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billcoe_
Dec 7, 2007, 8:22 PM
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Larry was saying why HE used Hexes.
If YOUR results are different: whoooo Friggan whooo (talkin to you Angry!). Thats fine too.
I use hexes much like Angus. Some routes take them sooo well, and love the light weight on long routes out in the middle of no-where too.
Sometimes I don't carry them. Beacon Rock has long straight sided cracks. They don't generally fit well and a cam is quicker, better and more likely to fit. Some areas like them: Smith and Red Rocks. But not all routes. Some.
I agree with Larry: slung hexes over wired, longer slings, works better. I just got some Rockcentics and like them over Chouinards/BD hexes though.
Thats my results.
It's a tool, and a good one at that: sometimes better, sometimes worse.
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norushnomore
Dec 7, 2007, 9:01 PM
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angry wrote: norushnomore wrote: Angry, so would you call climbing a sport or not? ... I have no qualms saying climbing isn't a sport. ... This is my personal definition, nothing formal.
I was worried there for a sec but no fear now. Back to cowbells discussion
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norushnomore
Dec 7, 2007, 9:06 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: WHY use hexes? In reply to: There is an often unrecognized Essential Truth Spare us your dogma.
Brutus, got dogma thread started just for you. Feel free to contribute
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TheDullEnd
Dec 7, 2007, 9:19 PM
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Safety and placements being equal, someone's choice of protection doesn't say any more about them than the clothes they wear. It's funny how someone can make their gear and ascent style a real component of their personality and a statement about who they are. This discussion has kind of become parallel to a talk about trendiness and fashion. Not to denigrate either field, it's definitely a valid discussion- just funny to see how a discussion of what you rack with has turned into a social commentary.
Climbing at your limit definitely takes a level of mental commitment and "being in the zone" that sending in the comfort level doesn't. For the most part, I like to see climbing as a journey not a competition- and people at the earlier stages who are still struggling deserve just as much respect as those who are more dialed in. It is what you make it and if 5.easy is fulfilling to you then awesome. I'm working to get into 5.10, the mental game's still a challenge for me. I respect people that can send harder, but I don't think I'm any less of a "climber".
Navel gazing aside, I have enough cams that I don't need hexes, but might get some in the middle sizes because they feel SOOOO good when you place them. I almost get aroused.
(This post was edited by TheDullEnd on Dec 7, 2007, 9:23 PM)
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cchildre
Dec 7, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Fashion?
Never thought of it that way. But then, my first trip out with my uncle, wore his harness and racked his cams and hexes for the hike out at E-rock. Made him easy to find, scrambling around, but LOL, I always thought he did it just to look cool, because his gear was so old and tattered, neither one of us was about to really trust it.
I also feel a whole lot stronger climbing with my pimped out C-3's, in lieu of my old K-Martesque Rock Empires. At least while I am stomping around the landing, stretching, puffing, and swinging my arms like a prize fighter. I look pretty cool....but then I start climbing and the persona fades as I wet my Prana's, and tear the sleeve off the new Patagonia top as I barn door and deck for the start of "Pink Bunnies of Death!" a nasty 5.7.......+.....ohhhh....see the plus...that's right....BAD ASS! Girls dig the scars where I snapped my ankles now too.
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onceahardman
Dec 7, 2007, 11:01 PM
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In reply to: do you want me to tell you that in the last month I've onsighted (though I don't look down on someone's redpoint) a half dozen trad routes (and yes, I place passive gear if needed) a full number grade harder than your best?
frankly, I'm not interested in what you climb. Your statements indicate that "pushing the limits" requires cams over hexes is wrong.
when you are doing 14d/15a, using cams, THEN you are pushing the limits.
Then, go climb Devils Thumb in Alaska, a Fred Beckey V 5.6....and you tell me what's harder.
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angry
Dec 7, 2007, 11:25 PM
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onceahardman wrote: My highest personal number was old-school trad 11b, on wires, cams, and even a hex. On-sight. (not your "redpoint" poorer style).
You asked, I answered. When my answer didn't fit your question, you quit playing.
Sorry if I offended you dude. I'm just calling it how I see it.
(This post was edited by angry on Dec 7, 2007, 11:33 PM)
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onceahardman
Dec 8, 2007, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: Apples and oranges and you know it. There's lots of hard things in this world
in the same way,onsight climbing 5.11 in EBs, using hexes and unwired nuts, is apples.
Oranges are climbing 5.12 in sticky rubber with cams, or 5.13+ with bolts, while hangdogging.
you are mistaking an improvement in technology with an increase in difficulty, or , as Reinhold Messner put it, you are carrying your courage in your rucksack.
Only when you are playing the same game can you compare standards.
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ja1484
Dec 8, 2007, 12:12 AM
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I'm almost loathe to put it out there because I'm so entertained, but Angry, exactly how many notches have you added to the bottom of the bridge in this thread so far?
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angry
Dec 8, 2007, 10:28 AM
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ja1484 wrote: I'm almost loathe to put it out there because I'm so entertained, but Angry, exactly how many notches have you added to the bottom of the bridge in this thread so far?
I'm knocking them dead. This aint no catch and release, it's a massacre.
The key is to answer questions seriously for a while, get a little reputation, and BAM! blast em with an arguement no-one can win and justify it with spray you can back up.
This won't be my biggest fish fry, but I'm a sportsman, I enjoy being in the boat.
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jc5462
Dec 8, 2007, 10:39 AM
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Interesting thread. After seeing the picture of Fritz Weissner (Who was still climbing in his late 80's) it made me think of my first climbing trip to Devils Tower in the mid 80's. My partner and I combined racks and managed to have 2 sets of stoppers, 2 sets of Hexes, #6  Tri-Cams, some Forrest Titons and 2 "BONGS" and managed to climb the "Durrance Route", TAD and I think it was Walt Baily Memorial. Anyhow we had climbers who chuckled as we walked up the trail, due to the "Clanging" of the "Cowbells" and the surprise we were going to climb without any Cams. Later in the afternoon, one of the parties was bailing off "Sundance"? and when we asked why, the response was that they had ran out of #4 cams, and did not know how they could finish. This happened to be the route which Weissner originally had climbed on the first ascent (Technical) with rope soled shoes, hemp rope and a few pitons.
All this gear is just tools of the trade, and you can either buy every tool to cover each need or learn to master a few and still get the work done. I can remember back then when I had no cams, then I got my first 2 and would place a cam and then feeling secure would then take my time to get in a decent passive piece, because we did not want to waste the cam in case we needed it up higher. We used to climb with a lot of "Stacked pieces" and place some nuts in opposition. We did some offwidths using stacked hexes and the #16 Titon (You could step on it like a ladder rung! and it was tough to resist). I always recommended to new leaders to start with passive gear, as it taught better use of the crack, how to eye the best plcements, how to improvise, and many will tell you they are better leaders because you had to do more than just clip a bolt or plug in a cam. Don't get me wrong, I own so much gear, including over 100 cams and can agree it is faster and safer with the cams, but they are heavier and they also have limitations too
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dingus
Dec 8, 2007, 2:29 PM
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Its the man's smile that gets me. All the techno-gear-faggotry is one thing, don't get me wrong. But climbing?
I'm going for that smile. The rest is just gear wankery.
Cheers
DMT
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larryd
Dec 8, 2007, 5:10 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: ... Spare us your dogma. ...
Et tu, Brutus?
the complaint of novices offends me not. But this! The most unkindest cut of all. . .
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ja1484
Dec 8, 2007, 5:40 PM
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larryd wrote: brutusofwyde wrote: ... Spare us your dogma. ... Et tu, Brutus? the complaint of novices offends me not. But this! The most unkindest cut of all. . .
Well, if you don't want your bullshit called as such, it's best not to parade it around as fact.
Often Unrecognized Essential Truths are things like:
- Women can't drive
- Promiscuous sex is waaay better than being pious
- Sport climbing is neither
Etc.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 8, 2007, 5:41 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 8, 2007, 7:40 PM
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Hexes are a pain in the ass most times. Other than the fact that they make an ok hammer in the summer and a piton in the winter they would have no other real use except to identify the gumbys with the cowbells at the crags. When I first started I had a small rack of hexes and nuts, that was well over 20years ago. Now I have a huge rack of cams and nuts. I know of exactly one climb where a hex is the best placement at one of the cruxes. I still have 2 hexes and rarely carry them. Ocasionaly on long trad climbs I carry the #11 just so I have a hammer handy and annother 3" piece but I could easily do without.
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ja1484
Dec 8, 2007, 7:55 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Hexes are a pain in the ass most times. Other than the fact that they make an ok hammer in the summer and a piton in the winter they would have no other real use except to identify the gumbys with the cowbells at the crags. When I first started I had a small rack of hexes and nuts, that was well over 20years ago. Now I have a huge rack of cams and nuts. I know of exactly one climb where a hex is the best placement at one of the cruxes. I still have 2 hexes and rarely carry them. Ocasionaly on long trad climbs I carry the #11 just so I have a hammer handy and annother 3" piece but I could easily do without.
Dunno where you've done most of your climbing, but in the West there seems to be a lot of granite with downward tapering cracks that'll take a Hex or a cam, but of course with the Hex there aren't walking issues, weight issues, etc. Very few things make me feel as warm and fuzzy as an endwise hex placement.
Here in NC of course, we are Masters of the Tricam, because our state has a weirdass love affair with Funky Pods, Non-Parallel Cracks, and Weird Horizontals.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 8, 2007, 7:56 PM)
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sky7high
Dec 8, 2007, 8:38 PM
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why use hexes? Oh, I dunno, maybe because I like shiny metal stuff that sounds like a bell.
anyway, I'm willing to bet that 20? 50? 100? years into the future, people will still argue about hexes, and the same shitty old arguments such as "nothing feels as bomber as passive pro" or "they're just hammers" or "the advancement of climbing... -insert grade-related rant here- ... therefore, hexes are shit" will be used.
Bottm line: whatever suits YOU best.
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 8, 2007, 9:08 PM
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Ja don't know where you do most of your climbing west or east but chances are fairly good that I been climbing near as long as you have been alive and I can say with pretty good certanty that your weight to usefulness ratio favors the cams 100 to 1 . Shit I did a two week western trip once were we spent most of the time in UTAH and CO. placed a Grand total of 2 tricams and about 5 stoppers. The rest of the trip was all cams baby. Love to see how much fun you would have thrashing your way up generic crack without cams... can be done for shure but I am too old and smart fer that shit Other trips the ratio is diferent depending on where you climb. Red rocks for instance eats up stoppers. Been to Seneca 9 times ad never needed to place a hex or a tricam. Hexes are basicly a waste of fucking money. I just happen to own the 2 big ones from back in the day otherwise no effin way would I throw my change away on one
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wmfork
Dec 8, 2007, 9:28 PM
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onceahardman wrote: in the same way,onsight climbing 5.11 in EBs, using hexes and unwired nuts, is apples. Oranges are climbing 5.12 in sticky rubber with cams, or 5.13+ with bolts, while hangdogging.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But from your comments it seems that you are just as unwilling to play with the "new" rules of the game as those who decide climbing with hex is going backward. We can all invent games going arbitrary steps back of human evolution. Heck, shoes are new school. I can out-climb a lot of people (who otherwise would out-climb me) barefooted. Do I enjoy great gratification thinking I'm bad-ass? Not really. It is no longer the rule of game (with few exceptions where that helps).
And if you can't climb 5.12, cams or not, you are just making a straw-man argument.
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ja1484
Dec 8, 2007, 9:47 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Other trips the ratio is different depending on where you climb. Red rocks for instance eats up stoppers. Been to Seneca 9 times ad never needed to place a hex or a tricam. )]
It is very locale-specific, I'd agree. I just spent two months in Arizona (Sept, Oct) and placed mostly stoppers while I was there, a few cams mixed in, and some large hexes. Did mostly crack climbs and routes that had large portions of crack to them - all different widths from fingers to chimneys.
I noticed after the first two weekends that bringing Tricams along was a waste of time, but the majority of the gear I placed was passive.
It's also amusing when people try to break out years climbing as some kind of metric. Experience counts for a lot, but years don't = experience :-)
Calling hexes a waste of money is melodramatic at best. I wouldn't call them essential gear, but get to know em and they have their uses for sure.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 8, 2007, 9:50 PM)
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onceahardman
Dec 8, 2007, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: But from your comments it seems that you are just as unwilling to play with the "new" rules of the game as those who decide climbing with hex is going backward.
Well,that is false. I like sport, and have done some 12s. But that's beside the point. 12 on bolts is not harder than 11 on gear. (IMO). At this stage of my career, I use sport and top rope for training. I enjoy getting away from crowds, and doing FAs, and not reporting them. I'm glad people are happy about higher numbers, but I don't think most of you are really accomplishing much besides getting your name in a book for doing what is now mid-grade difficulty.
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camhead
Dec 8, 2007, 10:01 PM
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HELLO SOMETIMES I LIKE TO CLIMB HARD BUT I'M NOT VERY GOOD AT IT AND I HAVE HEXES BUT NEVER USE THEM CUZ I AM THE CAMHEAD AND BESIDES ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO LIKE HEXES ARE JUST PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE I'VE CLIMBED FIVE ELEVEN ON JUST PASSIVE AND FIVE EIGHT ON JUST ACTIVE SO WHAT AND ANGRY IS MOSTLY TALK BUT NOT AS MUCH AS DINGUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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alexmac
Dec 9, 2007, 12:41 AM
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Bah, use all big bros :)
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