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Dying Breed?
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Torag7


Nov 23, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Dying Breed?
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So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?


Partner hosh


Nov 23, 2007, 5:40 PM
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That's a lie. There are lots of trad climbers out there. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about...

hosh.


Partner angry


Nov 23, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Torag7 wrote:
So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?

As a primarily trad climber, I hope you're right. I certainly don't need mass appeal to keep doing what I'm doing.

You are wrong though, trad (gear routes) is more popular now than it's been in ten years.


johnathon78


Nov 23, 2007, 6:01 PM
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I hope so! That would be awesome if when I was like 50 and trad climbing if some 5.15 sport climbing 13 yr old kid comes up to me and says " what are those things on your harness "! I would love it. Then I would say " These are cams, son. I've been trad climbing since before you could even climb into bed"!


ja1484


Nov 23, 2007, 6:07 PM
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Re: [Torag7] Dying Breed? [In reply to]
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Torag7 wrote:
So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?


There are quite a few people climbing trad these days. They are less common than sporties and boulderers of course, because those two varieties don't require anything much beyond fitness and knowing how a carabiner works.

Climbing as an activity overall is growing quickly, but trad is slower to follow because it's a type of climbing that presents many more ways to injure or kill yourself. Plus, it's quite a bit scarier at times for a multitude of reasons. I'll give you an example of my buddy and I topping out a climb about a week back:

Me: "Got a good anchor up there?"
Partner: "I suppose it'll work. You're on belay, climb when ready."
Me: "You *suppose* it'll work?"
Partner: "I've looked around up here quite a bit. It's not gonna get any better. Try not to fall."
Me: "....climbing."


Sometimes, that's just how it goes.

There's also the cost-to-entry barrier. The people really swelling the ranks in bouldering and sport tend to be teens and college students with a lot of free time and little free money. The idea of ponying up 12-1800 for a trad rack seems implausible when a couple hundred bucks lets them explore the sport crag with the convenient parking.


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 23, 2007, 6:10 PM)


give_r


Nov 23, 2007, 7:13 PM
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There are expections to the age rule. I'm 17 and have been trad climbing for three years now and moving into aid and big wall climbing. Investment really isn't too big a deal if you play your cards right. Buy a nut tool, harness and atc and I've found that quite a few people are keen to have a second.

NS


brutusofwyde


Nov 23, 2007, 7:27 PM
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give_r wrote:
There are expections to the age rule.

Is an "expection" a cross between an exception and an expectation? or does it have to do with expectorant?

I certainly hope "trad climbing" is on the decline. It would be nice to go to my old haunts (Josh, Yosemite, Red Rocks) on a weekend without having to wait in line if I happen to want to climb a classic line.

Alas, I fear 'tis not to be. So I'll just keep climbing on weekdays, and seeking out the less crowded areas and the FAs.


brewer19


Nov 23, 2007, 7:37 PM
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In the UK it's hard to find anything BUT trad. if you climb outdoors, then you climb trad and that's just the way it goes. don't get me wrong bouldering is popular, but it's more popular as part of an indoor training regimen. you can find sport climbs around but they're more or less limited to quarries and otherwise unclimbable rock.

so no, we're not dinosaurs yet.


granite_grrl


Nov 23, 2007, 8:02 PM
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Its not that climbing on gear is dying, so much as trad ethics are dying. Dingus has writen some nice rants about ground up trad ethics and I'm sure he could put it better than I can.

You get strong kids right out of the gym who don't know what the fuck they're doing, they grab a rack and start climbing stuff I can't touch yet. They climb harder than those who might mentor them so they choose not to listen. They just continue and modify the attitude that they learned in the gym.


coastal_climber


Nov 23, 2007, 8:04 PM
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give_r wrote:
There are expections to the age rule. I'm 17 and have been trad climbing for three years now and moving into aid and big wall climbing. Investment really isn't too big a deal if you play your cards right. Buy a nut tool, harness and atc and I've found that quite a few people are keen to have a second.

NS

I'm similar.

Started trad and now my gym friends are trying to make fun of meTongue But I tell them: You can take a rat out of a the gym, but you can't take the gym out of a rat.

>Cam


ja1484


Nov 23, 2007, 8:15 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote:
Is an "expection" a cross between an exception and an expectation? or does it have to do with expectorant?


Likely both.



give_r wrote:
There are expections to the age rule. I'm 17 and have been trad climbing for three years now and moving into aid and big wall climbing.


Ya caught me kid. Up until now, I never knew that the world wasn't black n white. I'll be damned.


mushroomsamba


Nov 23, 2007, 8:19 PM
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that just means more good trad for those of us who can handle it. score one.

p.s. trad is rad


keithspernak


Nov 23, 2007, 8:24 PM
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I'm not sure if this really answers the question, but look at snowsports. 10 years ago snowboarding was the most awesome thing on the planet (to me at least). Skiiers were considered uncool and the evolution of tricks, stunts, big stuff, etc. seemed to be contained within the realm of snowboarding. Now look at it. Skiiers are doing stuff that blow the bindings off snowboarders, both in bounds and out. Look at what some folks are doing with trad these days. It's only going to progress the discipline. Mind blowing.


notapplicable


Nov 25, 2007, 4:01 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Its not that climbing on gear is dying, so much as trad ethics are dying. Dingus has writen some nice rants about ground up trad ethics and I'm sure he could put it better than I can.

You get strong kids right out of the gym who don't know what the fuck they're doing, they grab a rack and start climbing stuff I can't touch yet. They climb harder than those who might mentor them so they choose not to listen. They just continue and modify the attitude that they learned in the gym.


I think your right, its all in how you define "trad". If its simply climbing on gear, then the answer is no, its more popular than ever.

What is a truely dying breed is the art, ethic or soul of trad? Trad has its roots in exploratory, adventureous, onsite, independent, risk embracing, etc..., climbing. All of that is slowly being filtered out of the genre and what is left is still trad its just new trad and is marked by emphasis on different ethics, goals and attitudes.

Unfortunately I sometimes feel that whats gone is something that most of us cannot get back. I love the Gunks, New River and Red River as much as the next guy and sure I often seek out climbing with sketchy gear and runouts because, for me that's where the juice is. Despite that I can't quite escape the fact that I'm at a climbing park? Perhaps I need to travel farther out and get into the Whites, Rockies or Sierras. I know its not all about the venue but it doesnt matter what routes I climb or in what style I do so, my surroundings some how make it all feel like a bit of novelty. I even get that feeling at Seneca and some of the 'of the radar' spots around there. The feeling is insidious and it creeps. Perhaps it just the tendancy to idealise what came before, retro trends and all that. Cant say what I'm chasing realy.

I know this is all a bit depressing but its Sat. night and I would rather be lying in a tent thinking about the tick list for tomorrow but instead I'm sitting in front of a computer. Ahhh well, I'll make it to the local sports park tomorrow to skip some bolts and plug some gear. Doing what I can to keep the spirit alive. You know, I started this post in a good mood too. Unsure


Edited to add: LaughLaughLaugh I just read my post and it sounds terribly emo. If I wasnt so opposed to deleting posts I would be tempted.Blush


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Nov 25, 2007, 4:04 AM)


Partner artm


Nov 25, 2007, 6:09 AM
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Pfffft
Trad is the new bouldering


drjghl


Nov 25, 2007, 5:21 PM
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I think . . . trad climbing does continue to grow but at a much slower rate than bouldering/sport climbing; therefore not a dying breed. But may appear that way at times.

I'm a trad climber and I moved to southern/central Arizona about one year ago. Have been trying to tick off all the classic trad routes in my grade before I move out of the area.

I have noticed that lots of gear routes don't seem to get climbed much, if at all.

Last week, we climbed Great Expectations, and there was a "bush" right in the middle of the route.

At Chimney Rock, a sweet crag with easy access, I rarely see climbers. While other mediocre bolted walls are packed with sporties.

When a popular sport route and trad route are side by side, I'll see tons of posts on the sport route, and sometimes the trad route won't even have it's own post.

I placed and left a nut on the approach to several notable climbs (to protect an exposed 5th class move) When I came back 4 months later, the nut was still there. Warm and Free to Reefer Madness may be the best trad route of it's grade at Mt Lemmon. Name one popular clip up where you can leave a draw and still find it the following weekend.

At a popular sport climbing gym in Tempe, AZ, the gym is usually packed. They have a sweet hand crack that my friend showed me one day. Jumped on it pronto when I saw it. Should have a queue, but alas, TOTALLY ignored.

I know trad climbing is not dying but, at least in some places, it may seem that way.

Gets kind of lonely some times. sniff. sniff.


trebork2
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Nov 25, 2007, 9:41 PM
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Well after being in Zion last week I don't think there is any shortage of trad climbers. Not at all.


midwestishell


Nov 25, 2007, 10:33 PM
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I am also curious how many of those kids can actually put a bolt in themselves. My guess is not many. Personally, that is a problem that I see. Its nearly a sense of entitlement. In my community, I rarely see this demographic giving back (or showing interest in giving back) to the community.

Th


penguinator


Nov 26, 2007, 12:34 AM
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No way is trad on the decline.

I think separation between all the disciplines is greater though.

I talk to sport climbers who are so focused only on sport climbing that they will not even try trad. Its the same with trad climbers vs aid climbers, and boulderers vs everyone. Wink


Partner baja_java


Nov 26, 2007, 1:01 AM
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yes, trad climbers are a dying breed. please give generously when you see us out on the rocks. cash is preferable, or free booze, but pawnable jewelry or the clothes off your back, that would touch our hearts too. and if we hit on your girlfriends or wives, again, please understand, we're dying!!


theirishman


Nov 26, 2007, 1:58 PM
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trad climbing is a dying breed cause all the young kids wanna be cool and take their shirts off and do upside down sport climbing, im 17 and have been climbing for 3 years, and im one of 3 of 17 kids i know who climb that does trad, now its all about the bouldering and sport it seems like


tomcat


Nov 26, 2007, 2:20 PM
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There was a beautiful thread on the Taco a few weeks ago about a route in J Tree. Bolts are involved,but I'd still call it Trad as some gear is placed and the bolts are widely spaced. As the thread evolved the history of the route came forth and it was something to see.

I don't sport climb much at all,but I have yet to see/read or hear much history connected to any sport climb.Place bolts,wire climb,redpoint,next.

I believe there are so many sport climbs because they do not fill the soul the way trad does.Trad is rad.


kyote321


Nov 26, 2007, 3:20 PM
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i friend who is an insder in buying and selling climbing equipment. bouldering stuff - up. sport - down. trad -up.


swede


Nov 26, 2007, 3:45 PM
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In Norway I have heard they bolted every crack in some areas. Now, some years later, "adventerous" young climbers with very shaky legs are placing pro in cracks that could easily accommodate a big wall rack in half a ropelength.


Partner epoch
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Nov 26, 2007, 4:46 PM
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kyote321 wrote:
i friend who is an insder in buying and selling climbing equipment. bouldering stuff - up. sport - down. trad -up.

Have you compared the relative cost between items pertaining to each speciality?

It doesn't take much "trad" equipment to turn the $$, even if there is little profit from it. bouldering is quite specific being mainly one thing. Sport is cheap all around. I had my first sport setup (sans harness, atc, shoes, et al.) for under US$200. Trad, however, I'm above US$2500 and growing.

I agree with some of the above posts about the ethic changing. The ethic, IMO, is probably the most important thing about the trad segment that is the most important. I consider even a bolted climb a traditional ascent, if and only if it were climbed ground-up first go. No TRing, no scoping the route on rap. Bolts placed on the lead.

That ethic still prevails in small pockets within the community, but sadly is disappearing with the want for more "convenience" climbing (I.e.: park and go).



So. to answer the OP:
Yes, trad in it's root sense is a dying breed. There are less and less people who are about placing the guidebook in the top pouch of your pack and just climbing whatever line looks appealing to you that you think will go. The sense of adventure, even at well developed crags, is going away. Everybody is spraying beta on how to do the route, which way to rack your gear, and not simply climbing just to climb, have fun, and push yourself both physically and mentally on something that is foreign to you.



Toerag


Nov 26, 2007, 4:55 PM
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Trad is alive and well in the UK and probably will always be so.


kyote321


Nov 26, 2007, 5:47 PM
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ya'll don't really have a choice! most of your areas are closed to bolting.

and, yes trad is definately more expensive. but, from my insider info, the relative cost was taken into effect. according to him, the greater accesibily of trad climbs and people from the gym wanting the best bang for buck in the outdoors are going trad, more than sport. btw, he is a full-time amga guide.


Toerag


Nov 26, 2007, 5:58 PM
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There are actually quite a lot of sport crags but the grades only really start in the 7's
I think it is also down to a very strong Trad ethic, Sport is still seen to be what the French do, also top roping is frowned upon. it's just not cricket as the knobs might say


chossmonkey


Nov 26, 2007, 6:09 PM
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"Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.


midwestpaul


Nov 26, 2007, 7:01 PM
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I was pretty psyched to climb in NC last weekend and see a whole wall being climbed by 5-10 parties and not a bolt in sight. From the mess of gear and dogs at the bottom, it should have been a sport crag.

I don't think trad is dying. I think sport and bouldering are growing exponentially due to an extremely forgiving learning curve (how long does it take to learn to clip a bolt).

Trad climbers should be psyched because this means more sport crag development which means varied and more interesting training for the real challenge: trad.


notapplicable


Nov 26, 2007, 10:00 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
"Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.

Well said, Sr.


tradrenn


Nov 28, 2007, 2:59 AM
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Trad is dying in Quebec, Ontario and Kentucky, IMFHO.


healyje


Nov 28, 2007, 8:33 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
"Trad"climbing is dying. "Gear"climbing is becoming en vogue.

What's actually in vogue when it comes to 'trad' climbing is sport climbing on gear. Lots of the cross-overs I see are using gear - but they are sport climbing on it. Aside from being a risky proposition when they don't recheck their pieces after taking on them, it well illustrates that the real distinction between trad and sport isn't the bolts - it's the dogging. As climbing shuffles down the cultural path from 'climbing' to 'trad climbing' to 'adventure climbing' one can only wonder how long before we're at 'danger climbing'.

Pretty much the same split happened on water as well. Go out on a big day in the Columbia River Gorge and all the windsurfers are in the 40s and 50s; all the kids are on kite rigs which are way easier to learn, use and a lot less hassle than windsurfing. Most kids don't want to deal with the fairly brutal learning curve of windsurfing in the Gorge.


theirishman


Nov 28, 2007, 9:05 PM
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didier is a bad ass for chop bolts when you can use natural pro, sport climbing is meant for when you CANT place trad gear, if you climb a crack, place some gear~!


mattltambor


Nov 28, 2007, 9:19 PM
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In reply to:
... As climbing shuffles down the cultural path from 'climbing' to 'trad climbing' to 'adventure climbing' one can only wonder how long before we're at 'danger climbing'.

I'm up for some Danger Climbing - who wants a partner?! Sly


caughtinside


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healyje wrote:
Go out on a big day in the Columbia River Gorge and all the windsurfers are in the 40s and 50s; all the kids are on kite rigs which are way easier to learn, use and a lot less hassle than windsurfing. Most kids don't want to deal with the fairly brutal learning curve of windsurfing in the Gorge.

Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.


jt512


Nov 28, 2007, 10:57 PM
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swede wrote:
In Norway I have heard they bolted every crack in some areas.

Smoked fish, Opera, and now bolted cracks. I like these Norwegians.

Jay


healyje


Nov 28, 2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Dying Breed? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.

You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board...


caughtinside


Nov 28, 2007, 11:36 PM
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.

You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board...

Nope. And I don't think you've done too much surfing, but I think you make comparisons there all the time.

I've tried kiteboarding and windsurfing, 2x each. Not my thing, but when those dudes with the kites fire thirty feet into the air, they look like they're having fun to me.

The old guy who I used to see kneeboarding in 15' surf looked like he was having fun too.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 12:03 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Dying Breed? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Or maybe kite surfing is more fun.

You clearly haven't been out on 45-50kt day with 2.8 m sail and a 7'6" board...

Nope. And I don't think you've done too much surfing, but I think you make comparisons there all the time.

Nope, just enough to make those comparisons about not being able to bolt waves. Not that those comparisons require any surfing to make, though.

caughtinside wrote:
I've tried kiteboarding and windsurfing, 2x each. Not my thing, but when those dudes with the kites fire thirty feet into the air, they look like they're having fun to me.

So are the folks on a windsurfer 40-50 feet over a trough on a big day - though I have do say, I haven't seen anyone throw a double forward lately.

The point being, however, is there are clear, valid parallels between sport-trad and kiting-Windsufing. Sport and Kiting are both so popular because they far less commitment and skill compared to Trad and Windsurfing. You can be up and competent on a kite in a span of a month or two compared to a year or two windsurfing.


dan2see


Nov 29, 2007, 12:47 AM
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On climbing day, we jump in the car at 9:00 am, rush out to the hills, climb 'till 3:00 pm, jump in the car, rush back to the city, and have a beer and dinner.

Some folks boulder, some sport, some multi-pitch, some just hike.

So it's the activity. There's not a lot of room for ethics.

Well I do this, too, so I can't claim to be anybody's shining example. Personally I'm not satisfied with this routine, but I really think the activity takes priority over the ethics.


azenari


Nov 29, 2007, 12:53 AM
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no i don't think so. I think trad climbing will be around for quite a while. I mean who wants to bolt a climb with a predominant crack? Also, there could be a resurgence as newer and (perceived-as-safer/safer) equipment reaches the market.


Partner angry


Nov 29, 2007, 12:55 AM
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dan2see wrote:
I really think the activity takes priority over the ethics.

Dan, I like you. Even though you waved at us all with your dinger. The above quote however is frightening. Basically it gives everyone freedom to do whatever the fuck they choose as it pertains to whatever they choose.

Getting to the top is your goal? Chip that fucking route, it's too hard.

Climbing safe is your goal? Bolt it, bolt everything.

We could come up with limitless scenarios of reasons why each one of us needs to adhere to some ethics, both on rock and in life.


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
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healyje wrote:
You can be up and competent on a kite in a span of a month or two compared to a year or two windsurfing.

That may be true, I'm in no position to confirm or deny it.

You might also say the same thing about snowboarding. Yet, it has had an undeniable impact on skiing.

Kind of like how sport climbing has advanced big wall freeclimbing.

Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 1:28 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared.

Actually they can - the analogy stand just fine whether you happen to like it or not. The point being that if it were not possible to bolt rock we'd have about 85% fewer climbers. And if you could bolt or otherwise protect big waves surfing wouldn't have the respect for its elders that it does.

Tow-in surfing would be the closer analogy these days. Sure some waves are only really possible towing in, but folks are now towing-in on smaller waves which actually only require skill and resolve to surf. In fact, a brief google search brings up this gem from a Honolulu paper:

In reply to:
Some North Shore surfers have complained about tow-in teams plowing through popular breaks such as Chun's Reef and Laniakea — both close enough to shore to paddle to — in 3- to 4-foot surf.

Same bullshit, different sport...


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 1:48 AM
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Re: [healyje] Dying Breed? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Anyway, I've never really liked your bolting waves analogy, because I think it misses the mark. Surfing and climbing can't really be compared.

Actually they can - the analogy stand just fine whether you happen to like it or not. The point being that if it were not possible to bolt rock we'd have about 85% fewer climbers. And if you could bolt or otherwise protect big waves surfing wouldn't have the respect for its elders that it does.

Tow-in surfing would be the closer analogy these days. Sure some waves are only really possible towing in, but folks are now towing-in on smaller waves which actually only require skill and resolve to surf. In fact, a brief google search brings up this gem from a Honolulu paper:

In reply to:
Some North Shore surfers have complained about tow-in teams plowing through popular breaks such as Chun's Reef and Laniakea — both close enough to shore to paddle to — in 3- to 4-foot surf.

Same bullshit, different sport...

Well, I still disagree. The lack of bolting on waves doesn't mean that there aren't many surfers.

Respect for elders? Order is enforced at many breaks by violence. Lack of lineup etiquette is rampant and competition for waves is beyond fierce. Big wave surfing has exploded in popularity in the last 10 years. The only reason there aren't even more big wave surfers is because there are only a few accessible big waves, and they don't break terribly often.

Yeah, sometimes guys do tow in to smaller waves to learn how. Sure it's annoying, and maybe they should find a less crowded wave to practice on. WOuld you suggest they tow straight into Jaws? Do you really think Laird Hamilton's first tow in was on a 40' wave?

I'm not sure where you get your thoughts and opinions about surfing. But, it's perfectly obvious it is not from actual surfing. FYI, I have surfed Chun's reef, Laniakea, and Pipe.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 2:12 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
Yeah, sometimes guys do tow in to smaller waves to learn how. Sure it's annoying, and maybe they should find a less crowded wave to practice on. WOuld you suggest they tow straight into Jaws? Do you really think Laird Hamilton's first tow in was on a 40' wave?

I and they aren't talking about folks practicing to tow-in onto 40' waves - the problem is folks are now towing into small waves and not for practice.

caughtinside wrote:
I'm not sure where you get your thoughts and opinions about surfing. But, it's perfectly obvious it is not from actual surfing. FYI, I have surfed Chun's reef, Laniakea, and Pipe.

Yeah, I haven't surfed a ton, mainly pre-hotels McKenna on Maui in the 70's and few goes at Bondi in the 80's. I'm well aware of the crowding and violence in the lineups - that was the case at McKenna in '78 - nothing new about that. I'm guessing offhand you'd be towing in at Maverick's if you showed up - why would surfing be any different?


(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 29, 2007, 2:14 AM)


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 2:27 AM
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healyje wrote:
I'm guessing offhand you'd be towing in at Maverick's if you showed up - why would surfing be any different?

hey that's cute, guessing how I'd surf. It's also pretty funny, since the first guys to tow in to mavericks were also some of the early maverick's paddle in guys.

But continue, your speculation about something you know zero about is great. Bondi in the 80s. Good one. I didn't surf Bondi until '99. Then I wised up and surfed Manly and Queenscliff.


mach2


Nov 29, 2007, 2:38 AM
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This may not be surfing related, but I think Evidence that trad is certainly not on the decline is the prominent gear development. The Link cam, the powercam, lightweight tricams, ultralight stoppers, the master cam(soon), the max cam, the c3, etc. If there weren't a large enough gathering of people to buy such items, the companies wouldn't have put in the R&D much less testing to bring these things to fruition. Plus as others have said before, as production gets cheaper, we will likely see the cost barrier for buying gear decrease, thus trad or gear climbing and classic ethics may flourish once again.


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 2:46 AM
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mach2 wrote:
Plus as others have said before, as production gets cheaper, we will likely see the cost barrier for buying gear decrease, thus trad or gear climbing and classic ethics may flourish once again.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you on the cost angle... for example, BD moved their cam production to China. And the price of camalots actually went up, by a buck a cam or so.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 2:55 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
hey that's cute, guessing how I'd surf. It's also pretty funny, since the first guys to tow in to mavericks were also some of the early maverick's paddle in guys.

Probably a good guess though. While I've toyed with the idea of surfing on and off again, I can state without hesitation I'd never tow into a wave the that could be paddled - it's a pretty simple idea with no shortage of parallels in climbing.


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 3:04 AM
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
hey that's cute, guessing how I'd surf. It's also pretty funny, since the first guys to tow in to mavericks were also some of the early maverick's paddle in guys.

Probably a good guess though. While I've toyed with the idea of surfing on and off again, I can state without hesitation I'd never tow into a wave the that could be paddled - it's a pretty simple idea with no shortage of parallels in climbing.

Actually no. tow in never really appealed to me. The best thing about surfing is it's simplicity, you and a board. I'm not really sure why people would drag out a ski for a wave you can paddle into, except to train. Besides, I grew up a competitive swimmer, I can paddle into just about anything.

The waves I can't ride, I can't ride because I'm not good enough. A more apt comparison would be difficulty. Hard waves are more like 5.13. I could paddle into them as a 5.11 surfer, but most of the time I did, I got pummeled.

Here's some food for thought: I think your sport/trad distinction has a much better parallel in shortboarding/longboarding, not bolting waves or lack thereof.

So there, you're right. I almost exclusively shortboard. But there are always a couple guys out who longboard, even when the conditions are clearly better suited to a shortboard. The best waves are more or less unrideable on longboards.

And the best sport waves are packed. Just like the best sport crags.


nilcarborundum


Nov 29, 2007, 3:06 AM
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ja1484 wrote:
Torag7 wrote:
So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?


There are quite a few people climbing trad these days. They are less common than sporties and boulderers of course, because those two varieties don't require anything much beyond fitness and knowing how a carabiner works.

Climbing as an activity overall is growing quickly, but trad is slower to follow because it's a type of climbing that presents many more ways to injure or kill yourself. Plus, it's quite a bit scarier at times for a multitude of reasons. I'll give you an example of my buddy and I topping out a climb about a week back:

Me: "Got a good anchor up there?"
Partner: "I suppose it'll work. You're on belay, climb when ready."
Me: "You *suppose* it'll work?"
Partner: "I've looked around up here quite a bit. It's not gonna get any better. Try not to fall."
Me: "....climbing."


Sometimes, that's just how it goes.

There's also the cost-to-entry barrier. The people really swelling the ranks in bouldering and sport tend to be teens and college students with a lot of free time and little free money. The idea of ponying up 12-1800 for a trad rack seems implausible when a couple hundred bucks lets them explore the sport crag with the convenient parking.

This has been my argument for via ferrata. I've always wanted to do some big walls, but it seems like there is a large learning curve, plus a high cost to boot. It seems like a wall like el cap, or maybe something in zion, could get one via ferrata route on it without being in the way of any classics.


Partner epoch
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Nov 29, 2007, 3:10 AM
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azenari wrote:
no i don't think so. I think trad climbing will be around for quite a while. I mean who wants to bolt a climb with a predominant crack? Also, there could be a resurgence as newer and (perceived-as-safer/safer) equipment reaches the market.

This guy...




ja1484


Nov 29, 2007, 3:23 AM
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nilcarborundum wrote:
This has been my argument for via ferrata. I've always wanted to do some big walls, but it seems like there is a large learning curve, plus a high cost to boot. It seems like a wall like el cap, or maybe something in zion, could get one via ferrata route on it without being in the way of any classics.


Have to disagree there. That learning curve and cost factor keeps a lot of people off of walls who might otherwise get up there with easier access and have no business being there. Make no mistake: walls, even multipitch trad routes, aren't the same as less committing forms of climbing.

Even Via Ferrata, that kind of vertical distance takes some time, and retreat is a matter of hours, not minutes. People who head up on these adventures need to be prepared to deal with objective hazards much more directly, as avoiding them becomes a far more difficult prospect.

Bigger stone is rarefied air for good reason...you can't turn joe sixpack 5.13 bolt-burner loose on a big wall, because he just doesn't have the knowledge or judgement to know how to relate to this new environment.


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 29, 2007, 3:26 AM)


climbsomething


Nov 29, 2007, 3:24 AM
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Other, Other Jay:

Did you get permission from jt to use his ace-in-the-troll photo?


jt512


Nov 29, 2007, 3:29 AM
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mach2 wrote:
This may not be surfing related, but I think Evidence that trad is certainly not on the decline is the prominent gear development.

There are more trad climbers today than ever before. However, the percentage of climbers who trad climb is down from say 10 years ago. So, trad had decreased in popularity among more and more climbers.

HTH.

Jay


ja1484


Nov 29, 2007, 4:34 AM
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jt512 wrote:
There are more trad climbers today than ever before. However, the percentage of climbers who trad climb is down from say 10 years ago. So, trad had decreased in popularity among more and more climbers.

HTH.

Jay


I think it'd be more accurate to say that very few of the people getting into climbing are getting involved in trad. Let's not forget that climbing has exploded in popularity over the past ten years overall...so I guess it's accurate to say that trad is unpopular amongst the newer generation. At the moment.

I wouldn't say it declined in popularity, I'd just say there's a large new population that is uninterested/unwilling/uninsertyourreasonhere.


(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 29, 2007, 4:35 AM)


theirishman


Nov 29, 2007, 4:37 AM
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i think trad will come back up with a vengance when people realize what sonny trotter realized "Their was something missing from sport climbing, adventure."


ja1484


Nov 29, 2007, 4:38 AM
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theirishman wrote:
i think trad will come back up with a vengance when people realize what sonny trotter realized "Their was something missing from sport climbing, adventure."

When's punctuation gonna come back up with a vengeance?


moose_droppings


Nov 29, 2007, 5:22 AM
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ja1484 wrote:
theirishman wrote:
i think trad will come back up with a vengance when people realize what sonny trotter realized "Thier was something missing from sport climbing, adventure."

When's punctuation gonna come back up with a vengeance?

Spelling too.


tradrenn


Nov 29, 2007, 5:28 AM
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Gear is queer, sport it where it's at.


(This post was edited by tradrenn on Nov 29, 2007, 5:52 AM)


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 6:39 AM
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tradrenn wrote:
Gear is queer, sport it where it's at.

Sport calling trad ghey - now that would be a juxtaposition of reality worthy of Rove himself.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 6:47 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
The waves I can't ride, I can't ride because I'm not good enough.

That's basically my point all along with the analogy - that there is nothing you can 'do' to a wave to make it easier to ride.

caughtinside wrote:
The best thing about surfing is it's simplicity, you and a board.

And this is how I feel about trad climbing - you, your rack and the rock as I found it. I'm either good enough to climb it as is or I'm not.

But I'm glad to hear you get the idea regardless of the activity it hails from. If more folks had that fundamental concept in some form or another climbing would be better off.


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 7:07 AM
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
The waves I can't ride, I can't ride because I'm not good enough.

That's basically my point all along with the analogy - that there is nothing you can 'do' to a wave to make it easier to ride.

caughtinside wrote:
The best thing about surfing is it's simplicity, you and a board.

And this is how I feel about trad climbing - you, your rack and the rock as I found it. I'm either good enough to climb it as is or I'm not.

But I'm glad to hear you get the idea regardless of the activity it hails from. If more folks had that fundamental concept in some form or another climbing would be better off.

Yeah, but I disagree because a bolt does not make moves easier to do. You can either pull them or you can't.

And ironically, that's one of the things I like about sport climbing. The simplicity. a dozen draws and the moves, not a bunch of BS clanging around on my body. Bolts in rock do not detract from my enjoyment of climbing.


jt512


Nov 29, 2007, 7:35 AM
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healyje wrote:
tradrenn wrote:
Gear is queer, sport it where it's at.

Sport calling trad ghey - now that would be a juxtaposition of reality worthy of Rove himself.

If you can't use the right word, at least use a big one.

Jay


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 8:51 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
Yeah, but I disagree because a bolt does not make moves easier to do. You can either pull them or you can't.

Compared to protecting and doing them it's fundamentally far easier - that's why folks are always complaining here about leading trad three levels below their sport grade.


healyje


Nov 29, 2007, 8:54 AM
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jt512 wrote:
If you can't use the right word, at least use a big one.

Jay

If you don't have anything useful to say, at least comment on grammar to make yourself look like a big one.


ja1484


Nov 29, 2007, 12:46 PM
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jt512 wrote:

If you can't use the right word, at least use a big one.


Stolen for new sig.


p0bray01


Nov 29, 2007, 1:25 PM
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Hmmm I was feeling actually like trad is a growing breed...(if thats a phrase to use) because more and more places are getting banned from bolting...(or banned completely from climbing) It woud seem to me that if things continue on this path...trad may be the only way you can climb...that or bouldering.


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2007, 4:08 PM
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Yeah, but I disagree because a bolt does not make moves easier to do. You can either pull them or you can't.

Compared to protecting and doing them it's fundamentally far easier - that's why folks are always complaining here about leading trad three levels below their sport grade.

Maybe for climbing. But for surfing, there are very few waves that I'd say are truly R.


rockie


Nov 29, 2007, 7:49 PM
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Trad is getting ever more popular as we go along, and has overtaken sport climbing from all I gather Cool


rockie


Nov 29, 2007, 7:51 PM
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Whoever told you that was wrong..

Bouldering is there simply to assist with strength building for trad climbing Shocked


tradrenn


Nov 30, 2007, 12:37 AM
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jt512 wrote:
healyje wrote:
tradrenn wrote:
Gear is queer, sport it where it's at.

Sport calling trad ghey - now that would be a juxtaposition of reality worthy of Rove himself.

If you can't use the right word, at least use a big one.

Jay

If you would take a look at my user name then you would understand that I was being sarcastic.

How dare you pick on Healye ?

Again, I'm just kidding around.

On a serious note:
If sport is all one does then you are missing out, there is nothing greater then a 5.8+ or a 5.9+ to lead.


cchas


Dec 10, 2007, 4:02 AM
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healyje wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Yeah, but I disagree because a bolt does not make moves easier to do. You can either pull them or you can't.

Compared to protecting and doing them it's fundamentally far easier - that's why folks are always complaining here about leading trad three levels below their sport grade.

Yahoo!!!!! I should then be climbing 5.15 or 5.16...YES! Actually I'm too much of a wimp on sport routes and my trad and my sport abilities are about even (+/- a letter grade).

Actually I see a lot of young people getting into trad. About a month or so I saw a guy at Paradise Forks that at the climbing gym I'd swear was a boulderer, but the kid (he's maybe 19) totally walked a 5.12 crack on lead, onsight. Not exactly young, but I climb with a woman who's about 25, but she just started climb a short time ago, who leads 5.11/5.12 cracks on a daily basis. From my viewpoint I see a lot of young kids out there leading trad, and they are getting sick strong fast.


(This post was edited by cchas on Dec 10, 2007, 4:03 AM)


jaybro


Dec 10, 2007, 4:26 AM
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Yeah, trad is dead, stay away!


Partner heximp


Dec 10, 2007, 4:38 AM
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LOL
Dying breed? If that is so, may I be in their will?
One fact is I really love playing with gear that is made especially for Trad climbing. Especially cam devices, pulling the trigger has such a positive effect on me.
Plus...
Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime!
AF


caughtinside


Dec 10, 2007, 5:40 AM
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heximp wrote:
Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime!
AF

There are a lot of spiritual criminals out there. Pirate


jt512


Dec 10, 2007, 7:11 AM
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heximp wrote:
Why would anyone bolt a beautiful crack? Why destroy the rock when it is possible to climb it safely without leaving a trace of your passage? Bolting such features is such a crime!
AF

Where do you people come up with this stuff?


This is the 21st Century, folks.




Jay


jaybro


Dec 11, 2007, 7:30 AM
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We are Devo!!


pico23


Dec 11, 2007, 9:42 AM
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Torag7 wrote:
So I was told today that being an trad climber makes me a dying breed, because most people nowadays are drifting towards bouldering or sport with less preparation and mind games. I haven't been climbing long enough to see a change...what do you all think?

I haven't done a ton of climbing in the last few years but I'm a trad climber.

Honestly part of why I stopped climbing regularly (on rock, I still climb ice as much as possible) was the crowds. Don't get me wrong, I can escape them quite easily but sometimes you realize there is a reason why people congregate at certain areas, EASE OF ACCESS.

In the Gunks (not too much sport) climbing is bigger than ever, and that is with the $100 a year climbing pass or $12 (a few years ago) weekend day pass.

Personally, i wish it was a dying sport, I mean my cams, chocks, hexes, and stuff will last decades even if trad climbing ceased to exist to the masses, and I can always buy sport weenie ropes and harnesses and stuff at the local Eddie Bauer (i mean EMS).

If it was a dying sport all those popular cliffs (that are popular for a reasoN) wouldn't have any lines. ...I hope the sport bites the dust!!!!


cchas


Dec 11, 2007, 3:08 PM
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Now what is a dying breed is hard alpine climbers. There are a bunch of people doing easy alpine but amoung the whole climbing community not a lot doing hard alpine. But I have to say its good to see some new faces in that arena such as Colin Haley.


paintrain


Dec 11, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Doesn't the very word "Trad (as in Traditional)" suggest we know it is the 21st century, but we embrace our history.

Hell, why climb it at all if you can just aid up it. Clippin the chains is clippin the chains.

Bolt ladders for everyone.


PT


homasta


Dec 28, 2007, 9:17 PM
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actually more of my younger climbing friends are into trad they enjoy seeing how far they can run it out or how sketchy the pro was its the older guys at the gym who only sport because of their fear so I think it actually is the new thing to do at least here in nc ps excuse grammar and spelling just got my itouch and have not gotten used to it yet


healyje


Dec 28, 2007, 9:53 PM
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cchas wrote:
Now what is a dying breed is hard alpine climbers. There are a bunch of people doing easy alpine but amoung the whole climbing community not a lot doing hard alpine.

There are 'hard' trad and alpine climbers today - but as a percentage of the total population of people who identify themselves as 'climbers' - their numbers have dropped precipitously from the '70s. What we have now is a massive and shallow pyramid of climbers, 85% or so who simply pull plastic and clip bolts at a beginning and intermediate level, with an exceptionally small percentage of the whole who percolate up to do amazing things.

That's a marked contrast to thirty years ago when there was a small total population, but one consisting of few beginners and made up of mostly intermediate and advanced climbers. The very best then were generated out of a much, much smaller base of largely competent climbers compared to today. That's because, before gyms and sport climbing, you learned fast or found another sport and the majority of 'climbers' today wouldn't have been then.

paintrain wrote:
Doesn't the very word "Trad (as in Traditional)" suggest we know it is the 21st century, but we embrace our history

We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial.

homasta wrote:
actually more of my younger climbing friends are into trad they enjoy seeing how far they can run it out or how sketchy the pro was its the older guys at the gym who only sport because of their fear so I think it actually is the new thing to do at least here in nc.

If trad is dying, NC will be one of the last bastions of holdouts - young and old.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 28, 2007, 9:59 PM)


andrewbanandrew


Dec 28, 2007, 9:54 PM
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most of the people in the climbing club at our school are alpine types

but there are tons of people who climb in the gym but do not belong to the climbing club


bradkillough


Dec 29, 2007, 1:59 PM
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Don't bolt a crack, dummie!!


paintrain


Dec 29, 2007, 5:04 PM
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healyje wrote:
We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial.

What is with the grumpy old man fatalist attitude. I'm kind of laughing at your response as it doesn't say much of anything other than you put on both legs of your grumpy pants.

Climbing has evolved for many many years and has constantly changed. Would you like us to go back to your ideal of 30 years ago when everyone was hard or quit. Or should we just lose the helmets, run out everything, and only use antiquated pieces of protection and equipment in honor of your ideal?

The fact that 30 years ago you didn't have the other types of climbing, really doesn't bear on the argument of the populace.

Since there were a lot more choice lines 30 years ago and so few people doing it, it might have seemed more amazing. The percentage of climbers climbing at the top grades of 30 years ago now is pretty high. Now to pull something amazing off requires a professional level of training and time to climb that few have the resources to obtain.

What do I have to do to be 'hard'? VII, 5.12x, M9, A4, AI7 in 6 hours solo with a piece of dental floss for rapping off? Do I have to tie into a swammy and only use hexes while climbing 5.11?

What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial.

PT


dingus


Dec 29, 2007, 5:12 PM
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paintrain wrote:
What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial.

PT

I have no idea myself. I do not think yesterday's wine will provide the ultimate answer however. Whatever trad is to become, today's youth will be the driving force.

So whats it take? You and yourn will have to decide that.

Joseph is correct to point out the way things were. Check out this article if you have a few free minutes:

http://www.stanford.edu/...nt/yos/hourglass.htm

I offer that with no qualification other than the request that you read it.

Cheers
DMT

Cheers
DMT


Partner epoch
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Dec 29, 2007, 6:04 PM
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dingus wrote:
paintrain wrote:
What's it take to be an amazing hard trad climber for our generation of fear and denial.

PT

I have no idea myself. I do not think yesterday's wine will provide the ultimate answer however. Whatever trad is to become, today's youth will be the driving force.

So whats it take? You and yourn will have to decide that.

Joseph is correct to point out the way things were. Check out this article if you have a few free minutes:

http://www.stanford.edu/...nt/yos/hourglass.htm

I offer that with no qualification other than the request that you read it.

Cheers
DMT

Cheers
DMT
Wow dingus, that's an amazing read.


Partner rgold


Dec 29, 2007, 6:45 PM
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Peter Hahn's account of the Hourglass; one of the all-time classics of climbing writing in my opinion.

Personally, I've been climbing long enough (50 years) to see it all. I started with soft iron pitons, graduated to chromemolly, gave 'em up for nuts, and ultimately embraced cams. My climbing was certainly motivated by a now-vanishing trad ethic that, as Joe points out, is only partially related to the "sport technique on gear" commonly practiced today. The fact is that "real" trad climbing died with the introduction of cams, which have made crack-climbing possible in almost the same way that bolts have made overhanging face climbing possible.

But don't get me wrong---it's fine with me. As Dingus says, today's answers will not be found in yesterday's wine, and modern climbers, trained in the gym, on hard boulder problems, and on brutal sport climbs have already and will continue venture forth to do trad routes beyond the imagination, not to mention the abilities, of the older generation. There is nothing new in this either. Every new generation has to find a way to build on and exceed the accomplishments of their elders, almost always by embracing approaches the elders denied themselves, and the elders always see the demise of the sport in the new activities of the next generation.

I've done my share of mind-bending R- and X-rated leads. I've fallen and lowered instead of hanging, and have missed out completely on doing routes I might have made in the modern style because I judged myself "not ready." I have no regrets about this, it was the way we did things and I am as proud of my restraint as I am of any of my occasional minor successes. But I do not hold subsequent generations to our old standards, in fact I don't hold myself to them either. In my declining years, I'm happy to have the extra technology and less stringent "rules of the game," they allow me to continue to experience the fundamental joys of climbing in my sixties when I am no longer willing or able to climb as I did in my thirties. If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on.

To paraphrase the ancient French refrain proclaiming the passing of a monarch and coronation of a new one,

Trad is dead. Long live trad.


paintrain


Dec 29, 2007, 11:48 PM
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Thanks. That was a good read. There are some definite themes in there a lot of folks attach to their ideals of trad. The golden age of Yosemite seems to be what most folks point at as the apex, but I sometimes see it as the beginning of the decline as well.

Different parts of the world have seen their own versions of our American golden age and there have been ages and eras that shine in history. I have been reading some classic climbing lit of late; Shipton, Tillman, Bonatti, Herzog, etc. The ranges of accomplishments, the varying attitudes, backgrounds, and approaches.

I've got about 20 years of climbing under my belt. I look back on what I valued 20 years ago compared to today and some has changed, some hasn't. But it is usually defined by what we were reared in.

Having your teeth cut in a climbing gym is different than learning based on some of the older notions, but the older notions were smashed by many of the attitudes of the Yo golden boys along the way.

Thanks again Dingus and rgold.

Trad is dead. Long live trad.

PT


healyje


Dec 30, 2007, 1:24 AM
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paintrain wrote:
healyje wrote:
We don't embrace it - we by and large drill it. "trad climbing" is a mockery of a term wielded by a generation in fear. "Adventure climbing" is the latest mockery wielded by a generation in denial.
What is with the grumpy old man fatalist attitude?

Hey, at the very least let's agree to call a spade a spade - the only thing "fatalistic", or predestined, about the linquistic perversions above is they illuminate the inevitable effects of packaging and selling a risk-free version of climbing to a mass market as just another entertainment option.

paintrain wrote:
The fact that 30 years ago you didn't have the other types of climbing, really doesn't bear on the argument of the populace

True, we didn't have sport climbing, but we had 'trad', aid, bouldering, and alpine. Sport climbing and the gyms they spawned do bear entirely on the argument of populace - they are, in fact, entirely responsible for the populace.

paintrain wrote:
The percentage of climbers climbing at the top grades of 30 years ago now is pretty high.

The percentage of today's climbers capable of being handed a rack of stoppers and hexes to do those 5.11's of yesteryear in the same style they were put up in is still small, and miniscule as a percentage of the total number of today's climbers. And that's part of the beauty of them - grab some hexs and stoppers and you to can still have the same experience as the FA if you want to do more than talk about it. Don't kid yourself, climbing at the edge of the possible was no less daunting then, or at any other time, than it is today - such thinking can only be considered part of the [necessary] arrogance of youth.

As Dingus and JStan say, the future is written by the young, but again, don't kid yourself that some large percentage of 'climbers' today are doing remarkable climbing - they aren't - they're clipping bolts as risk-free entertainment, quite often as a group social activity. There would be nothing wrong with that if it weren't for the crowding, impact, access issues, and cost in bolts the price tag for this 'populace' comes with.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 30, 2007, 1:31 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 30, 2007, 1:34 AM
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rgold wrote:
I've done my share of mind-bending R- and X-rated leads. I've fallen and lowered instead of hanging, and have missed out completely on doing routes I might have made in the modern style because I judged myself "not ready." I have no regrets about this, it was the way we did things and I am as proud of my restraint as I am of any of my occasional minor successes. But I do not hold subsequent generations to our old standards, in fact I don't hold myself to them either. In my declining years, I'm happy to have the extra technology and less stringent "rules of the game," they allow me to continue to experience the fundamental joys of climbing in my sixties when I am no longer willing or able to climb as I did in my thirties. If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on.

Trad is dead. Long live trad.


Well said and I thank you for your honesty. Its a trait that is rarer than it should be.


healyje


Dec 30, 2007, 2:08 AM
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rgold wrote:
If this also means there is a new generation that will never climb as I did back in the day, so be it; time marches on.

I could give a rip if new generations climb as we did, what I care about is the cost in pristine rock being voraciously consumed to provide risk-free climbing to the majority of new generations whom otherwise would not be climbing. We are essentially talking about the complete commidification of rock as no different from any other resource sold as a consumer product. The thinking, or lack thereof, is basically the fulfilment of Hardings prophecy of the inevitable (fatalistic) shift of focus from rock to humans. The transition is now so complete just attempting to articulate the concepts behind them is like talking Swahili to an Eskimo.

rgold wrote:
Trad is dead. Long live trad.

Monarchal transitions are one thing - the death of monachy is entirely another. We are more a witness to the latter than the former.


Partner angry


Dec 30, 2007, 2:12 AM
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Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today.

A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right.

Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling. It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an entire generation because our hair isn't grey yet is bullshit.

I'm not argueing for sport climbing or gym climbing. As you've probably seen in my posts, sport climbing is best kept for time with pretty girls or hangovers. It's not really "good". You know that about me, I'm not some naive sporto. You know in fact, that I've probably climbed more 5.11+ and harder trad routes this year than total routes you've climbed this year. Lets be straight on this, you're not talking to a gym rat now.

I'm waiting. Anxiously in fact. Tell me about your stoppers, your hexes, your bad rubber. Bring it all up. Call me out, do it. I'm 29 years old and I'm too god damn young to know how rad you were.

PS, I've never been more than 2 feet away from a piece of protection. That made me cry.


(This post was edited by angry on Dec 30, 2007, 2:15 AM)


healyje


Dec 30, 2007, 5:48 AM
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angry wrote:
Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today.

Please, do get angry...!

angry wrote:
A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right.

Then you'll be able to comment on the substance of my posts as opposed to ci just responding to my clear personality disorders.

angry wrote:
Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling.

Ah, I assume here you're jumping ot either my posts on other threads relative to the generational differences in the sound of climbing in crags ("take" now vs. "falling" then) or the posts on folks sport climbing on gear - which is more a safety issue. Both are entirely true and I agree are somewhat "stupid".

angry wrote:
It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an entire generation because our hair isn't grey yet is bullshit.

Actually, my climbs from the mid-70's were uprated to 12's (including one that some, not me, argue is a 13; none were ever down rated - most all were 10's and 11's when 11's were the top of the rating system.

angry wrote:
You know in fact, that I've probably climbed more 5.11+ and harder trad routes this year than total routes you've climbed this year. Lets be straight on this, you're not talking to a gym rat now.

That's possible given was out with a bad shoulder and a long bout of pnemonia for half the year. But, I still did manage a 9-pitch FA in Red Rocks (true, only a paltry 5.9 wide excercise) with one of the locals and broke through the first couple of pitches of this line onsight, cleaning and trundling free on lead before winter set in. That high roof is about a thirty footer with a couple of more smaller ones on the pitches above it out of sight. This summer when we reopen I'll need a strong partner to forge through those remaining roofs, come for a visit and you can see how I got the gray hair first hand.




jaybro


Dec 30, 2007, 6:09 AM
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healyje wrote:
angry wrote:
Healyje, I'm going to rant on you until my fingers get tired. It won't be too long because I wore myself out today.

Please, do get angry...!

angry wrote:
A few weeks ago CI (teh raisin nibbler) mentioned that all of your posts were essentially "things just aint what they used to be" drivel. I've paid closer attention, he was right.

Then you'll be able to comment on the substance of my posts as opposed to ci just responding to my clear personality disorders.

angry wrote:
Healyje, your arguements are stupid. People are falling on gear now, but then again, they alway have been. The people who have always pushed the sport have been falling.

Ah, I assume here you're jumping ot either my posts on other threads relative to the generational differences in the sound of climbing in crags ("take" now vs. "falling" then) or the posts on folks sport climbing on gear - which is more a safety issue. Both are entirely true and I agree are somewhat "stupid".

angry wrote:
It's you old turds, that were old turds in your 20's beating your chest on some 5.8 while Yaniro climbed 5.13 that couldn't deal the fall. Yes there's a time and a place to fall and not (I know this, I look down that barrel more than you, I'd say) but to demean an e
In reply to:
This summer when we reopen I'll need a strong partner to forge through those remaining roofs, come for a visit and you can see how I got the gray hair first hand.
[image]http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/IMG_9930_

publish.JPG[/image]


sounds like you guys have a date! Take photos and let us know how it goes!


foeslts16


Dec 30, 2007, 7:20 AM
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Great read, truly inspiring.

That fact that he was ready to give it all up for this one assent - either do it or die seems rather careless to me.

This kind of attitude is not expressed by most of the "older/original/hard core climbers that I have had the opportunity to climb and learn from. Their mantra seems to be more inline with Ed Viestur’s saying “Getting to the summit is optional, getting down is mandatory.”

If your life and persona is so tied to your climbing successes, that you would be willing to give it all up for that assent – I feel sorry for that person.

The guys that I really respect are those who can do an extremely challenging climb and return to tell about it.


(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Dec 30, 2007, 7:27 AM)


healyje


Dec 30, 2007, 8:46 AM
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foeslts16 wrote:
The guys that I really respect are those who can do an extremely challenging climb and return to tell about it.

Well damn, if that isn't the whole trick of it, but sometimes the eye just fixes on something that the soul has to either follow or walk away from the whole affair that is climbing. Some of those obsessions are not without considerable peril. If you aren't sufficiently driven, it's stupid to leave the ground for that level of commitment. Assuming responsibility for navigating the unknown, including substantial risk, is what the heart and soul of onsight FAs and climbing is all about, regardless of how foreign the concept has become these days.


foeslts16


Dec 30, 2007, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
Well damn, if that isn't the whole trick of it, but sometimes the eye just fixes on something that the soul has to either follow or walk away from the whole affair that is climbing. Some of those obsessions are not without considerable peril. If you aren't sufficiently driven, it's stupid to leave the ground for that level of commitment. Assuming responsibility for navigating the unknown, including substantial risk, is what the heart and soul of onsight FAs and climbing is all about, regardless of how foreign the concept has become these days.

I never said anything about "substantial risk". That is part of the game we play, everytime I lead trad - I am ready for substantial risk.

The unknown factor is part of the reason I do alpine, ice, and rock climbing

But to say, hey lets jump on that route over there. I know the 2nd pitch has no pro, and if I can't stick every move I will take a ground fall and probably die. But i have to do it, that line is just to good to pass up. - that is as you stated an "obsession".

Your assumption that the concept of assuming responsibility for navigating the unknown, including substantial risk is a thing of the past - That is total crap.

A pathetic way to make people that fit into yr way of thinking sound hardcore.


healyje


Dec 30, 2007, 11:25 AM
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foeslts16 wrote:
Your assumption that the concept of assuming responsibility for navigating the unknown, including substantial risk is a thing of the past - That is total crap. A pathetic way to make people that fit into yr way of thinking sound hardcore.

I didn't say it was a thing of the past, I said it's a thing of the past for about 85% of today's climbers - there's a substantial difference between the two. The illusion that's marketed is substantial, but anyone who thinks the majority of today's climbers are interested in assuming risk as opposed to entertainment is kidding themselves - and that has nothing to do with me and my perception of myself or my climbing and everything to do with the reality of today's demographics.

How many FAs or FFAs have you done? What were they worth to you at the time? For most that I know, onsight trad FAs are exactly that - passionate and/or dark obsessions. Obsessions that can displace other priorities, goals, even dreams. And yes, they can easily cause one to dance the line between reason and what you'd likely consider intemperance. But then, not many accomplishments of note occur without accepting responsibility for a commensurate level of committment and risk.

The FAs of an endless number of rock lines, getting on an A5 aid line, or contemplating countless alpine objectives require no less committment than Haan describes from my perspective. Clearly the best way to manage risks is to lower your aim. But then, however sad, for some that just isn't an option once a seed of the plausible gets planted.


dingus


Dec 30, 2007, 3:04 PM
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foeslts16 wrote:
If your life and persona is so tied to your climbing successes, that you would be willing to give it all up for that assent – I feel sorry for that person.

The guys that I really respect are those who can do an extremely challenging climb and return to tell about it.

Hmmm, Peter Haan wrote that article in his 60s. He seems to be doing quite well to this punter.,

I've exchanged some posts with him over the years. He makes the point, repeatedly, about off width climbing in particular, that in the golden age and the 70s, when many of those fierce OWs first succumbed to the caress of men, they were done largely unprotected.

Things have changed. They have. Seems Mr. Haan has beeb fairly nimble in that regard, and here he is at this late date reminding us of how the world has turned.

It will turn back one day too. We Merkins are too rich now, to fucking fat as a people, to risk much of anything at all.

Is that weird? When you have nothing, risk doesn't seem to carry the same pack weight as when you have the rest of your life load in the pack right along side it.

I never festered about getting killed in the mountains till I had children....

DMT

ps. Climbers often put their lives in their own hands for momentary comfort issues, thru lapses, thru poor judgement, through haste. Here is an example of someone laying it all out apurpose. Takes stones, to do that?


dingus


Dec 30, 2007, 3:13 PM
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healyje wrote:
and everything to do with the reality of today's demographics.

I was thinking about this notion yesterday. Healyje comes from a generation of idealists - boomers. Idealists are usually if not always put ideals ahead of people.

To this generation that brought us clean climbing, brought us cams, and sport climbing, and lycra, and a host of other new fangled ideas - THANKS!

You are a bunch of rabble rousers, the lot of you.

I was born on the border, one foot in boomer country, the other in cynical X land. Xers are those who looked at all the hippies growinhg up, KNEW in their bones those whacky bastards were going to RUIN EVERYTHING. Now Xers go around in their mid 30s saying in cynical voices - 'told ya so.'

Xers are not the heir-apparent. They done had their time in the sun too. So the late 20s crowd, the 30-somethings? Move over too kids, the Ys are coming. They don't give a SHIT about old ideals, I assure you. They aren't cynical either, so get the fuck out of their way.

Me? My duality affords me all the idealist baggage of the boomers with the cynicism of knowing its all going to hell anyway.

I am a Bad Man.

DMT


punk_rocker333


Dec 30, 2007, 6:02 PM
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foeslts16 wrote:
That fact that he was ready to give it all up for this one assent - either do it or die seems rather careless to me.

If your life and persona is so tied to your climbing successes, that you would be willing to give it all up for that assent – I feel sorry for that person.

Haan expressed this ascent as beyond a religious experience. By taking such a large risk (death) he was living to the fullest. Life is about experiences and I bet that ascent accented his life. I don't understand how you can feel sorry for a person that was living their passion to the most ultimate level. I respect his bravery and hope that I may one day experience something like this.

(This post was edited by punk_rocker333 on Dec 30, 2007, 6:02 PM)


foeslts16


Dec 30, 2007, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
The illusion that's marketed is substantial, but anyone who thinks the majority of today's climbers are interested in assuming risk as opposed to entertainment is kidding themselves

I just don't see that, where are all these people who climb for entertainment? I can think of probably 1-2 people (out of about 100 climbers that I know in this area) who might fit into the entertainment climber category.

This mind-frame that the new generation of participants are: “doing this or that wrong”, “not living by the old way of thinking”, “not in the sport for the right reasons” is so funny.


foeslts16


Dec 30, 2007, 6:45 PM
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punk_rocker333 wrote:
Haan expressed this ascent as beyond a religious experience. By taking such a large risk (death) he was living to the fullest. Life is about experiences and I bet that ascent accented his life. I don't understand how you can feel sorry for a person that was living their passion to the most ultimate level. I respect his bravery and hope that I may one day experience something like this.

I guess you could see it that way.

As for "living life to the fullest" - If it takes these kinds of Life/Death decisons to make you feel like you are living life to the ultimate level - try jumping off a high bridge, throw yr rack away and start soloing 5.12 trad routes.

Any idiot can "bet it all" and throw caution to the wind and risk their very existence in the pursuit of a single thing. It makes you seem dangerous; willing to die for a cause, total commitment – willing to die for something must mean it is much more valid than anything else – Right? This may be why we don’t see a lot of these people around.

One last thing.....
Have you ever actually been in a situation where you were giving direct care/assistance to a person with life-threatening injuries. It changes things....


(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Dec 30, 2007, 7:23 PM)


dingus


Dec 31, 2007, 3:07 PM
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foeslts16 wrote:
Any idiot can "bet it all" and throw caution to the wind and risk their very existence in the pursuit of a single thing.

Sure. And they do.

But every now and then a person comes along who is not an idiot and chooses, once or a few times, to cross the line apurpose.

When these guys live to be old men, what's that say about their idiocy?

Cheers
DMT


foeslts16


Dec 31, 2007, 4:30 PM
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dingus wrote:
When these guys live to be old men, what's that say about their idiocy?

That they were lucky enough to have lived. How many others weren't so lucky. So if someone plays Russian roulette and actually lives, does this make them any different than Peter Hahn.


In reply to:
Peter Hahn:
..."I thought I could only answer these big emotional and spiritual questions in terms of this one climb, so to retreat now was also a major undertaking---it meant my complete demoralization and the trivialization of all eight years of my hard climbing and my search and yearning for true integrity."...

..."My whole climbing career was in front of me at that moment. I lashed at myself with this question: was I really going to do IT or was I going to be just another one of many who climbed in the Valley for a while, undistinguished, and then forgotten, left to bumble through the rest of a dim life empty-handed in some big spiritual way....

In reply to:
Peter Hahn:
"These two men came along because the puzzle of my life required I be on this major quest with no real competitors, only friends and hopefully, neutral parties, and enough bodies to handle my likely emergency. And guys that could keep our efforts a secret until the experience was complete."....

Bottom line for me at least:
This was nothing more than someone who wanted to "Be remembered and accepted by his peers, and justify to himself that all of his previous climbing meant something." ........Nothing special here.


dingus


Dec 31, 2007, 4:47 PM
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foeslts16 wrote:
So if someone plays Russian roulette and actually lives, does this make them any different than Peter Hahn.

Do you REALLY equate the two or are you just trying to make a point? The reason I ask is this... ANY fool with a finger can play Russian Roulette. Just as any fool could try the Left Side of the Hourglass in the style of the FA.

But it wasn't just any fool. It was Peter Haan, a man who'd tried and tested himself time and again, honed his skills and fitness and knew well the Rubicon he was about to cross before he left the ground.

All climbing is descretionary, Well, most of it is anyway, certainly the recreational part. And all climbingf is inherently risky, ultimately deadly to the Russian Roulette Fool.

You, me, Peter Hann, we each assume potentially deadly risks, or we don't climb. Climbers put a premium on 'self-control,' that ability to command one's mind and body and get them to obey. We congratulate ourselves when we advance that control, we admire those who exhibit the qualities we seek.

Here is one climber, and not the only one of course, but here is one climber who stepped out knowingly, crossed the line, danced on the razor's edge, and stepped back again, successful.

Of course he sought the approval of his peers. His peers were folks like Hot Henry Barber. That 'ultimate' self-control is something they were seeking and risk was the medium.

There are other ways to pursue ultimate self-control, just as there are other styles of climbing. Viva la difference! They're all good.

Finally, if you ever get the chance watch the vid taken in the mid-70s of Henry Barber on-sight soloing a couple of UK sea side routes, The Strand in particular - they show an unpolished grittiness to the business often lacking in today's Smoothfests where some practiced technician powers so easily through some outlandish solo it looks like 5.6. Here you see a top flight climber get into serious trouble, and then climb his way back out of it again.

Its disturbing (and nothing bad happens). And yet.... its CLIMBING.

Here is one of Peter Haan's peers today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPATnqHMiaE
Cheers
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 31, 2007, 4:56 PM)


foeslts16


Dec 31, 2007, 5:25 PM
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I agree with a lot of what you just said Dingus.

We have veered from the original discussion point that me and you started (mainly my fault).

I have a couple things that I want to make clear:

- As stated in my original post, I have no problems with accepting potentially deadly risks - it's just part of responsible of climbing.

- Peter Hann is just another climber to me. I can't understand why people have so much admiration for what they call "the great ones, or the hard-core climbers." There are SO many other old-school and new climbers that have done comparable feats, for the right reasons. Not for recognition by their peers, not to prove anything - they do it for themselves.

---
hero-worship
love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; "Many teenagers idolized the Beatles"

hero-worship
he·ro-wor·ship
tr.v. he·ro-wor·shiped or he·ro-wor·shipped, he·ro-wor·ship·ing or he·ro-wor·ship·ping, he·ro-wor·ships
1. To revere as an ideal.
2. To adulate.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com

---


(This post was edited by foeslts16 on Dec 31, 2007, 11:14 PM)


brutusofwyde


Dec 31, 2007, 8:45 PM
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foeslts16 wrote:
- Peter Hann is just another climber to me. I can't understand why people have so much admiration for what they call "the great ones, or the hard-core climbers." There are SO many other old-school and new climbers that have done comparable feats, for the right reasons. Not for recognition by their peers, not to prove anything - they do it for themselves.

Whatevah.

Truth is that trad died years ago. Old growtch grandtraddys and dad sporto's, move over. We thirteenyearold Bolderers shall inherit the earth!


paintrain


Dec 31, 2007, 11:10 PM
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I appreciate the perspective, I do. But I don't think these heros of yore would have shrugged off a big fat #6 camalot if someone handed it to them prior to their ascent. They mitigated the risk as best they could. They invented a good number of tools and techniques to help with that as well.

Paul Hahn certainly chose to clip the bolt of the FA prior to heading out the roof. So lets give up the idea that lycra, cams, and risk reduction really are part of the argument. If it were really the case, old school trad would be ground up, onsight, free solo. Mr Hahn felt a tracendence by hanging it out, almost a near death/cheating death experience. Would he have not done the climb if he could have protected it? Would the experience be less if he didn't have the do or die moment (probably not).

What was gained and sets the experience apart was a profound experience from sticking it out there. I don't argue about that at all - that is the essence of it. I agree with Healyje, that a good percentage of the climbing populace is risk adverse and chooses to climb for pure entertainment, but there is the 15% that trains on all mediums and does do some pretty remarkable stuff. But even commiting climbs (alpine or trad) we still pack a rope and gear with the attempt at mitigating risk, but with a realization that sometimes we have to stick it out there beyond the saftey of gear.

I don't argue some of the accomplishments of the 70s were remarkable. Climbing grades soared. Look at some of the old Pratt offwidths of the late 50s early 60s and you should be duly impressed. Gear to protect, just lagged behind the generations ability to climb. Some more creative types around here would haul up pre-cut 2x4s to protect offwidths in the desert for lack of anything else.

Todays generation are a by product of yours and mine, whatever group of boomer, X, Y, or wherever you fall. I don't deny that our entire society is risk adverse, germ adverse, too hot too cold too windy too humid too whatever adverse. Most folks don't get out of there temperature controlled bubbles of 60-72 deg F except to walk to their cars in a parking lot.

But some still choose to do it, they just happen to use the tools available to them. It is also purely subjective - one persons hanging it out is another's safe walk in the park. It is often ability level oriented. Some are constantly out there risking their necks because they don't realize their gear is shit - does that make them more trad although they don't realize they are on the verge of getting themselves killed?

Things will always change. Gear evolves. Experience is personal. Risk is risk. but the goal is always to come back from climbing with a smile and better for the experience. To say that todays generation is incapable of having the same experience of old is close minded. Trad isn't dead, it just doesn't use the same gear or read as much Kerouac.

PT


dingus


Jan 1, 2008, 1:36 AM
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Hmmm, not my heros actually. You guys mistook respect for worship. The point in mentioning their names at all is simply to ackknowledge they were each top flight climbers of their era. They weren't some dumbasses playing Russian Roulette as a party game.

Cheers
DMT


cchas


Jan 1, 2008, 4:23 AM
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healyje wrote:
cchas wrote:
Now what is a dying breed is hard alpine climbers. There are a bunch of people doing easy alpine but amoung the whole climbing community not a lot doing hard alpine.

There are 'hard' trad and alpine climbers today - but as a percentage of the total population of people who identify themselves as 'climbers' - their numbers have dropped precipitously from the '70s. What we have now is a massive and shallow pyramid of climbers, 85% or so who simply pull plastic and clip bolts at a beginning and intermediate level, with an exceptionally small percentage of the whole who percolate up to do amazing things.

That's a marked contrast to thirty years ago when there was a small total population, but one consisting of few beginners and made up of mostly intermediate and advanced climbers. The very best then were generated out of a much, much smaller base of largely competent climbers compared to today. That's because, before gyms and sport climbing, you learned fast or found another sport and the majority of 'climbers' today wouldn't have been then.

I have a hard time beliving this. I'm more inclined that its your perception based on the peopl ethat you were around. Where I grew up, in the 70's and early 80's (in the midwest) and then in the 80's early 90's (East Coast), I'd say that the vast majority were solid but strikely moderate climbers (not being deregatory though). Most were just trying to find there and found adventure in that 5.6 or 5.8 route. There were a very small group that was pushing it hard, but it was a small, insulated set of groups. I see the same things occuring today as I did back then. Some old farts would talk about the"good old days" and make deregatory comments about todays youth. The youth would at some point step out of the shadows, and make their own marks (good and bad).

I'm sort of like rgold, I've got quite a bit of grey up top, but if I can slam a cam in and crank through the latest crack being put up, sit out in the sun for an afternoon and have todays youth show me how its done, then its been a pretty good afternoon.

As for the old trad climbers (or alpine climbers) that have given it up and now clip bolts, I can completely understand. One of my friends gave up serious alpine when the last of his old partners died on a route in the himalayas in the winter. All of his old friends were dead- and thats a pretty heavy burden. Who's to say anything. -Another old sports climber I know spent his youth putting up R and X rated "hard" trad routes. For him, it lost the appeal- and again- who's to say.


(This post was edited by cchas on Jan 1, 2008, 4:35 AM)


jt512


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cchas wrote:
As for the old trad climbers (or alpine climbers) that have given it up and now clip bolts, I can completely understand. One of my friends gave up serious alpine when the last of his old partners died on a route in the himalayas in the winter.

Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of former trad climbers switched to sport climbing because it is more fun?

Jay


curt


Jan 1, 2008, 6:11 AM
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jt512 wrote:
cchas wrote:
As for the old trad climbers (or alpine climbers) that have given it up and now clip bolts, I can completely understand. One of my friends gave up serious alpine when the last of his old partners died on a route in the himalayas in the winter.

Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of former trad climbers switched to sport climbing because it is more fun?

Jay

Far more of them switched to bouldering--because it's more like trad climbing and not corruptible by weakmos. Cool

Curt


climbsomething


Jan 1, 2008, 6:13 AM
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cchas wrote:
As for the old trad climbers (or alpine climbers) that have given it up and now clip bolts, I can completely understand. One of my friends gave up serious alpine when the last of his old partners died on a route in the himalayas in the winter.

Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of former trad climbers switched to sport climbing because it is more fun?

Jay

Far more of them switched to bouldering--because it's more like trad climbing and not corruptible by weakmos. Cool

Curt
It isn't?

Then why do I boulder more than anything else now? And why did that guy start his sandy vagina thread about his girlfriend not being able to climb V0 at the gym?

I thought so!


curt


Jan 1, 2008, 7:12 AM
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climbsomething wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cchas wrote:
As for the old trad climbers (or alpine climbers) that have given it up and now clip bolts, I can completely understand. One of my friends gave up serious alpine when the last of his old partners died on a route in the himalayas in the winter.

Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of former trad climbers switched to sport climbing because it is more fun?

Jay

Far more of them switched to bouldering--because it's more like trad climbing and not corruptible by weakmos. Cool

Curt
It isn't?

Then why do I boulder more than anything else now? And why did that guy start his sandy vagina thread about his girlfriend not being able to climb V0 at the gym?

I thought so!

I think, more than anything else, you have helped to reinforce my point.

Curt


jaybro


Jan 1, 2008, 7:13 AM
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Re: [Torag7] Dying Breed? [In reply to]
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I think if you could see the real numbers, there are more 'trad' climbers now than ever. There weren't enough twenty years ago to support the industry that exists today. Wouldn't have been financially viable to make a #6 friend in '88, for instance. The only cams that size avaiible then stopped production shortly there after (I think).
It's just that there are a LOT more climbers now and 'Trad' (what an annoying descriptor) climbers are a smaller percent than ever before.

Happy new year all!


dingus


Jan 1, 2008, 2:23 PM
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I'm not convinced any of us have our fingers on the pulse. I don't think trad is dying at all. Period. While the Pursuit of Risk has morphed into the pursuit of atheletic performance I think there are folks aplenty seeking out the raw.

Oh, I think The General pretty much summed up in words what a lot of the converted risk climbers thought through. To paraphrase:

"If I kept on pushing routes like that (Burning Down the House) I knew I was going to eventually get killed."

Simple as that. Once again, a top climber known for pushing the boundaries of sanity takes a step back and walks away.

NOT... just another fool with a revolvger it would seem.

Cheers and happy new year
DMT


brutusofwyde


Jan 1, 2008, 6:21 PM
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We thirteen year olds are STILL gonna kick all you fat ancient farts aside. Rope, schmope.

Padz are whereizzat!


paintrain


Jan 1, 2008, 6:34 PM
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hahahhaah.

Practicing for the real thing. That is what a friend called bouldering and sport climbing.


jaybro


Jan 2, 2008, 2:42 AM
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Well put, Dingus. We will all be eaten (or at least get confronted with the threat...)by the logan's run kids of our own generations like Brutus reminded us.
-could be worse


(This post was edited by jaybro on Jan 4, 2008, 3:14 AM)


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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