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jollymon
Nov 18, 2008, 10:17 PM
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Again poor wording on my part, I do that in real life also at most points. anywho.....I would like to point out that looking at it head on the nut to the right appears to have more length then it should. It also appears to me the actual belaying position will be to the right more. This will place more stress on the left and center protection and the third piece will be slack. This presents a problem in any event of failure of the left and center pieces, which too me the nut looks likely and the cam looks suspect, as I have pointed out before. Said failure will result in a shock on the final piece of protection, which could have been avoided by shortening the arm.
Now this is how it appears to me from the photograph, we do not have a 3d walk around (nor is that needed) In my judgment that is how I see this anchor playing out in a failure situation. I understand the main is intended to have some flexibility in the event of a shift, I feel it is outside of that range from the picture.
Again I am anal with anchors and am willing to take the associated flack I receive for it.
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justroberto
Nov 19, 2008, 2:23 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: you description is already confusing and I bet, your so called c-lette is no more than a regular CF-lette but with a different flaveor. just post a photo and let me see it ? I just told you it's a standard equalette and you want me to show you a picture? If you don't know what it is, haven't done a search, and haven't worked with it yourself, you can't reasonably have any opinion on it... Or are you just fucking with me? The "Improved Sliding X" thread had almost 1000 posts in it and you of all people didn't see it? I am not. I want to see a picture of your anchor setup with all the pro been linked with master point. Thats what i want . you got any?
Alright holmes, here's the process. In the last year, I've probably used this 90-95% of the time it there's not a tree, slung boulder, or bolts for the anchor.
1. Roll up to anticipated belay station, place a piece, and clip the rope through.
2. Place your other one, two or three pieces, ideally with a locker on the best one.
3. Whip out your cord with the pre-tied limiter knots, and clove it into however many pieces you have.
4. Adjust hitches as required. It looks like this (I removed the lead rope from the first piece of protection for clarity):
Note the amount of excess cord dangling. This comes in handy when one or more of the pieces is far away, since you won't have to introduce more slings and biners into the equation.
5. Make a sliding X at the master point, slap a locker on it, clove hitch in, double check shit, and yell off belay.
6. More often than not, I'll take a bight of the lead rope coming off the master point and clove hitch into my best piece. Since you're a safety nazi, you can do this before you come off belay. Whatever.
7. Rig up your belay device of choice, get comfy, check shit out again, and signal to your partner(s) On Belay. I rigged this one for guide mode (my atc guide is MIA right now, but i've thrown a regular atc on there just to get the point across):
Belaying with a regular atc I'll typically either belay off the harness and redirect through the master point or belay off the master point and redirect through my best piece, depending on where I am in relation to the anchor and what makes the most sense for my second. Either way, you've got 3 lockers(4 in guide mode), 2 non-lockers, and 5 clove hitches. I'll take the extra hitches over having to fuss with tying and adjusting a figure 8 at the master point any day.
Before I took the pics, I put on my harness, slung the curtain rod as you see it, and timed myself. At a slightly quicker than average pace - average being dopey-slow and in no hurry whatsoever - it took me 70 seconds. I did have to adjust my clove hitches on my protection but not the limiter knots, for what it's worth.
My show and tell time is over. Now it's your turn...
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majid_sabet
Nov 19, 2008, 5:15 AM
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justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: you description is already confusing and I bet, your so called c-lette is no more than a regular CF-lette but with a different flaveor. just post a photo and let me see it ? I just told you it's a standard equalette and you want me to show you a picture? If you don't know what it is, haven't done a search, and haven't worked with it yourself, you can't reasonably have any opinion on it... Or are you just fucking with me? The "Improved Sliding X" thread had almost 1000 posts in it and you of all people didn't see it? I am not. I want to see a picture of your anchor setup with all the pro been linked with master point. Thats what i want . you got any? Alright holmes, here's the process. In the last year, I've probably used this 90-95% of the time it there's not a tree, slung boulder, or bolts for the anchor. 1. Roll up to anticipated belay station, place a piece, and clip the rope through. 2. Place your other one, two or three pieces, ideally with a locker on the best one. 3. Whip out your cord with the pre-tied limiter knots, and clove it into however many pieces you have. 4. Adjust hitches as required. It looks like this (I removed the lead rope from the first piece of protection for clarity): [image]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/3041724715_5646b7e4ac.jpg?v=0[/image] Note the amount of excess cord dangling. This comes in handy when one or more of the pieces is far away, since you won't have to introduce more slings and biners into the equation. 5. Make a sliding X at the master point, slap a locker on it, clove hitch in, double check shit, and yell off belay. 6. More often than not, I'll take a bight of the lead rope coming off the master point and clove hitch into my best piece. Since you're a safety nazi, you can do this before you come off belay. Whatever. [image]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/3042568536_f6854947a2.jpg?v=0[/image] 7. Rig up your belay device of choice, get comfy, check shit out again, and signal to your partner(s) On Belay. I rigged this one for guide mode (my atc guide is MIA right now, but i've thrown a regular atc on there just to get the point across): [image]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/3042568810_228b96ddba.jpg?v=0[/image] [image]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/3041725717_83c0d9bd3e.jpg?v=0[/image] Belaying with a regular atc I'll typically either belay off the harness and redirect through the master point or belay off the master point and redirect through my best piece, depending on where I am in relation to the anchor and what makes the most sense for my second. Either way, you've got 3 lockers(4 in guide mode), 2 non-lockers, and 5 clove hitches. I'll take the extra hitches over having to fuss with tying and adjusting a figure 8 at the master point any day. Before I took the pics, I put on my harness, slung the curtain rod as you see it, and timed myself. At a slightly quicker than average pace - average being dopey-slow and in no hurry whatsoever - it took me 70 seconds. I did have to adjust my clove hitches on my protection but not the limiter knots, for what it's worth. My show and tell time is over. Now it's your turn...
Lord of all mighty CFs to save you
Did you learn this from RC?
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justroberto
Nov 19, 2008, 6:25 AM
Post #79 of 95
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majid_sabet wrote: Lord of all mighty CFs to save you Did you learn this from RC?
Yer funny. I showed you mine, so it's time for you to pay up, Magi. Let's see it. Hopefully it will include those rap rings you spoke of.
I'll continue to not take you seriously until you offer something constructive. I hope most people won't either...
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majid_sabet
Nov 19, 2008, 6:51 AM
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justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Lord of all mighty CFs to save you Did you learn this from RC? Yer funny. I showed you mine, so it's time for you to pay up, Magi. Let's see it. Hopefully it will include those rap rings you spoke of. I'll continue to not take you seriously until you offer something constructive. I hope most people won't either...
well, believe it or not , people do take me very seriously in RC cause every time I ask them to do something, they go home and they do it, even if they have to use their own shower .Anyway, I will try to make something and post it without using my tire.
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knieveltech
Nov 19, 2008, 7:01 AM
Post #81 of 95
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majid_sabet wrote: justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Lord of all mighty CFs to save you Did you learn this from RC? Yer funny. I showed you mine, so it's time for you to pay up, Magi. Let's see it. Hopefully it will include those rap rings you spoke of. I'll continue to not take you seriously until you offer something constructive. I hope most people won't either... well, believe it or not , people do take me very seriously in RC cause every time I ask them to do something, they go home and they do it, even if they have to use their own shower .Anyway, I will try to make something and post it without using my tire.
Fuck that. You've been posting anchor diagrams on this site featuring spare tires for at least as long as I've been on here. So if you're going to go actually rig a real honest to god anchor and snap a picture of it we're all pretty much going to be sorely disappointed if you don't include a spare tire.
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justroberto
Nov 19, 2008, 7:47 AM
Post #82 of 95
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majid_sabet wrote: justroberto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Lord of all mighty CFs to save you Did you learn this from RC? Yer funny. I showed you mine, so it's time for you to pay up, Magi. Let's see it. Hopefully it will include those rap rings you spoke of. I'll continue to not take you seriously until you offer something constructive. I hope most people won't either... well, believe it or not , people do take me very seriously in RC cause every time I ask them to do something, they go home and they do it, even if they have to use their own shower .
In my case, I wasn't taking you seriously. I was trying to lure you out of your safe, self-righteous lair. Like tradman in the religious discussions, it's impossible to pin you down on what you are for, what you believe in...what you trust. All we ever get from you is what you are against. Frequently you are the critic, but I have yet to see you offer an alternative solution to the problem at hand. Please, for the love of God, show us a setup that is more simple than the solution above, while being equally effective.
In reply to: Anyway, I will try to make something and post it without using my tire.
I'll believe it when I see it.
(This post was edited by justroberto on Nov 19, 2008, 7:49 AM)
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norushnomore
Nov 19, 2008, 10:04 AM
Post #83 of 95
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epoch, so what happened to my comment where I called your anchor "climbing p0rn"? Did you delete it?
By the way, can you un-stick this thread?
There was not a single request made to make it sticky. You are preaching a self proclaimed importance here
And yes I am with dingus here, whole crapolette thing was invented to sell that lame anchors book.
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epoch
Moderator
Nov 19, 2008, 12:28 PM
Post #84 of 95
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norushnomore wrote: epoch, so what happened to my comment where I called your anchor "climbing p0rn"? Did you delete it? By the way, can you un-stick this thread? There was not a single request made to make it sticky. You are preaching a self proclaimed importance here And yes I am with dingus here, whole crapolette thing was invented to sell that lame anchors book.
(2) This thread is not stickied.
(3) There is allot of useful information on this site. I am trying to start what will, hopefully, be a recurring theme where everyone is invited to build and show off their anchors. (3.a.) As of now, with three threads devoted to this so far, I would hold the majority of OPs. And FWIW, I have three more anchors for y'all to beat on.
(4) Since you're so opinionated, why don't you put up a working example of one of your anchors. Put yourself out there for critique, criticism, and analysis. Are you afraid that your work won't be acceptable to the majority? All you have to do is defend your reasoning for making it, and describe what is going on in there. (4.a.) We're all adults - or at least play one somewhere - and the worst thing that could happen to you is that your ego gets squashed and maybe you gain a bit of humility.
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moose_droppings
Nov 19, 2008, 1:21 PM
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Outside of the other comments about lockers unlocked, biners facing wrong way, excess materials, etc., seems to look like you'd have to have set your pieces then down climbed to clip into your PP. Arms look awfully long, which might be OK depending on what the anchor is for. I won't comment on the stability of each piece with out actually being there.
The anchor in general shows one of the problems I have with the equallette.
If your piece on the right side were to blow and the direction of force to the PP is changed, all the force applied to the anchor would be put on to one strand of 7mm cord (or what ever size your using).
With only a single strand going to each piece (4 piece equalette) you've given up the strength of a looped cord to each piece of pro. In the 3 legged you've got 2 arms with just a single strand. Deadly, probably not, but sketchy enough to use it as one of my last options.
As you stated earlier, their are many other ways to rig a safe redundant, somewhat equalized anchor. The problem is that if someone isn't very familiar with them, they won't use them. Everyone needs to learn a few different ways well and become proficient with them under different settings.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 19, 2008, 1:43 PM)
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norushnomore
Nov 20, 2008, 10:09 AM
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Hey, you wanted comments so I posted them.
You did not like them so you proceeded with deleting them.
This does not reflect well on your integrity or credibility.
Same for calling other people comments "noise"
And yes, you did make your anchor thread sticky, ok not this exact one.
To some this is a lame attempt to sell more Anchors book. Go get an ad space, this thread is noise if you ask me
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epoch
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Nov 20, 2008, 1:02 PM
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norushnomore wrote: To some this is a lame attempt to sell more Anchors book. Go get an ad space, this thread is noise if you ask me epoch wrote: (4) Since you're so opinionated, why don't you put up a working example of one of your anchors. Put yourself out there for critique, criticism, and analysis. Are you afraid that your work won't be acceptable to the majority? All you have to do is defend your reasoning for making it, and describe what is going on in there. (4.a.) We're all adults - or at least play one somewhere - and the worst thing that could happen to you is that your ego gets squashed and maybe you gain a bit of humility. |
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shockabuku
Nov 20, 2008, 1:20 PM
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jollymon wrote: Again poor wording on my part, I do that in real life also at most points. anywho.....I would like to point out that looking at it head on the nut to the right appears to have more length then it should. It also appears to me the actual belaying position will be to the right more.
What do you mean by the "belaying position." Does that mean where the power point hangs or where the belayer stands. Regardless, I don't know how you could tell from this picture where either would be when the thing is used. Added to that is the fact that the equalette allows the power point to move (within some range) thereby keeping all arms tensioned, unlike the cordelette which only keeps equalization when the power point is in one particular spot in space.
In reply to: This will place more stress on the left and center protection and the third piece will be slack. This presents a problem in any event of failure of the left and center pieces, which too me the nut looks likely and the cam looks suspect, as I have pointed out before. Said failure will result in a shock on the final piece of protection, which could have been avoided by shortening the arm.
The idea of shockload is pretty contentious nowadays but at any rate, the anchor would not produce a significant shockload if the left and center pieces blew. Why? Because the right arm will remain tensioned (as long as the belayer doesn't shift the power point outside of its operating range) and there would be just a minor pendulum to the side along with a small drop created by the power point biner moving to the end of the power point range (hitting the limiting knot).
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moose_droppings
Nov 20, 2008, 11:49 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Added to that is the fact that the equalette allows the power point to move (within some range) thereby keeping all arms tensioned, unlike the cordelette which only keeps equalization when the power point is in one particular spot in space.
Only one leg on each side will remain tensioned as you move your PP from side to side with the equallette.
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shockabuku
Nov 21, 2008, 3:07 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: shockabuku wrote: Added to that is the fact that the equalette allows the power point to move (within some range) thereby keeping all arms tensioned, unlike the cordelette which only keeps equalization when the power point is in one particular spot in space. Only one leg on each side will remain tensioned as you move your PP from side to side with the equallette.
Yeah ok, my mistake.
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bennydh
Nov 21, 2008, 4:09 AM
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This thread theme could be even more useful if it wasn't simply an analysis, but a combination of analysis with more efficiency or purpose in mind.
Example. Just looking at your anchor pics with the equalette, I think the cam looks like it could move, and the hex in pic two looks incredibly directionally dependent.
You said all pieces are solid in their own right, so my critique would be preference at that point.
Why not use the rope to make the anchor if you are gonna swing leads with the second anyway? Overhand on the center piece, cloves on the two outside pieces and the two droops generated get tied into a master point? You stay tied in, and you don't have to unrack a cordollete mid offwidth, you can clove yourself to the first piece you place and weight it so that you don't work til the thing is entirely built, the rope is stronger than your cordolette, the process is faster and requires less gear.
What kind of analysis were you expecting? And how is the Equalette going to evolve?
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justroberto
Nov 21, 2008, 5:03 AM
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There's a big IF with the sheisty pieces shown. I like your idea here, but i'd want either the lowest piece or the center piece to be the first one I tie into (I'd probably just go with a clove instead of the overhand on a bight). In Epoch's OP case, both the lowest piece - the left hex - and the center piece - the cam - appear to be far worse pieces than the hex up to the right. Of course, it's notoriously hard to judge from pictures, but i'd roll with more equalization as my first priority if it turned out to be the case.
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bennydh
Nov 21, 2008, 5:27 AM
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This is exactly what I'm not grasping about the theme of this thread. I wouldn't want that to be my anchor. But OP says pieces are solid. Is anyone who responds supposed to accept that these are solid pieces and criticize the cordage/equalette exclusively. I'm missing it.
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norushnomore
Nov 21, 2008, 11:11 AM
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Epoch, you won, my ego is bruised and my anchors suck... whatever, just, please, don't delete my comments regardless of how you feel about them
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dingus
Nov 21, 2008, 2:15 PM
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Oooooo oooooo oooooo!
DELETE ME!
DELETE ME!!!!!!1111111
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
DMT
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