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badsanta
Nov 11, 2007, 1:17 AM
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How does China (Yangshuo/Guilin) and Vietnam (Halong Bay) compare to climbing in Thailand (Krabi)? And how is the rest of the travel experience other then climbing? I've climbed in Railay/Krabi and loved it. Are all three different and great enough to warrant a visit? Thanks
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cavanaghrock
Nov 12, 2007, 7:14 PM
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I've been to Yangshuo and Tonsai (which is right next to, but, from what I've heard, far superior to Krabi).
My circumstances were a little different in each- I went to Tonsai with three climbing friends. We were all about the same ability and same energy level, so it worked really well. I went to Guilin alone, hired a guide the first two days, then met some other climbers who were way better than me for the last day. So, the circumstances could have colored my opinion, but . . . Tonsai, hands down, no contest.
Tonsai is the most amazing place in the goddamn world. You top out on 80ft cliffs right over blue ocean and green jungle, it's crazy. Tons of different routes, all difficulty levels. Super cheap. Great atmosphere. You can buy herbal supplements at the bar and smoke em right on the beach. Hire a boat to take you out the islands, do some deep water soloing, snorkel in crystal clear water, stare at all the national geographic fish.
The climbing is actually really similar to Guilin (they're both sport climbing on limestone). So Tonsai is basically Guilin, but with a lukewarm ocean right there, spectacular views, and NO CHINESE PEOPLE. Guilin is an overcrowded tourist spot, and I thought the climbing was only so-so. Plus, I lived in China for a year, and Chinese people are annoying- they cut in line, they piss in the street, they'll strike up a conversation with you while you're trying to take a shit, and they'll cheat you blind if you give them half a chance. Thai people are laid back. It's like the Asian Jamaica.
Cons of both are the heat and humidity (take tons of chalk) and the mosquitoes. But the weather's about the same in both place.
I don't know about Vietnam, but definitely choose Tonsai over Guilin. You won't regret it! |
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bandycoot
Nov 12, 2007, 7:35 PM
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I'll hit all three next year on a year-long climbing trip. If I ever find this thread again, I'll post up! 
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Arrogant_Bastard
Nov 13, 2007, 1:23 AM
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Krabi is a town, but it's also a county or whatever their equivilent is. In that sense, Tonsai is in Krabi, as is all the Railay peninsula, and this is what people refer to when they say there is good climbing in Krabi. There's no real climbing to speak of in Krabi town, it's just a transportation point where the buses stop. It was the usual way to Railay before the airport opened up in Phuket.
Can't speak to Nam or China, but I've heard great things about Nam. The classic, "it's the new Thailand". I think it just depends on if you like to get away from familiar (Nam) or you like having some comforts of home (Thailand)
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badsanta
Nov 13, 2007, 11:11 PM
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People refer to both Railay and Tonsai collectively as "Krabi" even though the climbing is a long way from Krabi town-45 minute boat ride as I recall (there is no road). Phuket is farther from Railay. The whole region is called Phang nga bay or Phra Nang Peninsula. Can anyone who's climbed in Vietnam comment on it? From the earlier post it sounds like Thailand beats China for climbing and vibe. What China does have is taller limestone walls. But routes may not ascend all the way up them. This page has great pics of Railay.
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/9987/raylae.htm
I'm more interested in roped climbing then deep water soloing-for one thing don't want to hit the bottom and have to hire a boat to get to the climbs. I get the feeling that it's much easier to meet partners in Railay then the other two spots.
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fuzzbait
Nov 13, 2007, 11:32 PM
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Haven't been to Vietnam but lived on Tonsai for 5 months and lived in Yangshuo for a long time.
Tonsai when I was there 5 years ago was one of the most amazing places I have ever been to in my life. However going back for week long trips over the years has made me realize that it is changing way to much for the worst. I will not be going back anymore.
Now this isn't to say you won't have an amazing time since it will be your first but I found it to be becoming to touristy and too expensive and the atmosphere that made it a climbers haven just isnt there anymore.
This is my feelings though please remember.
Badsanta is correct in some ways about China. I have been here 5+ years now and can't stand many aspects of it. Guiling is a tourist trap and definitely not a place to stay. Yangshuo on the other hand is an amazing place if you hit it up at the right time of year.
Right now for example it is getting cooler at around 15-20 Degrees C or so. However, friction is great and there are for fewer people here now. You can hook up with some foreign climbers from China Climb and go out everyday climbing with them. Great people and they know how to party. They are quite nuts in fact!
If you are into developing yor own routes there is unending potential for new routes. Just last month an American team came up and opened a whole new cave of seriously hard climbs. About 50 routes have gone up in the last couple months. All gear is there already for use if you can show you know what you are doing.
My friend found a km+ long length of cliff about 250m high cleaned and ready for routes. They will be starting developing that the end of the month I am told.
So it depends on what you want.
If you want sun, ocean, heat and are not on a budget go to Thailand. If you don't mind cooler temps and much, much cheaper living then go to Yangshuo.
Joe
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cavanaghrock
Nov 19, 2007, 6:32 PM
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If you don't want to deep water solo, that's cool, but the logistics of it are pretty simple. You can hire a boat for the entire day for like $15 a person, cheaper if you get a lot of people, and the Thai boat guys provide lunch and ample spliffs. Plus, the water's about 70ft deep around the bottom of the limestone spires, so you don't have to worry about hitting the ground. Sickest thing I've ever done, for sure
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woobeans
Nov 20, 2007, 9:59 PM
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yangshuo doesn't have the beaches and it can get really gloomy and cold. i was there in january for a week and it was REALLY cold. in thailand the temperature would've been beachy warm. :)
people are going to be "annoying" (or more accurately, "different") everywhere from home, anyway, so i wouldn't let fuzzy generalizations like those rule your choices. but definitely find out the weather patterns and choose the right time of year to go to yangshuo! halong bay also gets cold!
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badsanta
Nov 21, 2007, 6:44 PM
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How high can you deep water solo and drop in the water before it hurts or you risk injury?
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Arrogant_Bastard
Nov 21, 2007, 9:04 PM
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badsanta wrote: How high can you deep water solo and drop in the water before it hurts or you risk injury?
I'm sure you could hurt yourself from just a few feet up if you really fell wrong. People also make jumps from upwards of 80 feet and come out unscathed. I think the “average” person starts thinking about height somewhere in the 30-40 foot range. YMMV.
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badsanta
Nov 29, 2007, 5:29 AM
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bump
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dreday3000
Nov 30, 2007, 8:48 PM
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That was one of the most informative reply's I've seen on this GD website. Just wanted to throw that out there.
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cavedragon
Nov 30, 2007, 9:17 PM
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Long Dong, Taiwan is a worthwhile consideration as well. High-quality sandstone sea-cliffs with far better trad climbs than the Karst limestone of the mentioned sites offer. Decent sport climbing as well.
Long Dong photos & info: http://www.climbstone.com
Not the party that Tonsai has, nor the ox-in-the-road countryside of China or Vietnam. But Long Dong is just 30km from Taipei, a far more user-friendly (westernized) base of operations.
Less of a travel adventure than the others, but more climbing adventure.
(This post was edited by cavedragon on Nov 30, 2007, 9:19 PM)
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8flood8
Nov 30, 2007, 9:22 PM
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someone told me that hitting the water from 100ft is like hitting concrete.
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cavanaghrock
Dec 1, 2007, 3:03 AM
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woobeans wrote: people are going to be "annoying" (or more accurately, "different") everywhere from home, anyway, so i wouldn't let fuzzy generalizations like those rule your choices.
Sorry, this is a little OT but I held the same naive viewpoint of woobeans my entire life until I actually traveled, and I feel it's something that we're brain washed to believe in America. The truth is, there are some aspects of any culture which can be considered as objectively BAD as opposed to simply different. And yes, I know I'm going to get blasted with replies about how I'm judging by my values, and of course you're right, I am. But I doubt woobeans would defend the systematic subjugation of Chinese girls through foot binding, the use of dangerous chemicals in children's toys, or the persecution of Tibetan Buddhists as merely an expression of "different" culture. The Chinese have a lot of bad customs which I would consider annoying or dangerous as opposed to simply "different"- for instance, shitting, pissing, and blowing their noses in the street. Or, having two menus at many restaurants, one in Chinese characters and one in English, and charging double the regular prices on the English menus. Likewise, cutting in line, though small on the ethics scale, is something I can consider objectively wrong, as opposed to simply "different". After all, it's this same cultural behavior that leads Chines motorists to cut-off ambulances and fire trucks in traffic.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot about Chinese culture that I love but there is a lot that's also super ANNOYING about it, as opposed to simply different.
So, if you don't mind cleaning human fecal matter off your shoes every night, arguing to get a fair price for anything, and fighting to keep your place in line, China is a great vacation spot. But if you want to hang out with people that are warm, friendly, and laid back, people who are more than willing to share their hammocks with you, Thailand might be the place to go.
Of course, what do I know, I just lived in China for a year, have read tons of books on Chinese history, culture, politics, economy, and literature, oh, and speak fluent Mandarin. But I'm sure that woobeans' fuzzy generalization that all cultures are equally great and amazing is just as thorough and well-informed as my own opinion.
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badsanta
Dec 1, 2007, 3:53 AM
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cavanaghrock, are you saying that defecating in the street is the norm everywhere in China? I don't see how that would continue in a large city in 2007 for health reasons alone. I had to haggle for a fair price in Thailand every day. I had hoped that Yangshuo was small enough to avoid some urban ills, but you say that's not the case? Cutting in line is annoying. The question is, is the climbing and experience good enough to overlook these annoyances?
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badsanta
Dec 1, 2007, 3:57 AM
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Cavedragon, the pics of Taiwan climbing are great, but is the sandstone solid or does it break? Is it possible to live and climb in Taiwan at close to the price levels of Yangshuo China and Thailand? I'm guessing Tapei is expensive. Are you Matt Robertson (guidebook author) or do you have his email address?
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badsanta
Dec 1, 2007, 4:19 AM
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From the incredible photos I've seen of China I can put up with inconvenience for a couple of weeks of climbing. Weather is a bigger factor as winters might cold/wet to climb. Which is the best gateway city to fly into, Shanghai or Hong Kong?
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cavanaghrock
Dec 1, 2007, 5:23 AM
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badsanta,
Sorry, I was going to extremes to make a point, thanks for calling me out on it.
Yangshuo is a tourist Mecca, for Chinese and foreigners alike, so don't go there expecting to avoid urban ills. That is, if you go during the busy season. It is packed.
Is the climbing worth the annoyances? Yes, definitely. The climbing IS good, and IMO good climbing is worth pretty much any annoyance. If you're in Southern China, you should make it a point to go there.
But as for choosing between Yangshuo and Tonsai, I found Tonsai superior in all respects: climbing, environment, and people. For me, there's nothing like topping out over jungle and a bay of blue sea water. I'm not a great photographer, but the pics I have from Thailand all look like postcards. Have you seen "The Beach"? Honestly, Tonsai is paradise. And sure, Tonsai has problems of it's own. It's definitely a trendy place to climb, and you're going to have to deal with hundreds of noobs who have no idea what a toufa is being annoying and generally getting in the way. Haggling wasn't a problem for me in Thailand, but maybe that's just because everything was so cheap. I spent $800 for 10 days, and that includes airfare (to and from Macao), bus fare, hotel, food, beer, entertainment, EVERYTHING. And goddamn, luke warm water, topless sunbathers, white sand beaches . . . I was only in Tonsai for ten days, but it was the best ten days of my life.
As for the Chinese and shitting in the streets . . . hahaha, unless you've been there, you can't understand it. It's definitely an ignorance thing, but the Chinese have NO concept of sanitation. My roommate use to mop the floor with toilet water, and used the same sponge to clean the kitchen counters and wash the dishes. Once I was eating hotpot with a friend, and she threw her dirty chopsticks into the boiling soup to clean them (which scientifically I guess would work . . .). Rats and cockroaches are endemic in restaurants. People lay bloody animal carcasses on the floor of the subway (meat they are going to cook). I lived in Guangzhou, one of the 5 biggest cities in China, and I absolutely saw people pissing and shitting in the streets, in daytime. Most infants and toddlers in China don't wear diapers, they just have holes cut out of the crotch of their pants, and when they feel the need, they just go. Hep C was considered a perfectly normal disease to have amongst my Chinese friends. I had no idea there was a Hep E until I moved there. Why do you think a new super-strain of flu crops up in China every decade? It's really, really disgusting. But Thailand isn't the cleanest place in the world, either, so take it with a grain of salt.
And as for haggling in China, it's just really annoying when you're doing something like getting a ferry across the river, and the boatman goes to the 15 Chinese people in the boat and asks for 1 yuan, and then comes up to you and asks for 5 yuan, and you can either just pay it (okay, it's only like 50 cents), or you can spend ten minutes haggling him down to the price you should have paid in the first place, and this happens for everything, whether it's your hotel room or a goddamn bottle of water. And yeah, Americans are rich, Chinese are poor, but I was working in China and getting paid in yuan, and I sure as hell wasn't rich.
Anyway, Tonsai is hands down my pick. I'll try and post some pics to this thread, but I've never used embedded images before and I'm having trouble getting it to work. I'll wait until I'm in the office on Monday, when I have plenty of time for important stuff like this.
oh, and I just saw your new post. I think Hong Kong, Macao, or Guangzhou would be the best to fly into for Yangshuo. Shanghai and Beijing are on the other side of the country.
(This post was edited by cavanaghrock on Dec 1, 2007, 5:25 AM)
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woobeans
Dec 1, 2007, 8:54 AM
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In reply to: But I doubt woobeans would defend the systematic subjugation of Chinese girls through foot binding, the use of dangerous chemicals in children's toys, or the persecution of Tibetan Buddhists as merely an expression of "different" culture.
you're right, there are lots of bad things about chinese culture (which is hard enough to say in itself, since china is really freakin huge and has 30+ minority cultures), and the same could be said about thailand and vietnam. but bigger countries, religions, corporations, and groups always get the bad rap. it all happens just the same in other climbing destinations.
Climbing magazine recently published an article about the decaying tonsai scene. raw sewage floating into the same places people get water for cooking food, garbage being dumped in the forest by angry tenants who were evicted without warning. it doesn't end with that article, thailand is simply a poorer country that hasn't necessarily had a lot of education on health safety and sustainability. among other things. talk about getting cheated! and disease! the dangers of travelling in thailand and vietnam aren't too different from china's. that includes wildly unfriendly cheating people in what's advertised as the land of smiles.
that said, bad people are everywhere, which you already know. that includes america. every time i go to the US to go climbing i struggle with bringing my money into a country full of bigotry, religious extremism, and institutionalized fear. but not everyone shares my values either, so, oh well!
tourism! it's what's for breakfast. for the record, i've met lots of cool americans. they aren't all bad.
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badsanta
Dec 1, 2007, 5:37 PM
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I climbed in Railay/Tonsai and enjoyed it, but would like variety. Woobeans, you're Canadian? You should feel at home here in the USA, we've siphoned the most ambitious Canadians south of the border including your best hockey players! ;-) Seriously, this is a fairly good discussion of differences. I need to get on lonely planet thorntree and ask about the s#it in the streets.
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badsanta
Dec 1, 2007, 5:43 PM
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I missed the topless sunbathers in Thailand! 
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cavanaghrock
Dec 2, 2007, 3:32 AM
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haha, figured out embedded images.
Here's a picture of a toddler peeing in Tiananmen Square.
Here's a scenic shot of Yangshuo
Climbing shot of YS
Wall in YS
Local Chinese Cuisine (try the German Shepherd, it's delicious!)
Here's Paradise, aka Tonsai
Noobs choking up the routes in Railey
Cool people climbing in Tonsai
I've got way more pics, but I thought that was a pretty good spread. Let me know if you want to see more
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badsanta
Dec 2, 2007, 4:03 AM
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I posted to LP thorntree asking about Chinese shitting in the streets and was flamed. Sensitive topic.
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cavanaghrock
Dec 2, 2007, 4:05 AM
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Really? The Chinese seem pretty open about it. See my pic of the toddler peeing in Tiananmen Square. In my opinion, that proves it. I mean, if they pee on National Monuments, what do you expect?
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