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brent_e
Jan 19, 2009, 3:40 PM
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This is the latest set of ice tools that I've made. More info is in the link. Briefly, they are build around a water jet cut 6061 aluminum frame and reinforced with wood and carbon fiber. I've employed a Vacuum assisted resin transfer method (VARTM) which gives a more consistent, lighter, and repeatable product.
take a look at the link for pictures and a few more details.
http://www.pbase.com/...ter/latest_ice_tools
let me know what you think!
Brent
(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 19, 2009, 3:40 PM)
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Johnny_Fang
Jan 19, 2009, 3:56 PM
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these are way better than the ones my friend made out of hardened plastic and a filed down bolt
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skiclimb
Jan 19, 2009, 4:24 PM
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look great. Guess the proof will be in how they swing and how they stick.
Nice work!
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angry
Jan 19, 2009, 4:38 PM
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I would have some concerns with the wood.
I would worry that frequent dry tooling and weird torquing would loosen up the wood over time. Similar to how a Popsicle stick is stiff then if you gently flex it around you can make it much more bendy without breaking it.
My other concern would be if moisture got inside and rotted the wood.
Not that either of these things would break the tool but it would change the way it performs over time.
Also, does the aluminum skeleton have enough strength to support the tool by itself? Maybe I just like my monsters too much but that looked interesting.
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ersatz_radio
Jan 19, 2009, 4:43 PM
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How expensive is water jet cutting?
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graniteboy
Jan 19, 2009, 11:20 PM
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I would agree about the issue of wood eventually rotting inside. Although a few people make wood/glass/carbon composite kayaks, they never last very long, and have horrible dryrot issues.
Nice design, wrong materials.
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brent_e
Jan 20, 2009, 2:55 AM
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angry wrote: I would have some concerns with the wood. I would worry that frequent dry tooling and weird torquing would loosen up the wood over time. Similar to how a Popsicle stick is stiff then if you gently flex it around you can make it much more bendy without breaking it. My other concern would be if moisture got inside and rotted the wood. Not that either of these things would break the tool but it would change the way it performs over time. Also, does the aluminum skeleton have enough strength to support the tool by itself? Maybe I just like my monsters too much but that looked interesting.
these are good concerns. The wood would not "loosen", though, without the tool failing completely. If you think of your popsicle stick analogy you have to flex the stick past it responding elastically meaning that you're permanently deforming it. The maple, in this case, acts as a core to the carbon while also adding stiffness itself. If it get's bent past it's elastic boundary the carbon will have already broken. I haven't figured out what load this will be at yet. "Regular" use, including jamming the head in a crack and doing a pull-up on the tool shouldn't break it!
regarding moisture. Since the tools were infused under vacuum the resin will have impregnated the wood sealing it from water.
I've climbed with the aluminum frame only. They have enough support in the direction that the pick would be pulled straight down but still flex. They don't have enough support perpendicular to this axis, hence the carbon and wood. Really, the frame just allows me to have an accurate way to keep the pick angle constant between tools and a way to attach the pick as well as giving me an outline for the rest of the manufacturing.
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brent_e
Jan 20, 2009, 3:03 AM
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graniteboy wrote: I would agree about the issue of wood eventually rotting inside. Although a few people make wood/glass/carbon composite kayaks, they never last very long, and have horrible dryrot issues. Nice design, wrong materials.
I didn't consider this and I guess I'll see if it's an issue.
the next set I will make will use a structural foam instead of the wood with more fiber to make up for the lack of stiffness in the foam compared to the wood.
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davidhiers
Jan 20, 2009, 8:00 AM
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Looks pretty sweet!
What sort of testing do you do on the homebrew gear?
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/cert_files/UIAA152_IceTools01-2004.pdf
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yodadave
Jan 20, 2009, 12:44 PM
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i really don't think dry rot will be an issue. how would any fungus get to the wood?
And as for the Kayak comment well its not unusual to see Wood/Glass yaks from the 70's around where i live so i think Granite boy is just guessing on his post.
However....
i do have some undisclosed concerns which could be easily answered if you simply send the tools to me 
nice tools mate
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graniteboy
Jan 20, 2009, 5:32 PM
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Fungus spores are everywhere, just like bacteria. They were on the surface of the wood before he wrapped them in Carbon and epoxy. This is half the reason why all those glass/wood boats eventually go to dry rot. You CAN keep the rot from happening, but the first time any water gets in, you're on the downward spiral. And ice tools will eventually get water under the resin/carbon matrix.
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brent_e
Jan 20, 2009, 5:36 PM
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the swing swing kick kick type of testing.
The aluminum frame has had some FEA done on it. I can't remember the exact numbers it failed at.
After looking at the actual tests I have confidence that it would pass for T rating but I would have to do the tests to see. I don't have the facilities to do so or access to them as I don't have a budget to do so.
(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 20, 2009, 6:31 PM)
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angry
Jan 20, 2009, 6:10 PM
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It just hit me, those follow the same basic lines as the Quantum Monster, correct?
I love the idea of the Quantum, all the dry tool goodness of the Monster with a lighter tool and it doesn't have the seahorse shape getting in the way of certain swings. They, like the original Monster don't climb ice that well because of the massive pick and that they are designed to climb severely overhanging rock.
With your design you should be able to climb rock as well (minus a few spring steel tricks) and have an x-monster pick that would climb ice a lot better.
If you're interested in cutting one of those bad boys out of spring steel and not using wood on it, give me a call.
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graniteboy
Jan 20, 2009, 6:31 PM
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They use a pressure/vacuum bagging system to infuse the wood with resin on the kayaks I spoke of, too....but nonetheless....
A little nick is all it takes. And kayaks and ice tool handles eventually get nicks in them. Follow that up with a runny drippy climb, and you're on your way to get dryrot.
I think you're on the right track with your design, but I would suggest not using wood...even though I love wood and use solid ash oars on my whitewater Oar rig....But I expect them to go bad eventually.
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brent_e
Jan 20, 2009, 6:34 PM
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graniteboy wrote: They use a pressure/vacuum bagging system to infuse the wood with resin on the kayaks I spoke of, too....but nonetheless.... A little nick is all it takes. And kayaks and ice tool handles eventually get nicks in them. Follow that up with a runny drippy climb, and you're on your way to get dryrot. I think you're on the right track with your design, but I would suggest not using wood...even though I love wood and use solid ash oars on my whitewater Oar rig....But I expect them to go bad eventually.
I will see if they stand the test of time. Before they reach the end, though, I will have another version with foam as the core.
if anyone wants to try that version send me a PM.
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the_climber
Jan 20, 2009, 6:58 PM
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Brent, if you're using a vacume I wou;dn't worry about the dry rot at all. I've made a few canoes and have never had a problem with dry rot. A couple of these canoes are over 15 years old now and the Maple, birch, oak trim is in the same condition as the ceder: perfect. That is with straight glassing, no vacume. All the boats have seem extensive regular use. I also know a number of folks who have 25+ year old boats. If the glass is done right, there is no problem.
As for vacume tequniques, just look at wood cored skis. No problem. In fact there are people who have been making their own skis and companies who make small runs of skis... without top plates, simply lightly glassed tops. Again, no problem.
Keep it up man.
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graniteboy
Jan 20, 2009, 11:47 PM
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Yes, Yes...that's why the marine supply companies are selling tens of thousands of dollars worth of dry rot products every year....because wood boats never rot, huh? Wood, although it's beautiful and has a great feel to it (I still paddle a Mitchell wood paddle when kayaking hard technical water), is not the material to be making ice axe handles out of.
Yvonne Choiunard figured that out about 3 decades ago when he did away with teh laminated bamboo shaft on his Piolets....he, nd BD after him... shifted to synthetic composites and metals.
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brent_e
Jan 21, 2009, 12:42 AM
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Thanks Brenden,
regardless and this should end the discussion on dry rot (please?), the next ones will have a foam core.
mitchell paddles looks nice, BTW.
Brent
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anykineclimb
Jan 21, 2009, 2:06 AM
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Looking nice Brent.
so when do I get to test a set?
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gunkiemike
Jan 21, 2009, 11:01 AM
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My wooden touring skis turn 36 yr old this season. Still strong and great to ski.
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tigerlilly
Jan 21, 2009, 8:29 PM
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Just out of curiosity (I do not need new tools) how much did they cost you to make?
Personally, my idea of an ideal ice tool for my needs would be a Quark pick on a Grivel Quantum Tech handle.
Kathy
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angry
Jan 22, 2009, 2:48 AM
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tigerlilly wrote: Just out of curiosity (I do not need new tools) how much did they cost you to make? Personally, my idea of an ideal ice tool for my needs would be a Quark pick on a Grivel Quantum Tech handle. Kathy
Do you have a traumatic head injury? Huffing glue? A brain sucking slug?
Seriously, the Quark is beyond inferior in every way, right down to the pick.
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