What did it say?

It was the "Aid Rant" guy saying what the Aid Rant guy says.

Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.

I interpreted and make note of, Chris Kalous having an issue with the current system for categorizing aid climbsnot the act of aiding itself.

The dude retrobolted someone else's route, enroute to dissing A5. No I don't think this will affect 99.99% of us in the least. But there is a .01% that really takes that shit seriously.

DMT

Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

What did it say?

He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.

F*** Rockclimbing. It's like a bunch of high school kids stuck in their cliches and pissing and moaning about how they are better than the next. We should all quit and take up curling I bet there are less things to hate people for.

So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)

So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)

I agree with this. Yes a climb may have to be aided at first but if it can be free climbed then make it free able. ( if that made any sense at all ).


Theres a video clip of tommy caldwell and beth rodden in the grand canyon wanting to free an aid climb but first chris mcnamara aided up there and made sure that all the pro was there and it was possible, and I think that is where aid climbing is great to have. With aid climbing your able to explore further, and then later free climb it (if possible, and aiding up it will help determine if it is possible or not).


just my 2 cents.

Bolt-hole cams exist...lets pull all the bolts and send sport routes with trad gear.

A via ferrata on the Eiger would be cool as hell. Just don't have it interfere with any established routes.

A via ferrata on the Eiger would be cool as hell. Just don't have it interfere with any established routes.

As I understand it; a rivet will not hold a fall...so if he placed bolts where there were rivets; then he has ruined this A5, right? I think that's wrong. That's like chipping holds to me.

Valarc, altering the rock is always frowned upon. Just because it's aid doesn't make it OK. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you can drill bat hooks and put in bolt ladders wherever you want.

I got that idea from reading the ramblings of self-professed old school climbers. I see people ranting and raving constantly about the ethics violations of the upstart new climbers, but rarely see anyone but noobs like me questioning drilling hook holes or bolt ladders.

If it's really a question of simply surviving, and not stroking one's ego, wouldn't it make more sense to drill a rap anchor and bail off the climb, rather than a bolt ladder?

I got that idea from reading the ramblings of self-professed old school climbers. I see people ranting and raving constantly about the ethics violations of the upstart new climbers, but rarely see anyone but noobs like me questioning drilling hook holes or bolt ladders.

If it's really a question of simply surviving, and not stroking one's ego, wouldn't it make more sense to drill a rap anchor and bail off the climb, rather than a bolt ladder?

Maybe noobs like you should just head on up there and find out what the deal really is all about?
...
All I'm saying is this - be cautious about applying non-wall climbing judgements and thresholds until you've at least tried a wall yourself.

I just find it frustrating that there are different standards depending on how scared you are.

If it's OK to fuck up the rock, it should be just as OK for a sport weenie as it is for a big wall'er.

I understand the circumstances are different, and the level of commitment is different, but the rock doesn't care if you're in the "death zone" or not.

It would be one thing if the big wall community didn't also often seem to be the loudest community when it comes to telling everyone else what is and isn't proper ethics.

I just don't like the attitude of "do as I say, not as as I do,

unless you're so scared you're about to shit yourself".

Or alternatively, the more ego-oriented "I'm a bigger man than you, because I climb scarier shit, and therefore its OK for me to destroy the rock if I feel its necessary, as long as I do it in a way that might kill someone."

I have no problem with drilling hook holes, and hammering pins doesn't really bother me. But neither does rap bolting, hangdogging, or pinkpointing.

I guess what I'm saying is, if certain segments of the community wouldn't be so damn judgmental

of the way others do things, I wouldn't be nearly as bothered by the whole discussion.

You will quickly note - there is no solidarity and this so-called community is rather a very loose association of individualists, none of whom appreciate being told what to do.

But so many of them seem to love telling everyone else what to do. That's the part that grinds my gears.

It's a gross exaggeration to say "kalous retro-bolted an A5"

What about tommy caldwell, alex huber, and many others who have retro-bolted aid climbs to protect free-climbing variations? Are they pussies too? I'd love to see anyone who thinks so say that to Alex's face.

The reason the "big wall community" has such a strong presence online is because they're all old out-of-shape and out-of-touch climbers who don't climb anymore and just sit at home and spray their out-dated ethics and try to convince the new climbers who come online of their archaic system that still places them and what they do above anything else happening today.

It's such a farce. Warren Harding would have a field day with this ...

But you stoked this thread by making Fox News-style attacks on a person who put together a pretty damn logical and compelling argument,

and then when you got called out for being one of the fat losers who thinks aid climbing is cool because you're too weak to do anything significant, you reverted into a "hey, man, everything's relative, bro!" argument.

Have you climbed A5? Have you climbed 5.13? Have you free climbed El Cap? Kalous has ... maybe you should listen to what he has to say instead of speaking from an out-dated, now totally irrelevant position.

I know it's frustrating to watch your connection to a sport you once knew fade

The author retrobolted an A5 route

this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back.

Nah. It seemed to me that the guy had self esteem issues. He sprayed about how radical he is and how lame aid is in a transparent attempt to elevate his own (self) image.

The point he misses is that noone - at least, noone that I know - aid climbs for an ego boost. We do it because it's fun. Ratings are there to give others an idea of how difficult/dangerous a climb is so that they know what they're getting into, not so that they can post to 8a.nu and calculate their world ranking.

"this dude" Gave his honest opinion...which was gleaned from experience at the top end of both side's.
A troll? Not, not really.

Did it piss a lot of folks off? yes.

What you did is lie, to try and discredit him.
A troll?
Maybe.
A lie by DMT?
Yes.

Aid climbers NOT sparying?
I got a good laugh out of that one.

josh

If you think I give a tinkers damn about this whole wag fest you are sadly sadly mistaken.

Some of ou talk about 'aid climbers' like there is some legion of lock stepping automatons all a-doin and all a-saying the same thing.

And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

You're arguing semantics. By the strictest definition of the community's made-up word, adding bolts in any way, including at an anchor, is a retrobolt. I think you're being harsh to call DMT a liar, but I also think he's being intentionally anal with the definition to make the original rant look weaker than it might otherwise look.

I would love to see aid difficulty get pushed, perhaps even cutting edge routes were multiple falls are taken in order to figure out the move.

aid climbers ...don't seem to suffer this need for consistency and a vanilla world where all rules are the same and everyone plays the same fucking game

Pretty funny, citing wings of steel. I'm not touching that steaming pile with a 20' pole.

But suffice it to say all the participants, all of them, are well advanced middle aged men, balding and what have you.

Kohl is getting up there too, but that isn't really the point is it?

This desperate need for conformity and consistency has its roots in one thing - spray and ego; determining pack position.

The entire argument of the original author, in the video certainly, was based upon this need, and therefore rendered lame as cat piss.

The whole thing is cat piss.

DMT

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed.

Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.

Point of order - its perfectly acceptable, imo and practice on the cliffs in Yosemite seems to reinforce this opinion, that CLEAN AID on freed routes is perfectly A-OK, unless you're hogging a highly prized free route on a busy day (different topic).

Its NAILING routes that have gone free, that except for a few anti-social folk, is not acceptable.

The ethics involved are more about rock and route preservation (and degrading due to iornmongery) and less to do with some spirtual bullshit that places free higher in the pecking order than aid.

Cheers
DMT

when I was in NAM we did FA's in the purest of style, we started naked from the south china sea, and hiked to Cambodia gathering only the most organic natural tools for drilling. A jaw bone from the endangered albino mudskipper for the drill, water smoothed rocks for the hammer, and hooves from water buffalo to make glue to hold the bolts in. This was the Cambodian climbing ethic that we adhered to and still do. Now the new generation is using russian adjustable friction hitches for double dyno's, and they twitter on the A-4+R pitches, which only dumb down the route. some have even used cam shackles and snap links on the 4th pitch. Next thing you know they will be melting lead heads into the 5.8 crack with a propane Jewelers torch.
You new guys need to show some respect and cowboy up!