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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2002, 9:46 PM
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Fall on trad?
No, thanks.
Good gear? I don't always have the option of placing good gear. Of course, it depends. As others noted, in the backcountry, if I get seriously injured, I'll likely be dead before word ever reaches civilization.
So the gear is bomber. How long is long enough? 30 feet? we're talking about only a 12 foot runout here. 60 feet? 25 foot runout plus slack stretch and slop in the system.
It depends. But in the situations I usually find myself, falling is not an option. Downclimb or grab that good gear. Since I only crank 5.6, yes, I'm talking about lower angled stuff. But I've climbed on 4th class where if I fell, the rope would only be good for locating the bodies.
Brutus (first post here)
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beyond_gravity
Nov 3, 2002, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
If you can't trust the gear, then why even place it.
I hate it when people say this. I dont trust gear because i'm new to trad, and neither did you.
why the hail do you think I place gear?
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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2002, 11:21 PM
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Don't know about the rest of you, but when I place one of Tom Kasper's Valley Giants, it
lightens the rack considerably.
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edgelounger
Nov 4, 2002, 4:07 PM
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i don't want die, i'm not ready yet
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climber_andy
Nov 4, 2002, 5:12 PM
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I took my first lead fall pretty early in my lead career, at least compared to most of the guys I lead with. I think it was my 2nd or 3rd lead and my friend picked out a "nice" crack climb, supposed to be rated within my limits. I struggeled my way about 3/4 up it when I bombed off onto a #10 nut, just too pumped to keep on. It wasn't exactly a long fall, but it was still scary until I realized my gear held. Fell twice on that piece actually, then gave up and let my friend finish it. He gets up to the top, and tells me we should check the guide book. Yeah, he had me on the wrong climb, and it was rated about 2 ranks harder than anything I'd led.
At least I felt better about falling off something harder than I could handle than something I thought was within my limits. And I do a pretty good job of checking the guide book myself now.
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estwing
Nov 4, 2002, 5:58 PM
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I don't fall on gear, because I find that it is difficult enough to clean already.
That is the only reason, I swear(ha,ha, ha)!
Have a nice day,
Sam
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tanner
Nov 4, 2002, 6:44 PM
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I only place gear to make easy climbs feel harder and so I can buy cool looking toys that come in a bunch of nice colors:lol: Fall on gear? I just don't fall On trad. I climb a few grades lower on trad so falling shouldn't be a problem. But the gear is there if I need it. Its just like I wont fall soloing or running somthing out. I don't like falling!!!
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ckostas
Nov 4, 2002, 6:58 PM
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In response to your post, I would like to add that I think falling, regardless of whether it's trad (gear) or sport (bolts), is dependent upon a multitude of factors and not limited to one certain situation.
As a lead climber, before I start a route, I take into consideration a number of things. The weather, have I been on this climb before, did I drink to much last night, how many pitch's, the beginning or the end of the day, and whats the difficulty all play into the how aggressive I am going to be on a certain climb. After I have done a quick consideration of those pieces of the puzzle, I adjust how aggressive I'm going to be. Hence, the fall factor goes up or down.
But when it's all said and done, I am way more confident in placing my own pro vs. a bolt placed by someone else. Yes gear can fail whether it falls out or pops out, but the same can be said for a bolt put in by who knows. So I guess the question you have to ask yourself before you jam up a route, is whether you trust "bob the bolt placer" or that #1 friend you just stuck in a crack?
smitty
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wanlessrm
Nov 14, 2002, 11:26 PM
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Have her carry you too and from the wall on her back so she can understand her duties in case of a nasty fall!
She won't want you to fall after that!
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holdplease2
Dec 18, 2002, 3:02 AM
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I lead trad and sport 5.9, low 10 on both. Hate to fall on both. Fallen many times. Injuries include rash, sprained ankles, flappers, could have happened on trad or sport and have happened on both. (Not a great climber, but do try hard)
I learned to lead trand on sandstone in KY and Red Rocks, and later in Gunks. The same placment offers different security depending on the rock. And you never know the rock 100%, though experience brings sounder judgement.
1) Trad gear is pricy, why get it stuck or broken if you don't have to.
2) Show her how a placement can be good, but also show her how many variables it takes to make a good placement. One error (not sighting a crack, thinking the rock is more solid than it is, whatever) could make a big difference.
I've never pulled gear, but I bet I have climbed above gear that could have pulled, sometimes knowing, sometimes not.
And unlike sport climbing, you didn't see your gear hold 10 guys as a test before it had to hold you. Right-o?
It could be that your girlfriend, like some of the rest of us (me) was afraid to fall above bolts before she got used to it.
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radistrad
Dec 18, 2002, 3:17 AM
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the leader must not fall is an "old school" term. Back in the day, when they used piton and hemp ropes they tied around their waist, they did not want to fall as it would be horrible.
On my last trip to the Valley one of our leader took 3 whippers on the same piece.
Properly placed gear is not likely to fail.
It all comes with experience and pratice.
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madclimberboy
Dec 20, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Because you really never know what could happen. You could smack your head (if you didn't have a helmet on), or injure yourself in some way for one. Second, a piece could break, pop out, or fail in some way, or the seemingly faultless rock could break when you fall on it. Also your rope, you know, only can handle a certain number of falls it can take before you probably should retire it, and you most likely want to keep your rope as long as possible. There are many risks involved in falling (especially long distances) while trad leading. Therefore you really should be careful about not falling while climbing, unless of course it's your greatest pleasure in life!
Matt
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tkambitsch
Dec 22, 2002, 10:21 PM
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I've not fallen on gear yet, but I did deck once before I had a chance to place my first piece. I fell only about 8 feet but it really hurt.
I'm reminded of it often as my meager 5.4-5.7 routes are filled with ledges and other hazards about every 8 feet!
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diplodocus
Dec 23, 2002, 2:52 PM
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Once I place a yellow alien in a slightly flaring crack. Gave it a yank before clipping in the rope and it popped out! (because there was some slippery moss in the crack that I could not see from my angle) Put some fear into me about the possibility of it doing the same thing if I ever take a fall on any pro.
Plus, falling on trad often means some injury that hurts (sometime very painful), unlike gym, where you very seldom get hurt.
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graniteboy
Dec 23, 2002, 8:38 PM
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Whether falling on Trad lead is "scary" or not is completely situationally dependent. If the pro is great and the fall line is clean, then, yippeee. fall if you want. BUT, if the fall entails whacking a ledge, or pulling pro and then whacking a ledge face first and having a baby pigeon stuffed up your nose from the impact, then FORGET IT.
I disagree strongly with ATG 2000's statement that hard routes have clean falls; Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. sometimes 5.12 trad has death fall potential, and sometimes 5.6 has a nice clean flight zone. I've quit climbing with more than one sport climber because they thought it was OK to fall on poorly protected trad or ice or mixed routes. The point is; you need judgement for assessing a trad fall, which many people don't have yet. Work into it slowly and steadily and pay your dues.
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tim
Dec 23, 2002, 9:08 PM
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I'm so happy that graniteboy is still around... the above is a rather concise presentation of why it's not usually a bright idea to take wingers on trad routes, whether hard or easy.
I almost took a 40 footer yesterday. Clean, but still not what I wanted to do with my day. Look at some of the 'VS' routes in Eldorado Canyon -- just because it's 5.12 doesn't mean you can't break every bone in your body if you pop off. 'DFU' for sure.
Besides, it's more fun to finish the route.
(edit: to clarify, I'm not saying that trad gear will never hold a fall; I've taken numerous lead falls on gear. But whether it's safe is totally route-dependent. You can %@#$ yourself up bad even on hard routes at the Gunks, for example, if you fall wrong)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-23 13:09 ]
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easysteve
Jan 6, 2003, 6:11 AM
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Who wants to fall? Nothing's certain...
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