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Quasi
Jan 1, 2009, 11:31 PM
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I know there are difference between how military and civilians are taught sports, such as SCUBA, the military is much more intensive and they play by different rules, decompression, air mixtures and their overall performance underwater differs.
I was wondering, do military courses for rock climbing differ from the civilian courses? Or are they exactly the same holds, equipment and moves civilians use?
(I ask because I am looking at the military and wonder if learning the techniques as a civilian will differ if I get into such a course in the military.)
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epoch
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Jan 1, 2009, 11:57 PM
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The fundamentals that one would learn in one of the various military mountaineering schools are basically the same as you would learn in the real world.
For recreational rock climbers, it is just that: Recreation. We follow guidelines and basic rules to keep us safe. Training for and pushing the grades are something that we all aspire to do.
Military mountaineering is a professional objective where movement of the climbers is to establish routes up a precipice for a unit to move. SOF units may usre more mountaineering and rock climbing than regular units, but it depends on what you do.
Civilian experience can be had at your own pace, whereas military schools are geared towards pass/fail at their pace.
I know plenty of people who started climbing and mountaineering in the military and it's difficult to say whether or not prior experience would help or hinder.
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caliclimbergrl
Jan 1, 2009, 11:58 PM
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I probably shouldn't reply to this since I know absolutely nothing about the military. But to take a wild shot in the dark, I would guess they might put more emphasis on getting to the top and maybe on speed than on form. So they may employ less ethics when it comes to things like pulling on gear, etc. But as far as safety and how to use gear, it would probably be a good place to learn. Hopefully someone who knows more about military training will be able to give you a more accurate response.
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dr_feelgood
Jan 1, 2009, 11:59 PM
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Quasi wrote: I know there are difference between how military and civilians are taught sports, such as SCUBA, the military is much more intensive and they play by different rules, decompression, air mixtures and their overall performance underwater differs. I was wondering, do military courses for rock climbing differ from the civilian courses? Or are they exactly the same holds, equipment and moves civilians use? (I ask because I am looking at the military and wonder if learning the techniques as a civilian will differ if I get into such a course in the military.)
I'll bite.
If you join the military, the chance that you will get to do any actual climbing in the course of your career related to your job description is slim to none. I'm in a "mountain" unit in the national guard right now, and we don't have any mountaineering equipment whatsoever. If you plan on climbing with any sort of regularity, don't join. Certainly do not join to climb as a job.
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clc
Jan 2, 2009, 1:00 AM
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I know a few guys in the Canadian military (yes we have a little one). If you are part of SAR tech you get to climb, and even go on paid ice climbing trips in the rockies and ski trips.
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coastal_climber
Jan 2, 2009, 1:16 AM
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clc wrote: I know a few guys in the Canadian military (yes we have a little one). If you are part of SAR tech you get to climb, and even go on paid ice climbing trips in the rockies and ski trips.
I heard CFB Comox ordered everyone double plastics from Valhalla, lucky guys.
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USnavy
Jan 2, 2009, 1:28 AM
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I am in the Navy and the company I work for does military training. The only rating that we teach is the Navy SEAL rating. They only get a small amount of training related to climbing from us. There is virtually no chance that you will have to do any climbing as part of your career in the Navy. I can’t comment on other branches but I would guess it’s likely you won’t climb in other branches as well.
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vinnie83
Jan 2, 2009, 2:24 AM
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I'm in the air force and work in pararescue. When we get to go out "climbing" its always to practice high angle rescue which usually involves hiking or scrambling to the top of a cliff and then setting up a system to do a pick off or on an occasional(maybe every other year) snow and ice trip which involves a little bit of backcountry skiing, avalanche training, crevasse rescue, and some ice climbing. At my unit there is myself and one other guy who have a significant amount climbing experience outside of high angle rescue and we learned most of what we know outside of work. I think the only places in the military where you would be able to actually climb for work on an occasional basis would be at either the army or marine mountain warfare schools(I haven't been to either of these, just talked to people who have) or the PJ team up in alaska.
Just remember, no matter how cool or fun you think a certain activity is the military will find some way to take the fun out of it. However, getting to work outside still beats sitting behind a desk all day.
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davidwebb1969
Jan 2, 2009, 3:02 AM
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I am ex Australian Army, I spent some time in the Army and it was not for quite a while that I actually got to do a military climbing related course. In the Australian Army the biggest differences are the redundancy in the systems you use and the methods that you are taught. I climbed on weekends when I was in the Army and it helped me to an extent BUT there was a lot of differences in the process's.
At the end of the day the systems were the same but instead of using a single locking biner as an example you used two, where you could you use a clipgate you could not use one you had to use a locker.
In the Australian Army the best thing was they only used the best equipment, the gear you dreamed of they had that was too expensive for you to buy.
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kane_schutzman
Jan 2, 2009, 4:57 AM
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Yo man, would you mind pm'ing me on the program your wanting go into.
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rockie
Jan 2, 2009, 2:11 PM
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Quasi wrote: I know there are difference between how military and civilians are taught sports, such as SCUBA, the military is much more intensive and they play by different rules, decompression, air mixtures and their overall performance underwater differs. I was wondering, do military courses for rock climbing differ from the civilian courses? Or are they exactly the same holds, equipment and moves civilians use? (I ask because I am looking at the military and wonder if learning the techniques as a civilian will differ if I get into such a course in the military.)
Scuba training in the British Forces was no different to civilian training if it is sport diving you were interested in. I trained while in the forces myself. They'd only let you train with BSAC, as it's world safety renowned.
From a career focus that would be the Navy and be more specialized for sure.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3102
Edit to add: And rock climbing training with our forces is no different, it's focus comes from the BMC. One of our forces groups is RAFMA:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafmountaineering/
(This post was edited by rockie on Jan 2, 2009, 2:14 PM)
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crw5074
Jan 2, 2009, 2:37 PM
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I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories.
(This post was edited by crw5074 on Jan 2, 2009, 2:38 PM)
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dingus
Jan 2, 2009, 2:45 PM
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crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories.
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/...ynext=1&index=71
I've climbed on those rocks of Leavitt Meadows too - with civilian gear. The rock is STILL snot slick metamorphic (with good granite right up the road too) and those grunts learn that shit in combat boots.
One of my occasional Sonora Pass climbing mates is an ex-Recon and took his mountain warfare training there too. He's one tough hombre, quietly opening new big wall routes in the back country, mid-winter.... SOLO.
They make Marines TOUGH.
DMT
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crankmas
Jan 2, 2009, 3:03 PM
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I was in the Navy for two weeks and we didn't climb anything but the walls of our souls- get a van and take a long climbing vacation and decide if you can live without climbing before you commit to the military (see previous posts) no one can decide but you. the rewards of a military stint may offset a few years being unable to climb consistently but remember you do get time off and bayonet training.
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Maddhatter
Jan 2, 2009, 7:25 PM
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crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories.
They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less.
(This post was edited by Maddhatter on Jan 2, 2009, 7:26 PM)
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binrat
Jan 3, 2009, 1:53 AM
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I'm in the Cdn Forces and after almost 20 years I started to climb as part of my job. Now I climb about 10-15 times a year for work. Nothing fancy mostly Ontario Slime stone choss.
binrat
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majid_sabet
Jan 3, 2009, 5:11 AM
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Only the best of the best will survive and exit out of Tora Bora
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jt512
Jan 3, 2009, 6:31 AM
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Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less.
Do they teach them how to spell "their"?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 3, 2009, 6:32 AM)
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spikeddem
Jan 3, 2009, 9:34 AM
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jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay
1 down, the sum internet users minus one to go. Fight the good fight Jay.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 3, 2009, 9:35 AM)
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rockie
Jan 3, 2009, 10:04 AM
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binrat wrote: I'm in the Cdn Forces and after almost 20 years I started to climb as part of my job. Now I climb about 10-15 times a year for work. Nothing fancy mostly Ontario Slime stone choss. binrat
Sounds like a Royal Engineer working from the lodge I stayed at, not climbing related but sports related all the same. I knew him while in Bavaria on a tri services Silver Ski instructor course I completed there. In that role though he was a paragliding instructor for a good 3 yrs at least, nice job. Sport was plentiful, and was always encouraged in our forces, a huge list of sports opportunities you could apply for and were facilitated to do, also classed as duty so mostly it was paid for, when we did pay it was not much.
Humour is certainly rife in our forces too, it's all part of it, especially the RAF, just not during initial training when you initially join up.
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dingus
Jan 3, 2009, 11:41 AM
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jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay
No. That assumes the drill sargents know better. They don't.
Howevcer, spelling flames are even more off topic in the Marines then they are here!
Its not smart to spell flame someone standing there with a bad attitude and a loaded M16.
No sir, not smart atall.
"He told me I spelt thier wrond Sir. So I shot him."
"Oh, OK private, I understand. Now back to your duty station, but clean up this mess first!"
No you don't flame active duty marines for spelling.
DMT
DMT
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Maddhatter
Jan 3, 2009, 5:08 PM
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jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay
Sorry Sensay, I will thy harder. 
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jmvc
Jan 3, 2009, 5:44 PM
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Maddhatter wrote: jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay Sorry Sensay, I will thy harder.
That has got to be a joke.. or two.
Edit: or three.
(This post was edited by jmvc on Jan 3, 2009, 5:45 PM)
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kane_schutzman
Jan 3, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Maddhatter wrote: jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay Sorry Sensay, I will thy harder.
No no, you tell that guy to go fuck himself
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Maddhatter
Jan 3, 2009, 6:12 PM
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kane_schutzman wrote: Maddhatter wrote: jt512 wrote: Maddhatter wrote: crw5074 wrote: I served in the U.S. Marines as an infantryman, and was first exposed to rock climbing in a mountain warfare course in the Sierra Nevada mountains. The equipment used was not as nice as most recreational climbers use, as we climbed in our desert boots, used the munter for belaying, and wore Swiss seats fastened from webbing. We carried our rifles and packs on our backs, making most of the climbing, which was likely 5.2, harder. We also climbed at night, with no lights, which remains one of my fondest climbing memories. They bring groups of Marines from 29 palms up to Indian cove all the time to teach them how to lead climb. 5.7 and 5.8 trad in there boots no less. Do they teach them how to spell "their"? Jay Sorry Sensay, I will thy harder. No no, you tell that guy to go fuck himself
Fear not I have. He's still right this whole "your" and "there" thing is pretty dam simple and I should have it down by now.
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apoorva
Jan 3, 2009, 7:21 PM
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Getting back to the topic...
While I learned regular rock climbing as a recreation, at school (univ of MD); I learned mountaineering at an Indian military mountaineering school in the Himalayas. I'm sure it's not the same thing as the US military, but those guys (the Indian army) has been fighting at the world's highest battlefield (the Siachen glacier, from 16-21,000 feet) for a long time, and holds joint exercises to train US units once in a while...
Besides, it was the cheapest way to learn mountaineering, especially in those mountains.
What I learned -
The army tends to use cheaper, mass-bought gear and make you learn how to get by with as little as possible. I initially learned making harnesses out of slings, munter hitches, and all kinds of knots I never subsequently used.
They also taught me z-pulleys for crevasse rescues using just biners, alpine clutches, weird stuff like rapp'ng off an ice axe / ice screw and then removing both... from below.
We ate absolute crap food, got our asses kicked by the instructors (all military), and I spent some five weeks above 12,000 feet.
There was a lot of discipline involved, and some tough climbing with definitely less fancy gear, but essentially decent (they gave us Koflach Expe boots, some Indian brand packs, Korean sleeping bags and tents, Simond biners and other hardware, BD, Simond and other screws, Bolle goggles, etc...)
Actually I think it's all worth an article... hmm.
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mhix13
Jan 6, 2009, 2:48 AM
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gl with the military thing. I'm in and have wanted to try and go to the school at the link... but my job doesn't qualify me for it 
scroll down to about 2/3s down the page and check out the training manuals. Military schools always teach straight out of a manual first so that should give you an idea.
https://www.infantry.army.mil/amws/
*edit* went to the FMs and you have to have a military log in and pass word. Check and see if you can't google the FMs and find a bootleg copy or an older version somewhere on the internet that civies can download.
(This post was edited by mhix13 on Jan 6, 2009, 2:51 AM)
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shockabuku
Jan 7, 2009, 2:29 AM
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I've been in and around the US Army for most of my life.
The climbers I meet are few and far between.
The lifestyles just aren't very well mutually supporting.
There is very little utility to the military at large in having many of it's members trained as mountaineers, and even less as rock climbers.
Unless you go into the special ops arena you'll likely see very little of it. Most of what you would see is not to teach you how to climb well(movement), but more how not to get yourself killed if you fall while climbing(gear usage).
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macblaze
Jan 7, 2009, 3:36 AM
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mhix13 wrote: gl with the military thing. I'm in and have wanted to try and go to the school at the link... but my job doesn't qualify me for it scroll down to about 2/3s down the page and check out the training manuals. Military schools always teach straight out of a manual first so that should give you an idea. https://www.infantry.army.mil/amws/ *edit* went to the FMs and you have to have a military log in and pass word. Check and see if you can't google the FMs and find a bootleg copy or an older version somewhere on the internet that civies can download.
AMWS Student Manual wrote: Class 5 Classifications Description 5.0-5.4 Little difficulty. This is the simplest form of free climbing. Hands are necessary to support balance. This is sometimes referred to as advanced rock scrambling. 5.5 Moderate difficulty. Three points of contact are necessary. 5.6 Medium difficulty. 5.7 Great difficulty. Considerable climbing experience is necessary. Longer stretches of climbing requiring several points of intermediate protection. 5.8 Very great difficulty. Increasing amount of intermediate protection is the rule. High physical conditioning, climbing technique and experience required. 5.9 Extremely great difficulty. Requires well above average ability and excellent condition. 5.10 Extraordinary difficulty. Climb only with improved equipment and intense training. 5.11-5.14 Greater increases of difficulty, requiring more climbing ability, experience and energy expenditure.
Awesome! I am a climber who can climb things of extraordinary difficulty! And here I was feeling pretty low on the ol' yosemite pole!
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meahtots
Jan 7, 2009, 6:06 AM
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nice find!
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IclimbNAKED
Jan 7, 2009, 7:21 AM
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macblaze wrote: AMWS Student Manual wrote: Class 5 Classifications Description 5.0-5.4 Little difficulty. This is the simplest form of free climbing. Hands are necessary to support balance. This is sometimes referred to as advanced rock scrambling. 5.5 Moderate difficulty. Three points of contact are necessary. 5.6 Medium difficulty. 5.7 Great difficulty. Considerable climbing experience is necessary. Longer stretches of climbing requiring several points of intermediate protection. 5.8 Very great difficulty. Increasing amount of intermediate protection is the rule. High physical conditioning, climbing technique and experience required. 5.9 Extremely great difficulty. Requires well above average ability and excellent condition. 5.10 Extraordinary difficulty. Climb only with improved equipment and intense training. 5.11-5.14 Greater increases of difficulty, requiring more climbing ability, experience and energy expenditure. Awesome! I am a climber who can climb things of extraordinary difficulty! And here I was feeling pretty low on the ol' yosemite pole!
But d00dz, where is the new standard of hardmen: 5.15!? No amount of superlatives may express its associated difficulty, and we therefore must concluded that it was omitted for the sake of keeping our fragile nerves undamaged.
P.S. This also makes me feel like a champ... I have climbed at levels increased above extraordinary difficulty! WOOOO!
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richardvg03
Jan 9, 2009, 6:48 AM
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Quasi wrote: (I ask because I am looking at the military and wonder if learning the techniques as a civilian will differ if I get into such a course in the military.)
What branch?
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Renty
Jan 9, 2009, 7:59 AM
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AMWS Student Manual wrote: Class 5 Classifications Description 5.0-5.4 Little difficulty. This is the simplest form of free climbing. Hands are necessary to support balance. This is sometimes referred to as advanced rock scrambling. 5.5 Moderate difficulty. Three points of contact are necessary. 5.6 Medium difficulty. 5.7 Great difficulty. Considerable climbing experience is necessary. Longer stretches of climbing requiring several points of intermediate protection. 5.8 Very great difficulty. Increasing amount of intermediate protection is the rule. High physical conditioning, climbing technique and experience required. 5.9 Extremely great difficulty. Requires well above average ability and excellent condition. 5.10 Extraordinary difficulty. Climb only with improved equipment and intense training. 5.11-5.14 Greater increases of difficulty, requiring more climbing ability, experience and energy expenditure.
Keep in mind these soldiers are climbing in combat boots, without chalk, etc. So the grading is more reminiscent of the original YDS - with 5.10 likely being the most difficult level of climbing they're going to be able to achieve.
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asiaclimber
Jan 9, 2009, 9:33 AM
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join the airforce. you will not climb with your job but if you get a desk job you will have regular 9-5 hours and weekends off. you will make descent money and travel around the world on the government dollar. I have been all over the US, Korea and Japan and will be heading to china on vacation soon and Thailand next winter. Being in the AF gives you the oportunity to climb all over the world with minimum effect on who you are as a person and optimal time for climbing.
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kriso9tails
Jan 10, 2009, 1:33 AM
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Renty wrote: AMWS Student Manual wrote: Class 5 Classifications Description 5.0-5.4 Little difficulty. This is the simplest form of free climbing. Hands are necessary to support balance. This is sometimes referred to as advanced rock scrambling. 5.5 Moderate difficulty. Three points of contact are necessary. 5.6 Medium difficulty. 5.7 Great difficulty. Considerable climbing experience is necessary. Longer stretches of climbing requiring several points of intermediate protection. 5.8 Very great difficulty. Increasing amount of intermediate protection is the rule. High physical conditioning, climbing technique and experience required. 5.9 Extremely great difficulty. Requires well above average ability and excellent condition. 5.10 Extraordinary difficulty. Climb only with improved equipment and intense training. 5.11-5.14 Greater increases of difficulty, requiring more climbing ability, experience and energy expenditure. Keep in mind these soldiers are climbing in combat boots, without chalk, etc. So the grading is more reminiscent of the original YDS - with 5.10 likely being the most difficult level of climbing they're going to be able to achieve.
Well, also what is recreational climbing to the climbing community would easily amount to a great deal of experience relative to what the military requires. If I climb twice a week, forty weeks out of the year (outside and in the gym) for three years, that isn't considered super hardcore to climbers. Still, even averaging only two hours of climbing a session, that would amount to almost five hundred hours of climbing.
Again, not necessarily all that much relative to the climbing community, but quite a bit relative to what the average soldier receiving training would have.
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richardvg03
Jan 10, 2009, 4:43 PM
Post #36 of 36
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Registered: Apr 13, 2007
Posts: 740
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kriso9tails wrote: Well, also what is recreational climbing to the climbing community would easily amount to a great deal of experience relative to what the military requires.
The military hardly every climbs. We have a course that I visited but we would hardly use it in combat. If we found a cliff we'd go around and 99% of the time we already know that cliff is there so we've probably already planned to go around it.
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