri was 20 ft above me still on the rope.
T
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spike
Oct 10, 2002, 10:34 PM
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Tom,
You are soooooooo lucky !!!!!!!!!
I wonder if you had one of the newer DMM Belay Masters. I went out to their web site and saw this:
It is also impossible to shut the catch unless the gate is screwed up fully which is an important new safety feature.
The word "new safety feature", I know I can't close the catch on mine unless the gate is screwed up fully. Maybe the older models allowed you to close the catch without screwing the gate up. Info. from web site: Gate Closed 25(kN), Gate Open 7 (kN).
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mountainmonkey
Oct 10, 2002, 10:44 PM
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If you can post some pics (or email me) of the biner (if you still have it) and the GriGri. Was anyting else damaged in the fall?
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passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
"Yes, the back up knot was the only knot stopping from the talus field below. When I came to a stop, the Grigri was 20 ft above me still on the rope.
Holy shit! That's the raddest f*ckin' thing I've ever heard!
Man, did you get a photo??
My rope burn has completely dried up and is healing well. Be disciplined: don't pick the scab! [It'll take about two weeks to form if the burns are deep - yuck]
Please let me state that I do not think that Tom was either reckless or in over his head.
He probably shouldn't have backcleaned so much, and he sure as hell should have had a screamer on the rivet.
So remember, kids:
Try not to backclean too much on hard aid, or you may end up whipping - and [at the risk of sounding like a broken record] ALWAYS tie a backup knot!
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 11:45 PM
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Sorry - no remains of the locker - you can go look at the base though!! (PS. I did search there a while later, but no luck ... would have been interesting).
I'll get a photo of the Grigri for anyone who is interested - might need a couple to show the detail... Nothing else broken apart from the rivet hanger and I left that up there on the rivet - so ya know where to find it!!
And.... to further Pete ... ALWAYS tie a back-up knot!! I have always been one to say "I won't happen to me" or "his gear only broke, because it was probably 15yrs old and he kept it in a bucket of acid..." - but now we know - these things do happen to me and it could be anyone next. Can't really express how glad I am that I took the precaution.
Tom
PS. And honest, it wasn't that rad - just a bit exciting - kinda disappointed no one got to see it all! If you wanna hear RAD - ask Pete about duct taping sky hooks to his hammer on Jolly Roger!!! That's balls - haha!
PPS. Respect to anyone who has or is thinking of soloing Eagle's Way as since I've been at it, I've heard a whole bunch of bad stories and epics about the route - kinda jinxed...
Laters
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-10 16:48 ]
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drunkenmonkey
Oct 11, 2002, 4:57 AM
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Tom
thats the most intense epic i think i have ever heard, i have to admit that i have, upto now, had an unshakable faith in my gri gri and lockers etc, to do their job properly but this really shows that nothing's 100%. my own recent intro to aid climbing simply solidified my confidence in the kit and i look back at some of the stuff i was doing in light of your experience and it makes me think i have to change some of my systems and ALWAYS tie a back up knot.
I have to say i'm glad to hear that you're alright and big respect for getting yourself extracted safely. i can imagine that there are a lot of us out there that would have probably just sat and whimpered on the end of the rope for an eternity before being able to do anything about it. glad the Park Service decided not to do anything about it. heal well and maybe i will bump into you in the Peaks again sometime soon.
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fishypete
Oct 11, 2002, 8:40 AM
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Great snappin' lockers and busted gri-gri's!
Gotta go with the Good Dr. on this one,
That is definitely the raddest thing I have ever heard!
Holy shit, I cant believe you are still with us. I guess the locker must have been cross loaded somehow - but I am not sure how that would be possible with the "belay-master" plastic thingy that should prevent it happening.
Perhaps the very thin contact point where the gri-gri touches the biner contributed??
I am looking forward to the pics!
It is a damn shame that biner was lost - that is an extremely valuable piece of evidence to figure out what exactly happened.
Cheers
Fishy.
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taxexile
Oct 11, 2002, 10:25 AM
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Tom - great epic! I don't think anybody here considers what you describe as reckless. You clearly knew what risks were involved and chose to accept them. Whether you were sufficiently experienced is something only you can judge. I guess that whenever you push yourself you are, by definition, going beyond your previous level of experience.
The thought of a crab snapping under these circumstances is very worrying. Although we are concentrating on the possibility of the Gri being unsafe for solo aid, is there any fundamental difference in the forces involved between soloing and leading while belayed by a second using a Gri?
I'm not an engineering type so I can't answer this question, but I have so far been comfortable soloing with a Gri because it doesn't seem any more dangerous than having some guy snoozing or picking his arse while belaying with a Gri. In a nutshell, during a fall, is there any more load on a Gri and its locker where it's attached to your harness rather than a belayer's harness?
[ This Message was edited by: taxexile on 2002-10-11 03:30 ]
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pete224
Oct 11, 2002, 11:48 AM
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Tom
I was glad to hear you're alright. I don't think you were anymore reckless than anyone else that descides to solo El Cap for the first time. It was necky and audacious but not reckless.
I did some climbing in the Valley with Tom in September and although I'm new to aid climbing and a big wall novice, I could see he was competent on C3/A3 and had his solo system sorted.
It seems to me the only thing you might have done differently given the chance, is not back clean that first bolt. I hope you didn't have to leave any gear behind (especially my #5 friend!). See you back in Sheffield.
Cheers,
Peter
P.S.
Good job to those involved with the rescue effort.
And Pete, could you post those photos you took at the top of El Cap when you get the chance.
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 12:20 PM
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Yeah, I've been thinking about Tom backcleaning the bolt.
Listen, kids - let's get this straight, K?
You must never EVER leave open the possibility for a Factor 2 fall!
NEVER.
IF the belay was set up as I am thinking, then backcleaning that bolt was an error that could have cost Tom his life because it set up the possibility of the factor 2. It was also dumb to backclean too much stuff, and the rivet should have had a screamer on it.
Tom - what was the precise orientation of your belay setup?
See, when you're soloing, your belay has to take an upward pull. Normally, if you're soloing aid and hauling a pig, you connect your lead rope to the top of the pig, and your pig becomes your belayer. This can introduce some dynamicism into your belay.
I should also mention that when I solo, it is my practice to put a screamer on the first few pieces of gear to help lessen the fall factor when the fall factor potential is highest.
However if you are speed soloing and hence not hauling a heavy pig, you may have to construct an anchor that can take an upward pull.
So Tom, can you please describe your belay orientation, specifically the position of the bolt, how your anchor was set up [for upward or downward pull], if you had a pig, and if you used it as part of the belay.
Note: I am not condemning Tom. Believe me, I'm the last guy who can cast a stone! I dropped a fricking pig on my last wall!
We just need to understand what happened, so nobody else makes the same mistake.
Factor 2 falls are extremely rare, and as you can tell generate horrendous forces, sufficient to break carabiners!
I think Tom is damn lucky to be alive!
Let's suss this out, and keep more of us alive, eh?
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 1:06 PM
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One further thought:
Tom, how exactly did you get rescued from so high up? Did they climb up to you or rap down to you, or did you get a helicopter ride?
Getting rescued from a thousand feet off the deck must be no small feat!
[I have yet to be rescued from anything, at least yet, despite emperilling my life countless times both high above and deep beneath the earth's surface. But I figure I'm overdue....]
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 2:28 PM
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Perhaps the locker wasn't quite closed all the way and thus was loaded in an open-gate fashion during the factor 2 fall?
Good move on using a backup knot.
Remember the U.S. Navy SEALs' advice regarding backups: "two is one and one is none". Translation: if you don't have a backup, you've got nothing. I know, we've got one lead rope and one buckle on our harness (or 2 buckles in series), but you get the point.
Actually, I've often mulled over some harness designs where there were 2 parallel webbing components using 2 parallel (and thus independent) buckles, but knew it would be a market flop.
Jeez, talk about topic drift... sorry.
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jds100
Oct 11, 2002, 2:43 PM
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A thought about a backup for using a Gri Gri: wouldn't it be possible to slide a piece of webbing through the same hole as the biner, and tie a triple fisherman's knot to serve as a sling back-up attachment?
And, I think Petzl might be interested in those pictures of the damaged Gri Gri, and the story of how it happened (might even get ya a new Gri Gri).
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Some more thoughts on this exceedingly valuable thread. Let me first note that I have no ill will towards Mr. Hardgrit and based on the info available I do not think he's a screwup, gumby, or anything like that at all. My take is that he's a competent guy whose number came up... and lived.
This epic reminds me of a fine post Pete made long ago. I searched but couldn't find it.
He made the point that disasters often happen not because of a single event, but due to the combined effect of multiple factors coming into play at once.
In Mr. Grit's case, he made the pilot error of too much backcleaning. Then he had the problem of a piece pulling (which may not have been his fault). Then he had suffered equipment failure caused by either a defective biner or another pilot error of not having the biner fully closed.
All these factors came together: (lead fall) + (exposure to high fall factor) + (biner trouble) = major problem. Any one of these issues occuring without the others would likely have never revealed itself.
This is like the engineering story of how the World Trade Center towers collapsed. The designers thought they thought of every possible threat, even a plane slamming into a tower. They thought of having a raging fire in a tower and knew it would affect the strength of the steel.
So during construction they had fireproofing material sprayed onto the bare steel beams.
But on Sept. 11, the huge impact force and bursting jet fuel blasted the fireproofing right off of the beams. The ensuing inferno destoyed the beams' strength. And the towers failed.
Disaster happen because multiple factors come into play at once. Minimize the factors you can control. Back yourself up for both 1) the factors you could have controlled but didn't and 2) the factors you can't foresee.
Again, great thread and thanks to Mr. Grit for his candor.
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 5:53 PM
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Gosh! There are a lot of questions to answer!!
Does soloing with a Grigri create any different forces as opposed to being belayed by your partner? Well, yes – but only due to the fact that your partner is spatially dynamic/i.e can move up towards you when you take a fall, thus reducing some of the forces.
I have a dutch aid-climbing friend who uses a pretty nifty system with lots of bungy cord built into the power point of the belay system. It’s all backed up and he tells me that when he has fallen on it, it has felt much softer than a simple “naked solo Grigri” fall. I’ll put a diagram together sometime if anyone is interested….
Yes, yes, this backcleaned bolt is an issue of contention. Should have signed onto this site with the name “Bolt backcleaner!” I have to admit even though I was going fast, I did linger to think about whether it was a good idea…. The bolt was pretty much at 90 degrees to the right of the belay and about 6 ft away. If I had clipped it, the rope would have ran from the power point of the anchor at 90 degrees – not something I was happy about as I construct my belays to take upward pulls if soloing fast and light (no – there was no haulbag). So the answer? I could have put a really, really long sling on the bolt and that would have eliminated this angles problem. But straight above (well, pretty much) was a nice rivet which I could put my beefiest rivet hanger on duct tape up. So, was I going to take a small risk (in my mind at the time….!!) and backclean the bolt, save the time slinging slings together or just step up to that decent rivet and clip that and have some nice angles going to my belay? Yep, it happened. So, there was the BIG error. I didn’t think I was going to fall in the first easy 25ft of climbing, and I didn’t think that a big rivet hanger would break. You definitely live and learn.
Mental note: I need to buy some screamers.
Can’t remember who said about the combination of errors/bad luck that lead to situations, but I couldn’t agree more. Things hardly ever go wrong when just one factor causes a problem. A statistician would just tell you it is a matter of time…. Think of all those days out when one little thing happens and it leads to nothing and you think “oh, that was lucky” – well one day, all those little things may happen at once…
Tom
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-11 10:55 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 6:46 PM
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Quote:I didnt think I was going to fall in the first easy 25ft of climbing,
Wanker! That's the time when it matters!
Quote: and I didnt think that a big rivet hanger would break.
Wait a minute! Did the rivet break, or did the rivet hanger break??
Were you using the Y-shaped kind, which are supposed to be weaker, or were you using the supposedly-stronger standard elliptical kind?
Quote:You definitely live and learn.
You've got horseshoes up your ass, Mr. Grit.
The concept of which you speak is called synergy, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
The post to which you refer is the death of Joe Ivy - Mistakes + Synergy = Death. I cannot help but wonder how close I came to writing about Tom - yikes!
Quote:Mental note: I need to buy some screamers.
Like, I think you should write it down, eh?
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csoles
Oct 11, 2002, 7:24 PM
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FWIW, the Death at Coulee thread is related to this one. Gran is no longer with us most likely due to many factors compounding quickly. It's very rarely one thing that goes wrong which results in catastrophic results.
Personally, I consider the use of a Gri-gri for this application foolish (the forces on the climber side are significantly higher in any fall that is less than factor 2). Likewise hard aid without a butt load of Screamers seems crazy to me. But it's your life.
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-23 09:19 ]
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 8:41 PM
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Personally, I consider the use of a Gri-gri for this application foolish (the forces on the climber side are significantly higher in any fall that is less than factor 2).
Good to see you here on the board Clyde.
Regarding the above comment, how would you say the grigri is any worse than other common self-belay methods? Surely it's no more static than a knot system, the soloist, or the solo-aid. In terms of the simpler systems that most of us know about, the only one I can think of that's remotely dynamic is the Silent Partner, since it takes a bit to lock up and thus provides some dynamic properties.
Could you elaborate?
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Pete,
Thanks for the comment mate! Yep, BIG mistakes I did make.
No, I was using the strongest of all my rivet hangers (it's pretty beefy... and you know who made it - BL) and it was not the Y, as I know they're not as strong.
T
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions. I only have one. Was your back up knot attached to your harness via a locking biner or did you retie your back up knot every so often directly into your harness?
I usually tie off to a locker when jugging etc-I haven't done much solo aiding.
Pete
[ This Message was edited by: rocknpowda on 2002-10-11 15:31 ]
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:33 PM
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To address someone elses question about the effectiveness of a grigri on one end of the system versus the other: it seems to me that the force would be much harder on the grigri in a solo aid fall because there is no rope between the load and the grigri where as when used as a belay device the load is at the opposite end of a dynamic climbing rope which would "suck up" alot of the impact on the grigri. I don't know if this is correct but that is how it seems to me.
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 10:33 PM
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It's no worries - I just hope no one makes the same mistakes that I ever did...
Yeh, I tie in with a locking karabiner - I always use my newest and strongest for this task.
T
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:49 PM
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Good thing that one didn't blow too!!!
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