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kiwiprincess
Oct 26, 2007, 2:17 AM
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THE MINI TRAXION METHOD IS DANGEROUS!
Yes the toothed mini traxion, or an ascender, will tear the rope at 4kn. (not much at all!)
They are only designed to Hang statically on NOT to catch a fall.
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shockabuku
Oct 26, 2007, 2:22 AM
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kiwiprincess wrote: THE MINI TRAXION METHOD IS DANGEROUS! Yes the toothed mini traxion, or an ascender, will tear the rope at 4kn. (not much at all!) They are only designed to Hang statically on NOT to catch a fall.
The minitraxion is recommended by the manufacturer for top rope solo. I think it is probably correct to say that they're not designed to catch a lead fall or something equivalent to a lead fall, but that they're okay for TR solo as long as you don't build up slack above the device.
Now I'll caveat that with the statement that I use the microcender and haven't tried the minitraxion yet.
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moose_droppings
Oct 26, 2007, 3:10 AM
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Yes, the system with loops works fine if you got a good stance for clipping all the time and a clean fall of the distance between your loops. Do like Flint said and make sure your always clipped in (don't unclip and then clip the next).
If you decide to go with some specialized equipment for top roped soloing, try the Petzl Rescuecender or Microcender. I used to use the Yates rocker, and it won't lock unless you take a clean fall of a few feet at least or if you grab the rope out of reflex. The Rescue and Micro will grab immediately with any backward travel along the rope.
Have fun.
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penguinator
Oct 26, 2007, 3:39 AM
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Thanks for all the suggestions and warnings.
From the looks of things, I may have a bit for a piece of equip sometime within the next month.
I have heard that the Traxion does indeed rip the sheath, but I don't think that the fall forces generated on a TR would be anything to worry about. I hear people say to use a Mini Trax, but what about a full sized Trax? Thats on my shopping list for my aiding, so it would be nice to knock out two birds with one stone.
I don't quite understand the GriGri.. (I have never touched one because I have stayed away from auto lock belay devices). Would it be a hand's free method? Or will I be reeling in the slack ever few moves?
And I realize the ideal solution would be to find a good partner, but out of the VERY few trad climbers in my area, even few of them would want to climb as often as I would like, and even few of THOSE want anything to do with cracks. It seems to be a dying style....
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mike_gibson
Oct 26, 2007, 3:43 AM
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If you plan on doing this often, then do it right.
First off, clipping loops sucks. Do it a couple times, and you will be looking for a better solution quick.
Traxion, basic, toothed ascenders, etc. will kill your rope and maybe you.
petzl basic ascender and petzl ascenion can pop off the rope leaving you free soloing.
Grigri's have a simple failure point at the connection point from bending caused by crossloading. One recent death from this. Plus the feed sucks. Easy to get slack build up. If you need to bail, just carry it with you and hook into rope.
Buy a petzl microcender. $60. Great feed, simple to use, light, and won't tear rope.
If you want to guarantee against death, buy two microcenders and use on two seperate lines.
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moose_droppings
Oct 26, 2007, 4:05 AM
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penguinator wrote: And I realize the ideal solution would be to find a good partner, but out of the VERY few trad climbers in my area, even few of them would want to climb as often as I would like, and even few of THOSE want anything to do with cracks. It seems to be a dying style....
Where ya from?
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penguinator
Oct 26, 2007, 5:38 AM
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I'm from Sydney, Australia.
Thanks for the info about the micro ascender, ill have a look into it.
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ajkclay
Oct 26, 2007, 6:05 AM
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mike_gibson wrote: If you plan on doing this often, then do it right. Traxion, basic, toothed ascenders, etc. will kill your rope and maybe you.
Sorry, too many people who don't know what they are talking about... this just happened to be the last one, but the rest of this type are just as wrong and misleading.
Toothed ascenders will not kill you or damage your rope if you fall if you are using them correctly when top rope soloing.
I've had a basic for about 5 years now (maybe 6) and it is safe.
Toothed ascenders are not designed to catch a long fall, they are designed to move up the rope with you as you climb. You weight the rope at the bottom which ensures smooth movement and then climb.
They are specifically designed for this purpose!!!
When you fall the device grabs the rope and catches you without sliding down the rope.
A static rope works better than a dynamic rope because you do not lose any height due to stretch.
If you like you can attach a prussik knot onto the rope on top of the basic as a backup that will work silently by sliding up with the pressure from the basic.
Honestly, don't post things about equipment being safe or dangerous if you do not know for sure people, when you do you contribute to the reason why advice from the internet is suspect at best.
Cheers
Adam
footnote: not a personal attack, more an attack on incorrect assertions.
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ajkclay
Oct 26, 2007, 6:07 AM
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penguinator wrote: I'm from Sydney, Australia. Thanks for the info about the micro ascender, ill have a look into it.
I bet you're in the navy, right?
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gunkiemike
Oct 26, 2007, 10:21 AM
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mike_gibson wrote: petzl basic ascender and petzl ascenion can pop off the rope leaving you free soloing.
You've never (correctly) used a Petzl Basic. The rope is surrounded by the upper biner. There is no way it can pop off. No...way.
As for the teeth damaging the rope, tell me how many ropes you've personally shredded. Post pictures. I've done 100's of pitches with a like number of falls with the Basic. Not so much as a single sheath yarn out of place.
And to the poster who said this thread is typical of rc.com because no one warned the OP about the static rope, well that's just classic. The truth about rc.com is that too many people don't read the posts accurately before responding. LOL dude!
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sandstone
Oct 26, 2007, 1:55 PM
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With toothed ascenders everything will probably be OK if you never get slack in the system. If you've climbed any length of time at all you know that everything does not always go according to plan. Always expecting things to go right can eventually get you in trouble. Especting things to go wrong is the smart approach. Expect that you WILL get slack in your system, and that you WILL shock load your device and your rope (that's why it should always be a dynamic rope).
In that mindset, the toothed ascenders are not a good idea in my book (despite other claims, even manufacturers claims) because they're not intended to hold shock loads. Also, a toothed ascender can fuzz your rope over time, even if you never fall on it.
Non toothed ascenders like the Microscender and Rescucender are more rope friendly in my opinion. They don't fuzz the sheath with normal use, and they don't grab the sheath so aggressively that it can be damaged in a fall. My favorite ascender of this type is the Rescucender, because it has a large cam and a large curved pocket in the ascender body. This large rope/cam interface spreads out the force on the rope. The Microscender is similar, just smaller (i.e. the force is imparted to a smaller area of rope).
If you ask me, one of the most dangerous aspects of solo top roping is the transition between climbing and rappelling. If you're using an ascender based system you have to re-rig for rappel (possibly while free hanging away from the rock). That introduces plenty of chances for things to go wrong.
If you use a GriGri, you eliminate the awkward/dangerous transition between climbing and rappelling. By default you are always pre-rigged for a rappel. If you fall or top out, just grab the rope and the GriGri handle and rap down -- you'll be climbing your next lap in no time at all. Another reason I like the GriGri is because it was designed to withstand fall forces (unlike many ascenders).
Rope feed through the GriGri will depend on the rope. A brand new smaller diameter rope is going to feed easier than a big fat fuzzed out 11mm (though I have climbed many times this way with my fat 11mm).
Things can go wrong with a GriGri based system too, that's what the knotted backup rope is for.
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sticky_fingers
Oct 26, 2007, 3:05 PM
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To eliminate slack, weight the bottom of the rope with something. Typically I'll bring my pack to the crag, complete with snacks, drinks, whatever. When I put my climbing gear on, I'll fill my pack with sneakers, a jacket, rocks, small children, whatever, then hang that off the rope. This creates tension in the line the whole time I'm climbing, and I've never gotten slack while climbing.
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sandstone
Oct 26, 2007, 3:39 PM
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Just the coiled up excess rope will work as a bottom weight on many climbs (assuming the weight of the excess rope is sufficient). Weighting the bottom of the rope does help with rope feeding and keeping slack out, however I wouldn't go so far as to say it eliminates the possibility of slack. S__t happens.
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yokese
Oct 27, 2007, 12:37 AM
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mtengaio wrote: I'm in the market for a Petzl Shunt to TR solo, has anyone here used one for this purpose?
Yes, I have, many times, mostly in friction slabs and some vertical routes.
But bear in mind that the Shunt is NOT designed for TR solo and can fail in overhanging routes, as indicated in its instructions.
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mtengaio
Oct 27, 2007, 4:50 AM
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Yeah, I've read the Shunt's manual. I'm mainly looking at dead vertical to barely, slightly overhung angles so I'm not too worried, and definately using a backup rope with knots.
What do you use? I've thought about using my ascenders but worry about sheath damage. Sounds like maybe that's nothing to fear though.
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andypro
Oct 27, 2007, 5:42 AM
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I've been using the full size petzl ascenders for years. I've never had a problem. Just make sure you follow the directions and you'll be fine. Would probably work on other brands as well, I dunno. Don't see why not, but they don't rate theirs for self belay.
For going gearless I use a clove hitch with plenty of backups. Way less clusterfucky than clipping and unclipping loops (been there done that). You also don't have to worry so much about the increasing harshness of a fall the closer to the anchor you get. Not necessarily a danger, but it hurts after a while. Anyone whos taken a factor 1 fall or higher without a lot of rope out can attest to this.
--Andy P
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penguinator
Oct 27, 2007, 8:14 AM
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ajkclay wrote: penguinator wrote: I'm from Sydney, Australia. Thanks for the info about the micro ascender, ill have a look into it. I bet you're in the navy, right?
*Looks confused*
What makes you say that?
Actually going in March. Clearance Diving to be precise. 
There seems to be a lot of stigma attached to using toothed ascenders. It is a risk, and there are a lot of 'if's' so I may as well play it safe and get a micro-ascender.
(This post was edited by penguinator on Oct 27, 2007, 8:26 AM)
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yokese
Oct 28, 2007, 9:51 PM
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mtengaio wrote: What do you use? I've thought about using my ascenders but worry about sheath damage. Sounds like maybe that's nothing to fear though.
I usually backed it up using a Petzl Tibloc running on the other end of the rope. Yeah, it has teeth and, in theory, might damage the rope. It never happened to me though, basically because the Shunt has never failed in the first place. But I haven't fallen many times on it either, and only short falls with no pendulum or slack, so I might have just been lucky.
In other words, I'm not suggesting anyone to do as I do.... there are devices in the market specifically designed for rope soloing.
(This post was edited by yokese on Oct 28, 2007, 9:54 PM)
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ajkclay
Oct 29, 2007, 3:43 AM
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penguinator wrote: ajkclay wrote: penguinator wrote: I'm from Sydney, Australia. Thanks for the info about the micro ascender, ill have a look into it. I bet you're in the navy, right? *Looks confused* What makes you say that? Actually going in March. Clearance Diving to be precise. There seems to be a lot of stigma attached to using toothed ascenders. It is a risk, and there are a lot of 'if's' so I may as well play it safe and get a micro-ascender.
Penguin is a Navy Base in Sydney - Navy diver would have been another guess too! 
Choose whichever piece of gear you feel most comfortable with, if you don't like the idea of a toothed ascender then use an alternative, but I'd make double sure you'll be happy dropping on something without teeth, because the other side of the coin is that when you first start climbing without a belayer your mind play tricks on you about "what if it doesn't catch me?"
The toothed ascenders are safe as, you wieght the bottom with a litttle slack to allow you to move around as you climb and the rope plays through... once you are a few metres up the weight of the rope pulls it through as you progress.
Sandstone if you have a prussik loop back up all you have to do is slide it up until it takes your weight and then you undo the belay device and set up your atc (rappel device) below this with no need to be hanging anywhere unprotected.
Cheers
Adam
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penguinator
Oct 29, 2007, 4:08 AM
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Actually I have been using the name penguinator since high-school, I have a fascination with the little buggers. It was just luck of the draw that I would be spending one year training at HMAS Penguin here in Sydney. I had goosebumps
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ajkclay
Oct 29, 2007, 4:40 AM
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penguinator wrote: Actually I have been using the name penguinator since high-school, I have a fascination with the little buggers. It was just luck of the draw that I would be spending one year training at HMAS Penguin here in Sydney. I had goosebumps
Hah hah! Funny synchronous guess of mine then huh?
Ever come to Adelaide? Feel free to give me a yell if you're ever here, we can go for a climb!
Or dive - I'm a n00b at diving, but love it!
Cheers
Adam
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the_chris
Nov 4, 2007, 6:22 PM
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Well, an ancient technique involves prussics.
Tie your rope at the anchor with 2 double figure 8s
On each rope, tie a prussic on each rope.
Put some weight on the bottom of each side of the rope.
When you fall, the sudden impact should bind the rope stopping your fall. Use the butterfly backup to fool proof yourself.
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al_piner
Nov 5, 2007, 3:58 AM
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the_chris wrote: Well, an ancient technique involves prussics. Tie your rope at the anchor with 2 double figure 8s On each rope, tie a prussic on each rope. Put some weight on the bottom of each side of the rope. When you fall, the sudden impact should bind the rope stopping your fall. Use the butterfly backup to fool proof yourself.
First of all ........ never mind .
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uhoh
Nov 6, 2007, 3:19 PM
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penguinator wrote:  Ill say this again! Has anyone used the method, where there are NO devices. You pre-tie loops (I would use alpine butterfly loops) in your FIXED rope, every few metres. You climb up, clip the first loop into your harness, and keep climbing. When you get to the next loop, you clip that one into your harness the same as the last one, then you unclip the first loop. Then you repeat until the top. Walk off, and repeat as much as you want. If you fall, the last loop catches you, so its a potential 2-3meter fall, depending on how many loops you put in. No devices to worry about if they engage or not. Now has anyone used THIS particular method? Its not a troll post, and yes I used the search function but to no avail. Its the cheapest option for me, and also the easiest. All the climbs I will do have a walk-on/off, so I can easily rig a bomber anchor from the top of the climb using BIG trees, with a length of 10mm static, and a 11mm dynamic. ________________________________________ EDIT: Thanks Airdo, how was the multiple loop method? I will be looking at a full sized traxion for my next purchase, as I will need it for hauling anyway. Up until then though I will be using the multiple loops. Any pointers or tips for it? What problems did you encounter?
I haven't because, really, that just sounds dangerous especially on a static rope.
But that aside, the first time I solo top roped I tied a prussik sling to my harness and tied butterfly knots every ten or fifteen feet.
You say you can't afford a gri-gri but what you should ask yourself is whether or not you can afford a hospital bill should something go wrong.
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sandstone
Nov 7, 2007, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: ...make double sure you'll be happy dropping on something without teeth, because the other side of the coin is that when you first start climbing without a belayer your mind play tricks on you about "what if it doesn't catch me?"
I see what you're saying, but it's no comfort to me to fall on a toothed ascender that I know has the potential to badly damage the rope. Is that the third side to the coin? :-)
In reply to: Sandstone if you have a prussik loop back up all you have to do is slide it up until it takes your weight and then you undo the belay device and set up your atc (rappel device) below this with no need to be hanging anywhere unprotected.
Sure, if you've fallen on an ascender and you need to go down you can lock yourself off with a prusik. Then you remove your ascender from the rope and rig your rappel device. If you've fallen on overhanging terrain and you're free hanging, you'll need to use another prusik or your ascender to rig a foot loop so you can unweight the first prusik. Once you get your weight transferred to your rappel device, you'll need to hold yourself stationary on rappel while you remove the first prusik and the foot loop from the rope (and get them all stowed for the rap). That's my point -- there are a lot of steps, each one a potential problem. Like I said in my previous post, I think this transition to rappel mode is the most dangerous part of most solo TR belay setups.
After a fall on the GriGri rig you just grab the handle and the rope and rap down. There's no need to change the rigging at all, by default you are pre-rigged for a rappel. Once you're down you still don't have to change the rigging, you just start climbing again. Simple.
What part of a belay is most likely to fail? The human.
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