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passthepitonspete
Mar 9, 2002, 12:06 PM
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Many thanks to Richard Heinrich, aka Spike, who went out and purchased a Yates Wall Rigger to experiment with it while building a 2:1.
If you have forgotten, you can click here to see where a Big Wall Theorist proposed building a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet using a Petzl Paw.
If the Big Wall Theorist who had proposed this admittedly pretty good looking idea had actually TRIED hauling with it, like Richard did, he would have realized that building a 2:1 this way does NOT work!
You can click here to read Richard's explanation as to why the Yates Wall Rigger does NOT work in a 2:1 hauling system. It's a really cool vector diagram which I think you'll like.
The good news is, the way I first explained above, and more importantly the way that I - Dr. Piton - have hauled enormous quantities of stuff up the side of El Cap, is also the better way, [thank] at least until such time as someone figures out something else.
In the meantime, I am sticking with what I know works.
This is not big wall theory - this is big wall practice.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I am dreaming of daffodils.
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punk
Jun 15, 2002, 4:58 PM
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Hey Doc,
What about if you turn the rigger upside down and u clip it through the big eye and clipping the holes through to the anchor while the other assembly remain the same you will have no or minimal shifting
I will kick it up a notch and will do a 4:1 on the left side with two Petzl Gemini or alike for really ease of hauling I tried it and u do have a little more rope on the down pull but the hauling is very easy
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-06-15 10:15 ]
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socalclimber
Jun 21, 2002, 12:51 PM
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Well, I gave up on the rigging plate for the hauler, it doesn't work, and it's just more clutter. I used the thing (the hauler, not the plate) for 2 pitches on The Prow (sigh) and can tell you the thing works like a champ. There is even a nice way to tie the whole mess up and make it nice and compact while your leading a pitch.
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passthepitonspete
Jun 26, 2002, 11:42 PM
Post #29 of 79
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Thanks to someone else for disproving the alleged benefit of the Paw.
On paper, it looks great, eh? In practice, however, it doesn't. Or so I've been told.
When the 2:1 works, it positively sings. I had the thing singing last week, and took photos of the setup.
You'll see them shortly. Stand by.
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philbox
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Jun 27, 2002, 11:57 PM
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Hi guys, Umm, the link to Jason Leibgotts mojo site which has the pics of the 2 to 1 wall hauler is broken so I put an original pic up on pbase here
http://www.pbase.com/image/2759186
Feel free to continue critiquing the system. I know that I have benefitted from playing around with Pete and Chongos system. I love playing around with this stuff.
...Phil...
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socalclimber
Jun 28, 2002, 2:12 PM
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First, lose the paw, it causes problems because it will rock side to side. Second, go drop the $4 (U.S) for a 6" Frost Draw for the Wall Hauler. You also don't need a seperate biner for the knot on the pull cord on the lifting ratchet. Just put it on the same biner as the pulley. Take a look around, one of Pete's friends put up some proper pictures of the thing on this site.
Cheers
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justsendingits
Jun 29, 2002, 11:25 AM
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PLEASE!! refer to the thread---PETZL warning!!!That picture of the 2-1 haul,----the pro trax has no biner through the bottom!!!!MAYDAY,MAYDAY,CODE BLUE IN SECTOR 4,ALL UNITS MOVE IN---THE WEASEL IS IN THE HENHOUSE,I REPEAT,--------THE WEASEL IS IN THE HEN HOUSE!!!!!!!
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-06-29 06:42 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jun 29, 2002, 2:57 PM
Post #33 of 79
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WARNING!!!
The photos that I have published which are linked to this post, and which you see below, may be wrong and dangerous!
Petzl has recently issued a a warning concerning the Traxion and ProTraxion.
You can click here to read where Richard's pig took the BIG PLUNGE when his Traxion failed!
I have never used a Petzl Mini-Traxion or Pro-Traxion and cannot comment on their safety in this particular application. I am, however, quite amazed that Petzl would market a device that could fail! I never once guessed that such a thing was possible, which is why I didn't think twice about publishing Spike's photo, which you see below.
However after reading Petzl's warning, I have to say, "stop!"
I am calling upon the two Richards, Spike and Justsendingits, to help me sort out this mess!
We might have to redo this photo!
In the meantime, perhaps you had best not build your 2:1 as you see below, using the Petzl Traxion. Use a Wall Hauler or a Kong Roll Block as your holding ratchet instead of the Petzl Traxion. Dr. Piton has himself used and personally tested the latter two devices, and they are both safe.
DON'T DO THIS:
Note: This is one of those rare occasions in life where I ask,
"Don't do as I say, do as I do."
Yours in amazement with his jaw hanging open,
Dr. Piton
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justsendingits
Jun 29, 2002, 3:58 PM
Post #34 of 79
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The Petz warning speaks for itself!!!!!
Due to my not clipping a crab through the bottom of the pro trax,there is no way I can blame the manafacture for a any design flaw they might have in the pro trax.(although their warning makes me wonder)
I have always loved Petz products!!(well maybe not the Duo headlamp)And I don't want to thrash Petz if it was my fault,(pretty sure it was my fault)but I am just trying to figure it out.
At the end of the day,regardles what happend to me,the PETZ WARNING speaks for itself!!
safe passage
R
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passthepitonspete
Jun 29, 2002, 4:11 PM
Post #35 of 79
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See the photo above?
See that hole in the bottom of the gold Traxion?
Clip a carabiner through it.
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brisboy
Jul 1, 2002, 11:22 AM
Post #36 of 79
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In phils defense, Frost draws are crap! Now i know i am going to get bagged for saying this, but i check out a frost draw today also known as a power draw, something very rare to fine in Brisbane Australia,
Why use a frost draw rated to 10kn yes that right a samll 10kn and you pay close to $20 AUD for it when you can pay a small $8 AUD a n get a nylon or spectra drway that is rated to 25kn,
Plus the theory is still all the same it does the job, so why bitch about it?
plus in the situation of the binner in the hole why not clip it, i would think twice about it while setting it up weather i would trust the small pin thing from twisting or the sideplate from bending
Grant
[ This Message was edited by: brisboy on 2002-07-01 04:25 ]
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taxexile
Jul 1, 2002, 12:15 PM
Post #37 of 79
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Grant
The idea behind using a Frost draw is that it doesn't stretch at all. Nylon draw = stretch = more work.
As for its strength rating, I'll take your word for this. However, since the system should not be dynamically loaded, you'd need a pretty firkin enormous swine before it mattered.
Anyway, 20 Pacific Pesos is only about 50 pence in real money, right?
Duncan
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socalclimber
Jul 2, 2002, 2:39 PM
Post #38 of 79
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Grant,
The whole point of the Frost Draw is indeed to reduce the amount of stretch in the system. As you are pulling the load up using the hauling ratchet, there is virtualy no tension on the rope going into the wall hauler, but when the hauler reaches the top of it's stroke, the load is transferred to the wall hauler, and you lose some of the distance you hauled through rope stretch. Now add a little bit of stretch with Nylon inter-connnecting the wall hauler to the anchor. Trust me, you would be amazed how much stretch a static line can have. Add all this up, and it just makes the device less efficient. The Frost Draw is perfect for this application. The key to the hauling ratchet is NO STRETCH. I've had learned the hard way that in aid climbing, every inch you loose counts!
I would also recommend you buy the MOST static line you can find. I use the new Sterling 9.8m static line. The thing is amazing. I have heard it only stretches around %2, I have not verified this with Sterling, but I can tell you the thing handles like a cable, but behaves like a dynamic.
Robert
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passthepitonspete
Jul 2, 2002, 3:49 PM
Post #39 of 79
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As well as eliminating stretch, which is essential when hauling 250-pound loads, you hugely eliminate [b]clusterf*ck[/b] because you don't have a nylon sling in the way.
The wire of the Frost Draw is very thin and non-intrusive. And it works like magic!
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punk
Jul 2, 2002, 11:09 PM
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Check my reply for a solution to this
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passthepitonspete
Jul 18, 2002, 3:54 AM
Post #41 of 79
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Below you can see the actual Hauling Ratchet I made using a Kong Block Roll during my recent solo ascent of The Shortest Straw.
You can click here to read the photo caption, which explains what's what.
You can see that this is a very slick little assembly which worked beautifully while substantially reducing clusterf*ckage.
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climbhigher
Jan 1, 2003, 9:52 AM
Post #42 of 79
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KICK ASS!!! you have alota beta. But it seems to me this system requires alot of %@#$ing gear!!!!! When the pig gets stuck rope soloing, i just rap down (hopefully the pig doesn't get stuck until after halfway up the rope!!) and start hauling from the free end of the haul line where the pig is stuck from. Gotta back up the wall hauler in case the pin comes out and the rope comes out of the wall hauler. a Tibloc is good for that. I always beleive less gear the better.
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copperhead
Jan 1, 2003, 6:57 PM
Post #43 of 79
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Quote:
i just rap down (hopefully the pig doesn't get stuck until after halfway up the rope!!) and start hauling from the free end of the haul line where the pig is stuck from. Gotta back up the wall hauler in case the pin comes out and the rope comes out of the wall hauler. a Tibloc is good for that.
Maybe I am missing something (this is always possible).
Are you saying that you rap down the haul line, supported by a Wall hauler (infamous for shredding ropes with a large load), backed up by a Tibloc? Are you no longer tied into the lead-line while doing this?
Why not rap down the lead-line (you stay tied into it and it’s tied into the belay (bomber)), especially if your bag gets stuck in the first half of the pitch?
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-01 17:05 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 2, 2003, 9:33 PM
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Rappeling a Wall Hauler with nothing but you on it [when descending to clean the pitch] is freakin' scary and dangerous enough - rapping a 1 KN device with you and your pig is STUPID.
There could not be a simpler and less complicated device than the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet.
And riddle me this:
What do you do if the pig happens to be stuck more than halfway down?
[HINT] - you should have set up a Far End Hauler ahead of time.
Please don't reply here unless it is to do with the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet.
If it's to do with the Far End Hauler, please use the link above.
Cheers,
Pete
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copperhead
Jan 3, 2003, 1:00 AM
Post #45 of 79
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Quote:
Rappeling a Wall Hauler with nothing but you on it [when descending to clean the pitch] is freakin' scary and dangerous enough - rapping a 1 KN device with you and your pig is STUPID.
I think “not a good idea” would sound a little less harsh.
Quote:
There could not be a simpler and less complicated device than the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet.
REALLY?
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alpinelynx
Jan 3, 2003, 3:19 AM
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dolt cart.
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copperhead
Jan 3, 2003, 3:39 AM
Post #47 of 79
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Don't forget the generator to winch that puppy up there.
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mojorisin
Feb 5, 2003, 1:28 AM
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OK,,, I just pulled down a shelf holding all the vcr tapes in the bedroom while building and testing my 2:1 hauler. However,,,, I have to agree this is simple and easy to put together. Thanks Pete for all the effort that you put into this thread. My eyes are burning from reading all this but tomorrow is another day,,,L8R
[ This Message was edited by: mojorisin on 2003-02-04 18:46 ]
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copperhead
Feb 5, 2003, 5:01 AM
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I like the large font; the bigger the target, the easier it is to hit.
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