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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:15 AM
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A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
Do any of you use this system while climbing? If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement?
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micahmcguire
Oct 31, 2002, 12:25 AM
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I would have to say, forget the fifi hook. If you can use a carabiner then do it. There is no chance of a carabiner slipping off of an anchor, a fifi hook can come undone with a mere inappropriate movement. Hope that answer is even related to your question, if not I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the question.
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punk
Oct 31, 2002, 12:32 AM
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Yeah….I have seen this and IMHO there is no more miserable inelegant and pathetic way to lead ice then this method
If u cant place the screw holding on to your tools without resting on fifi then ….DON’T LEAD ICE
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drector
Oct 31, 2002, 12:36 AM
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I edited this to take back all of my comments because I misread the original post. Attaching a fifi to an ice tool stuck inthe ice is beyond my ice climbing experience.
Dave
[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-11-01 11:14 ]
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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:40 AM
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I was talking about resting and placing ice screws while on lead, when resting on the rope is not an option.
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-10-30 16:42 ]
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beyond_gravity
Oct 31, 2002, 12:46 AM
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How do you hang off the screw and place it at the same time
You should try place screws in a resting position, try to get off your front points, get a solid tool placement and hang off your LEASH
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mainline
Oct 31, 2002, 12:48 AM
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You don't hang off the screw. You hang off your tool. Read the first post carefully.
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bradhill
Oct 31, 2002, 12:55 AM
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Just stick your tool over your head and drape the rope over the head of the tool while you're placing the screw. Many tools have a notch or guide just for this purpose. I don't actually weight it, but it's an OK backup without futzing around with a fifi.
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coclimber26
Oct 31, 2002, 3:17 AM
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There's nothing wrong with the fifi. Just make sure that the cord between your harness and the hook is long enough so you don't put asmuch outward pressure on the tool. I would sink it about a foot above my head and use the eyelet above the spike to clip the fifi. Watchout for outward pull and make sure you get a good purchase..
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tradklime
Oct 31, 2002, 6:14 PM
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I think this was more common practice when screws were difficult to place. With the recent introduction of express screws, etc. It's less common. Many people consider it bad style, but who cares, to each his own. However, if you are doing an FA, some don't consider it legitimate if you hang on the route. Try to learn not to, it will serve you better in the long run, but if you are pumped and scared it can help save your ass.
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rockprodigy
Oct 31, 2002, 11:05 PM
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That's pretty bad style if you ask me...if you're afraid of falling, flip the rope over the top of your tool, then place the screw...it essentially gives you a toprope, but if you weight it, you're aid climbing.
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holygecko
Nov 1, 2002, 2:28 PM
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they make a ice climbing piece, that serves as a fifi hook it is made by black diamond it is called the spectre our somethin
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tradklime
Nov 1, 2002, 5:11 PM
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Some people consider ice climbing a type of aid climbing because of the reliance on gear to climb. Anyway, I once say a video with Alex Lowe climbing Octopussy and he hooked a biner on a piece of pro to make a move...
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 5:16 PM
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A spectre is a pound in barbed hook for pro in iced cracks or wherever you can get it. A Fifi is for hanging on gear, big difference.
The number one rule of ice climbing is don't fall - if hanging on gear or hooking a piece can keep you from falling, do it. But don't report the climb in good style.
Aid from the rope to place gear is exactly that, and is not considered a clean lead.
josh
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rockprodigy
Nov 1, 2002, 5:45 PM
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I know of the video you're referring too, but that was shot a long time ago and is no longer considered apropriate. People used to say that you were only "aid climbing" if you used aid slings...you could pull on gear all day long, if you didn't stand in slings (hence the term "french free")...obviously times have changed.
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 6:10 PM
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I think that pulling on gear being defined as poor style happened approximately a long f*cking time before anyone climbed Octopussy. I can't really venture to guess but there are a lot of reasons for pulling on / hooking gear - didn't want to fall, climb too hard, climb not in condition, feature broke off, balls shriveled (not likely in this case I guess though, heh).
..josh
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 6:34 PM
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Didn't mean to imply that flippin the rope over a tool is aid - however, hanging from anything other than your leashes or the handles of your tools with your hand strength is aid and is not a clean ascent.
I agree - don't fall. But if you hang to place gear then you've hung. Would you tell someone you repointed a sport route if you took halfway up, or clipped your waste into one draw to make a big reach out overhead to that gnarly clip in the middle of the roof? Didn't think so.
josh
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beyond_gravity
Nov 2, 2002, 4:20 PM
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Ah, i get it.
I dont see anything wrong with it. There are alot of questions of purity these days...I say shut up and climb. Did you use that bridge on the approch? OMG, your ascent of that peak is no longer valid!
If you wanna hand off your tool go for it. Lots of times it's not about how you climb single pitch, it's about if reach the summit.
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brianthew
Nov 2, 2002, 4:32 PM
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I'm agreeing with b_g here...American alpinist Mark Twight said that it was the experience that counts, not the climb. Although he was a purist of style, just because your climb wasn't up to anyone else's standards means nothing. If you need such a rest go for it, as long as you can reconcile it with yourself and still have a fun climb.
Just $0.02
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punk
Nov 2, 2002, 6:11 PM
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It still a very bad form and if u need to do that u shouldn’t climb at this grade u should back down and look for a climb that fit your abilities the reason for purity in style is to match the ability to the climb and NOT to jump over your belt…this way u will avoid getting yourself to dangerous situations
The problem is that most of us have an ego “bigger then life” and it is very hard to come to the realization that we cant do it at the present time…. there is no problem working the route or comparable problem on TR but resting on fifi is the worst form of leading which will open the door to more desperate situation that will eventually lead to injury or worse
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darkside
Nov 2, 2002, 7:12 PM
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Quote:In ice climbing, the only bad form is falling
---may not be verbatim. Source unknown.
Quote:Aid Climbing - n The use of anything other than the natural rock features to make progress up the rock. (antonym: freeclimbing)
---RC.com's definition of climbing terms.
For the record here, I have not used tethers. I did buy a Fifi but have never taken it on a climb. Not even sure where it is at the moment. I will often pass the rope over the head of a tool while placing a screw as temporary protection but not to hang from.
To all the style/ethics police: Some have refered to tether's and fifi's here as aid but if aid is the use of equipment to make upward progress then what about the use of tools and crampons.
Use of these pieces of equipment aside, could you please explain your rationale for the difference between a leash to your wrist and one to your harness. I think your positions on this point are contradictory.
It is true that completing a climb without resorting to the use of a tether takes a greater effort and therefore should be worthy of greater merit. However this is a matter for you and your own self-esteem, and not to be forced on others as good or bad style. Falling on ice is NOT like falling on rock. It is a lot more dangerous. Therefore anyone advising a person to take unneccessary risk is guilty of advising that person in bad style.
The use of tethers is a matter of risk management, not of style. So I say that if you make the personal choice to use a fifi then so be it. Just make sure the tool placement is sound.
Fifi vs falling:- which one really is bad form?
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takeit4granite
Nov 2, 2002, 10:04 PM
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Strictly from a safety stand point it is not a good idea! A tool weighted from your harness is tough to keep an eye on, it can (and will) pop when you least expect it. I have done first aid on several ice climbers and the injuries are often serious.
Treat leading on ice with the old school rule "The leader must not fall" learn and progress slowly! If you want to push yourself physically try sport mixed climbing on bolts, the falls are typically more clean.
Who ever thinks ice climbing is aid climbing should try both and see for them selves if the PUMP you get from ice is closer to rock or aid climbing!!!
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beyond_gravity
Nov 3, 2002, 8:04 PM
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I can't believe this. Who are any of you to say whats right and whats wrong??
As long as you dont claim a free-ascent, pull on the Fifi all you want!
Sure your tool can pop...but your tool can pop even if your not hanging on it with your harness.
Also: Whoever said that if you need to rest you shouldnt be on the climb. Well, genius, of course you shouldn't be on the climb! If you have to rest you probably arn't having fun! But you can't exactly downclimb, at least without resting. and if your so pumped that you need to rest good luck setting up a V-thread.
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punk
Nov 3, 2002, 9:02 PM
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Quote:
A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
To my understanding they kept on climbing…so the issue of emergency is not applicable
Quote:
Do any of you use this system while climbing?
I Definitely not
Quote:
If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement? A friend of mine recently told me that she had seen people attach a daisy chain with either a Fifi hook or carabiner to their harness while ice climbing. When they place a screw, they attach the hook to their tool and rest on it.
I don’t use this method and it is sound like direct aid practice to me… so decides what u climb
Quote:
Do any of you use this system while climbing? If so, what do you do with the hook when you are not resting on it? Also, where would you attach the hook to minimize the possibility of pulling the tool from its placement?
Who ever is using this method attach a FIFI HOOK (reads aid) to a daisy chain (reads aid …again) or directly to the harness (guess what …aid again)…and yes u will have a substantial risk of the tool pulling out under the pressure
Leashless climbing vs. leashes climbing BOTH has pros and cons in each method …
Leashes
Pro:
U will not drop a tool
U can have a self-belay for each tool placement (and if u would like to avoid this U can extend the leashes to a point that there is a small loop under your tool)
Tool shape more adaptable to all general situation u may encounter
Con:
Time consuming to get in and out the leash (i.e. placing screws, creating v thread etc)
Hazardous if u fall b/c the tools still attached to you
Leashless
Pro:
Easy to change hands (i.e. match hand on the tool, place screws, rigging rappel etc)
More efficient movements with less fumbling time
More natural swing to the tool
Clean fall
Con:
U will drop your tools
The tool has very limited use in the mountains
Can’t get self belay from the leashes
So here u have it Im sure there is more pros and cons for each method that I did forgot to mention but climbing ice with or without it is matter of preference and not style
What u gain in one system u lose in the other and I tried them both…and I rather not having the chance of dropping my tools while on the climb
Bottom line is
Resting on fifi while placing a screw is a BAD FORM of leading ice as a method…period
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pbjosh
Nov 3, 2002, 9:57 PM
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I'm with Punk - resting on a fifi is bad form, no matter what. Don't get on climbs that are over your head. If you do, rest on gear not on your tool, a tool that you're resting on is set to hit you in the head/face if it blows...
josh
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paintinhaler
Nov 3, 2002, 11:12 PM
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Very good point, -pbjosh-
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mainline
Nov 4, 2002, 12:10 AM
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I'm the one who started this thread and I have to say that I have learned a lot. All of the techniques that people have listed here are worth knowing. You never know when you might find yourself in a situation where you will need to use one of them. Especially with the constantly changing nature of ice in a mountain environment. What is WI 3 one day could be WI 4 another.
I just finished watching an ice climbing video on Jeff Lowe, and he specifically pointed out the technique of resting on his ice tools with a daisy chain. Many great rock and alpine climbs have involved some sort of aid, and by definition using ice tools is aid climbing. Many of today's best ice and mixed climbers consider using leashes poor form and an unfair advantage. I am not about to run home and take off my leashes. I could care less if other people think I am using poor form if I pull on some gear to make it past a couple of hard rock moves or rest on my tool on an ice pitch. More important to me is that I get to explore the mountains in a safe and fun manner while impacting the natural environment as little as possible.
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-11-03 16:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-11-03 16:12 ]
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darkside
Nov 5, 2002, 12:25 AM
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I re-iterate
Quote:In ice climbing, the only bad form is falling.
---may not be verbatim. Source unknown.
While there is a risk in weighting a tool, that risk lies in the placement of the tool and the direction of pull. With a good placement and sharp pick, the teeth will bite harder into the ice as this is the way they are designed to work. If there were such a rule as not weighting a tool then there would be a rule against using one as part of a belay anchor would there not? Passing a rope over the tool while placing a screw would also be a bad idea surely. Its all in how the tool is used and there is no hard or fast rule to cover all situations.
I have still seen no explanation for how a leash to the wrist is different to one to a harness? A leash is a leash, be it to a wrist or a harness.
To improve you must climb at your limits and when you are doing so you have to recognise when to back off. If this happens to be mid-pitch then you have to do all you can to avoid falling and if that involves the use of fifi's, leashes, or tethers then so be it.
To hell with style, to hell with the style police, avoid falling and you avoid bad form.
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punk
Nov 5, 2002, 6:10 AM
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Quote:
I have still seen no explanation for how a leash to the wrist is different to one to a harness? A leash is a leash, be it to a wrist or a harness
There couldn’t be more wrong statement then this
Now, lets look at the body skeleton:
What we looking for is the center of gravity of the human skeleton look at the spot that marked with X (i.e. COG) where if u don’t mind me reminding u... is the back support of the harness…can u see where Im going with this …
U can also try these fun experiments
Now after all of this …did u ever stopped to ask Uhmmm why the climbing harness design the way it is and why don’t we climb with handcuff around our hands just incase we fall…(I will belay u anytime just to see u doing this on 5.11 just to see what happens when u fall…. )
The reason is plain and simple …. IT IS NOT THE HUMAN BODY CENTER OF GRAVITY
There for attaching anything to your harness and resting of it means u take the weight of your limbs and u solely subject it to the harness in order …remember, TO REST!!!...
then and only then u can fully rest and not subject your body to gravity (coming from the point that your intermediate anchor didn’t blow out)
Therefor, resting on anything that attaches to your harness (rope included) is a form of aid b/c you areNOT supporting your body with your limbs against gravity... u just succumb to gravity all together and resting on artifice platform
Bottom line is:
There is NO COMPARING of resting on your leashes to resting on your harness or any thing attached to it
Having to use fifi as a method of climbing ice is a bad form…Sorry to break it to you and again look at my previous posts in regard to the diverse situations and how to NOT ACQUIRING DANGEROUS BAD CLIMBING HABITS
Peace
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darkside
Nov 6, 2002, 2:55 AM
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OK my friend, at the risk of this seeming argumentative I will continue this debate as devil's advocate. Please note my earlier posts in so far as I do not use the practice of fifi's or tethers, only leashes on the tools.
Using your analogy of center of gravity, you are saying that support from a leash/tether is acceptable depending on it's attachment point to the skeletal system. To extend your analogy to a sport route, is it then acceptable to grab a draw with the hands as long as it is not clipped into the harness. Although this would enable the climber to rest it would not be a proper rest as when clipped into the draw.
I submit that this rationale is merely one of semantics and that the support of any kind be it to wrists or waist constitutes what others have referred to as 'aid'. As such it has to be all or nothing with leashes of any kind being acceptable or none at all. If artificial support is to be considered bad form then you have to forego the leashes to the wrist or at the very least extend it beyond support. Almost no one has leashes adjusted in this manner though so the degree of support should not be the guide for good or bad form as your explanation leads me to believe.
I'm afraid I cannot find enough to your debate to sway me from my belief in falling as the true display of bad form. Of course one can always claim greater merit in a climb by climbing without fifi or tether.
Yes you have convinced me there is a difference between form and merit. I stand by my views on form and as for merit, well that is a matter of how we present ourselves to others. At the end of the day we should climb for ourselves and leave the matter of leashes to our own self esteem, not the dictates of others.
Bad form has no merit.
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punk
Nov 6, 2002, 3:11 AM
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Honestly we beating a dead cow…u convince of your way and Im in mine I think the points has been made and Im not here for the argument sake I pass the facts as I know them …if u would like to bicker and ticker and find an arguments just for the sake of it god help u and me I just don’t have it in me
Enough said
peace
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darkside
Nov 6, 2002, 3:42 AM
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Then there the debate will end. Not an argument, as an argument is not open to change whereas I have modified my views a little. Yes we have differing views but I did find your take on them interesting and enjoy friendly debates. Please don't take it as arguing for the sake of it, I took an opposite stance to better illustrate scenarios for those not having fully formed an opinion. I do enjoy a good debate though, but sometimes get pedantic.
For the record I do not advocate everyone going out and using fifi's or tethers. Aspire to greater merit but decide for yourselves what is good form. Does anyone else want to take over this debate?
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