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ladyscarlett


Jan 28, 2009, 1:45 AM
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Climbing buddy ettiquette?
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As a beginner, I have to ask about climbing buddy etiquette.

Right now I have awesome climbing buddies-no concerns.

Yet in the past few months I have been involved in some odd climbing partner drama.

Example: I do go to a gym between outdoor trips(a girl's has to train! Have to keep up!). I go enough that I am part of a group of friends who belay each other if needed if we see each other, nothing complicated. Drama = person 1 has unknown disagreement with person 2. Person 1 gets upset at me for belaying person 2 and equates it to cheating. Is this junior high?!

I know this isn't climbing specific, but understanding the etiquette within a community is important and I don't want to inadvertently ruffle feathers (I do that on purpose!) . Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person? Not joining, but simply climbing with another person when regular partner is not available?

Is this kind of reaction more of a person to person specific? Is there climbing buddy etiquette I should know about?

insight appreciated!

ls


bradley3297


Jan 28, 2009, 1:54 AM
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That sounds RIDICULOUS. i climb with alot of partners. some better than me and some equal ability and some not as good as me. i think having multiple partners is a good thing. i climb too often for most people anyway have a single partner. but the whole cheating thing. ridiculous. whoever these people are they need to get a grip. they must have abandonment issues or something...lol.


16stfd16


Jan 28, 2009, 2:15 AM
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Re: [bradley3297] Climbing buddy ettiquette? [In reply to]
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That is prolly most rediculous thing ive heard, unfortunatley i do know some people who act like that, ive been denied belays and had climbing trips turned down becuase the climber will say somthing like "i would belay you but my partner gets kinda jelous" i think its really funny when somthing like that happens. But whatever i guess, i mean who am i to get in between their bro-mance.Laugh


subantz


Jan 28, 2009, 2:33 AM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Climbing buddy ettiquette? [In reply to]
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 I will take a catch from any friend anytime. As long as I trust the person belaying. I guess you could say I am a climbing partner whore.


brownie710


Jan 28, 2009, 2:39 AM
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hilarious, two of my climbing buddies climb together very often and when I climb with one without the other I always joke that i'm the mistress. we all think it's funny though, no one get's pissy. I'd say if someone does call em on it and if it's a big deal avoid them


looserock


Jan 28, 2009, 2:55 AM
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Sounds like a case of an obsessive acquaintance. I've met some over the years. They go thru life smothering every friend they make. Unimpressed


coastal_climber


Jan 28, 2009, 3:35 AM
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Re: [bradley3297] Climbing buddy ettiquette? [In reply to]
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bradley3297 wrote:
i think having multiple partners is a good thing.


I concur.


moose_droppings


Jan 28, 2009, 4:13 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
Is this junior high?!

ding* ding* ding*
I'm going with this answer.


Partner oldsalt


Jan 28, 2009, 4:51 AM
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I will give anyone a belay in the gym, but I want to see them belaying someone else before I take a ride from them. I don't always follow my own advice, but it is a gut call when I don't.

The best way to add an "any time/any place" belayer is to climb outdoors with them and swap lead belays. After that, I would trust them without concern.

A top rope belay in a gym tells you only if the person is an idiot, not that they are competent.


cush


Jan 28, 2009, 5:42 AM
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punch them both in the nose and get some new, more mature friends.


mince


Jan 28, 2009, 5:45 AM
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holy shit this is insanity


curt


Jan 28, 2009, 5:53 AM
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Time to take up bouldering.

Curt


clmbr


Jan 28, 2009, 6:01 AM
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Hi ladyscarlett. I wouldn't think you're in the wrong at all even if you knew they had disagreement.All ur doing is rock climbing after all.

I'd think the only way someone could be upset is if you told one friend you can't climb that day and rock on up with someone else while they're there. That might be a little awkward. I always check the carpark thoroughly if I do that.Wink


suilenroc


Jan 28, 2009, 8:30 AM
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Its CLIMBING not SEX.

Get on with your life.

The End.


onceahardman


Jan 28, 2009, 1:12 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Climbing buddy ettiquette? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Person 1 gets upset at me for belaying person 2 and equates it to cheating.

Why do you have to be such a slut?

Smile


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Jan 28, 2009, 7:43 PM)


dudemanbu


Jan 28, 2009, 1:27 PM
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Re: [coastal_climber] Climbing buddy ettiquette? [In reply to]
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coastal_climber wrote:
bradley3297 wrote:
i think having multiple partners is a good thing.


I concur.

As long as you use adequate protection.


taydude


Jan 28, 2009, 2:14 PM
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I think you'll find that this drama tends to stay in the gym. Only time I've seen this sort of thing perpetuate outside is when the idiots that do it all go sport climbing together. Long story short, I'm never going sport climbing with that many people ever again.


Tree_wrangler


Jan 28, 2009, 2:30 PM
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In reply to:
Sounds like a case of an obsessive acquaintance. I've met some over the years. They go thru life smothering every friend they make.

I've met more than a few. Probably because I make the mistake of respectfully listening to their pathetic ramblings for more than 10 seconds.


lodi5onu


Jan 28, 2009, 2:32 PM
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Yeah right! Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fryer. Bouldering has it's completely own rules of ettiquette from top-roping.
just a few examples, many of which have been covered in other threads:
1. Powerspotting a chick without getting the OK from her bf is grounds for a beatdown, unless you climb harder than him because the harder climber always supersedes the weaker
2. Spraying beta is acceptable if you have seen the problem in question being sent. If you have yourself sent the problem, than unsolicited beta is acceptable
3. When watching a stronger climber try a problem, some words of encouragement are required, whether he/she sends or not...this will allow others in the gym know that you understand the ettiquette and realize your place in the hierarchy
4. If there are movable mats on the floor, relocating the mats is acceptable only under the following circumstances.
a. nobody else is using the mat
b. a hot chick needs the mat
c. you are the stronger climber


N_Oo_B


Jan 28, 2009, 3:30 PM
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lol

loose the idiot friends, get new ones that have grown up.


lena_chita
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Jan 28, 2009, 3:32 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is this junior high?!

ding* ding* ding*
I'm going with this answer.

Me too.

Some people bring drama into everything.

There is no special "climber buddy etiquette". There are general rules of polite behavior that apply to climbing partners, as well other people.

If you made specific arrangements with one person for specific time and day -- then yeah, you don't just start climbing with another person without saying something to the first person, and the proper thing to do would be not to ditch the first person you made prior arrangements with, but to ask that person if he/she would mind the third spur-fo-the-moment person joining the two of you, if you feel obligated to help that third person, too.

If there haven't been any arangements made-- then you can climb with whoever is there, but again, if all of you are part of the same group, the polite thing to do would be to include the odd-one-out who may not have anyone else to climb with on that day.


d0nk3yk0n9


Jan 28, 2009, 3:34 PM
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Adding to the bouldering etiquette, but on a slightly more serious note, when multiple people are climbing the same problem, it's courteous to spot others, unless, as mentioned before, they (or their significant others) tell you not to. Also, people tend to get slightly annoyed with you if you jump in front of them to climb a problem. Finally, wipe the mud and dirt off of your shoes before you start climbing anything; not only does this help you climb, but other people hate it when you get all the holds muddy and harder to climb on.


karlie


Jan 28, 2009, 3:36 PM
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"Powerspotting" ?

more details please


Basta916


Jan 28, 2009, 3:41 PM
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taydude wrote:
I think you'll find that this drama tends to stay in the gym. Only time I've seen this sort of thing perpetuate outside is when the idiots that do it all go sport climbing together. Long story short, I'm never going sport climbing with that many people ever again.

LOL...and you know when they are coming, Looks like a school bus just arrived at your local crag.......Unsure


Gmburns2000


Jan 28, 2009, 3:56 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
As a beginner, I have to ask about climbing buddy etiquette.

Right now I have awesome climbing buddies-no concerns.

Yet in the past few months I have been involved in some odd climbing partner drama.

Example: I do go to a gym between outdoor trips(a girl's has to train! Have to keep up!). I go enough that I am part of a group of friends who belay each other if needed if we see each other, nothing complicated. Drama = person 1 has unknown disagreement with person 2. Person 1 gets upset at me for belaying person 2 and equates it to cheating. Is this junior high?!

I know this isn't climbing specific, but understanding the etiquette within a community is important and I don't want to inadvertently ruffle feathers (I do that on purpose!) . Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person? Not joining, but simply climbing with another person when regular partner is not available?

Is this kind of reaction more of a person to person specific? Is there climbing buddy etiquette I should know about?

insight appreciated!

ls

I would've punched Person 1 in the chops. And then I would have gone out on a well-publicized date with Person 2 just for spite.

Person 1 sounds like a douchebag.


lodi5onu


Jan 28, 2009, 4:21 PM
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Powerspotting - extreme and/or intense spotting of a fellow boulder; sometimes unwarranted or unnecessary due to the lack of any real danger should the climber fall. Powerspotters often use perfect knees and elbows bent, back straight, palms out form while offering calm words of encouragement, although on harder projects the words may take on a tone of excitement or desperation. Spotters hands are usually not more than 1.3 inches from climbers back.


lodi5onu


Jan 28, 2009, 4:26 PM
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote:
Adding to the bouldering etiquette, but on a slightly more serious note, when multiple people are climbing the same problem, it's courteous to spot others, unless, as mentioned before, they (or their significant others) tell you not to. Also, people tend to get slightly annoyed with you if you jump in front of them to climb a problem. Finally, wipe the mud and dirt off of your shoes before you start climbing anything; not only does this help you climb, but other people hate it when you get all the holds muddy and harder to climb on.

Another reason for this act of courteousness is because gym climbers often become confused and frustrated when confronted with the fact that an outdoor arena does exists in which people practice their discipline.


Valarc


Jan 28, 2009, 4:32 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?




Osarusan


Jan 28, 2009, 6:27 PM
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lodi5onu wrote:
Powerspotting - extreme and/or intense spotting of a fellow boulder; sometimes unwarranted or unnecessary due to the lack of any real danger should the climber fall. Powerspotters often use perfect knees and elbows bent, back straight, palms out form while offering calm words of encouragement, although on harder projects the words may take on a tone of excitement or desperation. Spotters hands are usually not more than 1.3 inches from climbers back.

So just to be clear, Powerspotter = douchebag?


Gmburns2000


Jan 28, 2009, 6:33 PM
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lodi5onu wrote:
Powerspotting - extreme and/or intense spotting of a fellow boulder; sometimes unwarranted or unnecessary due to the lack of any real danger should the climber fall. Powerspotters often use perfect knees and elbows bent, back straight, palms out form while offering calm words of encouragement, although on harder projects the words may take on a tone of excitement or desperation. Spotters hands are usually not more than 1.3 inches from climbers back.

you forgot that thumbs should be rolled in.


Gmburns2000


Jan 28, 2009, 6:33 PM
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Valarc wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?


gotta admit, the fact that it changes with each refresh is kind of clever.


Valarc


Jan 28, 2009, 6:40 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Valarc wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?


gotta admit, the fact that it changes with each refresh is kind of clever.

I blatantly stole the idea, but it's awesome and was thus worth ganking.


ladyscarlett


Jan 28, 2009, 7:33 PM
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suilenroc wrote:
Its CLIMBING not SEX.

Get on with your life.

The End.

Heh, yes, when first confronted I did say something like this, and was shot back with something along the lines of 'it's on the same level' which totally did not make sense to me. My partner's life might be in my hands, but really!

I personally love having multiple partners (heh!) - it really does allow for a variety of options!

But thanks all, I too thought situations like these (yes there have been multiple) were a little crazy, and it's good to hear the reality check.

Thanks for the bouldering tips, I am trying to do more bouldering these days to stay a balanced climber, and there really is a set of unspoken "rules" that I still don't know the half of! Good to know.

My most recent etiquette fauxpas = instigating a spur of the moment climbing trip with a buddy before asking his GF if she had plans for them. The last time I'll make that mistake for sure!

Once again, thanks for confirming the ridiculousness...

ls

ps-love the pics - exactly my first reaction!


tigerlilly


Jan 28, 2009, 7:49 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
My most recent etiquette fauxpas = instigating a spur of the moment climbing trip with a buddy before asking his GF if she had plans for them.

Checking with the GF is his responsibility, imho. Most of my partners are married, engaged or have been living with their SO's long enough to qualify as married, and I leave it up to them to check with their other halves.

Kathy


fxgranite


Jan 28, 2009, 8:41 PM
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Valarc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Valarc wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?


gotta admit, the fact that it changes with each refresh is kind of clever.

I blatantly stole the idea, but it's awesome and was thus worth ganking.

definitly worth ganking. I especially like the one of the half naked babe.

edited to make pic visable again

(This post was edited by fxgranite on Jan 28, 2009, 8:42 PM)


caliclimbergrl


Jan 28, 2009, 8:47 PM
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I totally know people like this!!! In my experience it is much worse among women for some reason. I used to have a climbing parter that would get jealous if I climbed with other people. It was way worse if they were guys. And extreme if it was a boyfriend. I think it's nuts, but I know it happens. My advice -- stick to climbing with partners that are as drama-free as possible!


tigerlilly


Jan 28, 2009, 9:41 PM
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caliclimbergrl wrote:
My advice -- stick to climbing with partners that are as drama-free as possible!

Amen, sista'! If I want drama, I'll go to the theater.

Kathy


theguy


Jan 28, 2009, 10:25 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
you forgot that thumbs should be rolled in.

...or you could end up in I&A: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...2;page=unread#unread

Actually, better wear a helmet too...


Adk


Jan 28, 2009, 10:34 PM
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My wife does not climb due to an elbow injury and I would bet she would think this is childish as well.
I belay lots of people. Women, married and unmarried , children, boys and girls, and even probably eunuchs too but to get bent on belaying someone when in fact it is all about safety is borderline retarded.
What does she have lazer vision as you look at his package from below? I'm guessing this is a girl. Maybe not though.
Make it an issue to not belay him when she is there just to make her look like an ass in front of everyone. Everyone will catch on quickly and put the pressure to them both. He needs to have enough nads to tell his girlfriend to sit down, shut up and RELAX!!! After all, who does he go home with?
The proper etiquette goes like this if you trust the person.

Person one: "Hey, will you belay me so I can send this?

Person two: "Sure"

Person one: "On belay?"

Person two: "Belay on" etc....

No where in there did "person two" mention anything about a peak at package size in relation to the job of belaying. Blush

It sounds like someone has some issues of insecurity with their relationship. That is not YOUR problem.


ladyscarlett


Jan 29, 2009, 12:52 AM
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Funny thing was that most situations it's not a GF/BF situation - more like - he/she (no gender discrimination here!) didn't respond to my climbing related email and then has the nerve to show up and belay you, so you shouldn't be belaying him/her.....

The more I write it out, the more ridiculous it sounds...but when it's a part of one's common climbing experience, one starts forgetting it's ridiculous and expects it as the norm...that's why I appreciate reality checks from the outside! heh

But yes, I usually try to leave the drama out of climbing. It's a slow process, but it still seems to seek me out...sigh. Is there always The One? Funny thing is that said climbing buddy constantly asks me to invite her on outdoor trips - yeah right! Said climbing person may be safe, but I do not need that!

ls


k.l.k


Jan 29, 2009, 1:05 AM
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Mission Cliffs or Ironworks?


kriso9tails


Jan 29, 2009, 1:22 AM
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Osarusan wrote:
lodi5onu wrote:
Powerspotting - extreme and/or intense spotting of a fellow boulder; sometimes unwarranted or unnecessary due to the lack of any real danger should the climber fall. Powerspotters often use perfect knees and elbows bent, back straight, palms out form while offering calm words of encouragement, although on harder projects the words may take on a tone of excitement or desperation. Spotters hands are usually not more than 1.3 inches from climbers back.

So just to be clear, Powerspotter = douchebag?

Well, no since that's not really what power spotting is (or at the very least is an alternate definition)

Power spotting is the practice of pushing up slightly on the boulderer to alleviate a bit of weight so they can feel out a move while working a problem.


seatbeltpants


Jan 29, 2009, 2:15 AM
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i was wondering if that's what powerspotting was when i saw it mentioned - had a buddy of mine clutching at my arse all the way to the first bolt on a climb the other day.

was he keeping me safe, or copping a feel? who can say...

steve


kriso9tails


Jan 29, 2009, 2:26 AM
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seatbeltpants wrote:
was he keeping me safe, or copping a feel? who can say...

Well, power spotting isn't really about safety, but in this case I'd say it was probably both.

In that scenario he breached climbing etiquette though; he should have offered to get you at least mildly drunk before playing grab-ass.


irregularpanda


Jan 29, 2009, 2:29 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
Is this kind of reaction more of a person to person specific? Is there climbing buddy etiquette I should know about?

Climbers are like soap operas. Everybody is a slut.

Because you had to ask, you're buying the beer next time.


curt


Jan 29, 2009, 2:58 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote:
suilenroc wrote:
Its CLIMBING not SEX.

Get on with your life.

The End.

Heh, yes, when first confronted I did say something like this, and was shot back with something along the lines of 'it's on the same level' which totally did not make sense to me...

Doesn't make sense to me either--most climbing is vertical, except for the occasional traverse. Cool

Curt


Valarc


Jan 29, 2009, 3:05 AM
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curt wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
suilenroc wrote:
Its CLIMBING not SEX.

Get on with your life.

The End.

Heh, yes, when first confronted I did say something like this, and was shot back with something along the lines of 'it's on the same level' which totally did not make sense to me...

Doesn't make sense to me either--most climbing is vertical, except for the occasional traverse. Cool

Curt

Sex can be had on the vertical, too...


Knee pads are aid, though.


N_Oo_B


Jan 29, 2009, 4:19 AM
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Ask most climbers what it is that they enjoy so much and you'll find an answer the brings into focus your situation.


Personally I can only vouch for myself. It's about the fun of movement, challenge, outdoors, and who I'm with. They all focus together. Add in somebody that's bringing a bad energy with them, and the whole mood shifts.

I've taken some gym noobs out a few times, and learned my lesson quick enough.


curt


Jan 29, 2009, 4:28 AM
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Valarc wrote:
curt wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
suilenroc wrote:
Its CLIMBING not SEX.

Get on with your life.

The End.

Heh, yes, when first confronted I did say something like this, and was shot back with something along the lines of 'it's on the same level' which totally did not make sense to me...

Doesn't make sense to me either--most climbing is vertical, except for the occasional traverse. Cool

Curt

Sex can be had on the vertical, too...


Knee pads are aid, though.

aids should be avoided.

Curt


blondgecko
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Jan 29, 2009, 5:21 AM
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fxgranite wrote:
Valarc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Valarc wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?


gotta admit, the fact that it changes with each refresh is kind of clever.

I blatantly stole the idea, but it's awesome and was thus worth ganking.

definitly worth ganking. I especially like the one of the half naked babe.]

edited to make pic visable again

<-- Starts obsessively refreshing page.

Edited to fix cheesetittage


(This post was edited by blondgecko on Jan 29, 2009, 5:22 AM)


itakealot


Jan 29, 2009, 4:31 PM
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Back in the day this sort of behavior would have not been tolerated. Forget about the ro-sham-bo for poop bag duty, they would be assigned that forever!

I guess I was lucky with climbing partners.


dingus


Jan 29, 2009, 5:02 PM
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This behavior has nothing to do with climbing, per se. Its just normal social bullshit.

Weight lifters and body builders go thought this drama too.... folks who are consumed with 'body image' (sound familiar?) and therefore tote the egos necessary to drive that body image. They usually need work out partners, for some of the same reasons climbers do. They will tend to have their 'go to' partners, their 'casual partners' and the 'no fucking ways!'

OH THE DRAMA!

It all comes down to pack position, body image and sex.... same as most other human interactions.

Its NORMAL. Folks just get better at disguising it as they get older. I'd bet everyone on this board has indulged in some form of this behavior, post puberty.

DMT


shimanilami


Jan 29, 2009, 5:28 PM
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There is, of course, the possibility that you are truly a slut, and your climbing partners are trying to give you a hint.

(This is the explanation that turns me on the most.)


fxgranite


Jan 29, 2009, 5:44 PM
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blondgecko wrote:
fxgranite wrote:
Valarc wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Valarc wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Is it possible to "cheat" on climbing buddies? Are you expected to ask permission from one partner to climb with another person?

[image]http://www.facepalm.org/img.php[/image]

gotta admit, the fact that it changes with each refresh is kind of clever.

I blatantly stole the idea, but it's awesome and was thus worth ganking.

definitly worth ganking. I especially like the one of the half naked babe.]

edited to make pic visable again

<-- Starts obsessively refreshing page.

Edited to fix cheesetittage


BWHAHAHAHA

I got one! Or am I joking? Is there really a half naked babe? maybe just one more refresh....Tongue


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jan 29, 2009, 5:50 PM
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dingus wrote:
This behavior has nothing to do with climbing, per se. Its just normal social bullshit.

Weight lifters and body builders go thought this drama too.... folks who are consumed with 'body image' (sound familiar?) and therefore tote the egos necessary to drive that body image. They usually need work out partners, for some of the same reasons climbers do. They will tend to have their 'go to' partners, their 'casual partners' and the 'no fucking ways!'

OH THE DRAMA!

It all comes down to pack position, body image and sex.... same as most other human interactions.

Its NORMAL. Folks just get better at disguising it as they get older. I'd bet everyone on this board has indulged in some form of this behavior on this board, post puberty.

DMT

I want to disagree with the assumption that everyone here is post puberty.

Also, see fix above


budman


Jan 29, 2009, 6:22 PM
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Oh the Drama in each episode of As the Rope is Coiled!


Johnny_Fang


Jan 29, 2009, 6:25 PM
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dingus wrote:
This behavior has nothing to do with climbing, per se. Its just normal social bullshit.

Weight lifters and body builders go thought this drama too.... folks who are consumed with 'body image' (sound familiar?) and therefore tote the egos necessary to drive that body image. They usually need work out partners, for some of the same reasons climbers do. They will tend to have their 'go to' partners, their 'casual partners' and the 'no fucking ways!'

OH THE DRAMA!

It all comes down to pack position, body image and sex.... same as most other human interactions.

Its NORMAL. Folks just get better at disguising it as they get older. I'd bet everyone on this board has indulged in some form of this behavior, post puberty.

DMT

Thanks, Dingus, for writing what I didn't have the patience to write. You do that a lot.

I'm interested in a question for the OP: what are the genders and sexual preferences of Person 1, Person 2, and you? I'm betting there is a crush triangle going on here. It doesn't matter if you were climbing or digging holes, same stuff would have happened.


ladyscarlett


Jan 29, 2009, 7:11 PM
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
I'm interested in a question for the OP: what are the genders and sexual preferences of Person 1, Person 2, and you? I'm betting there is a crush triangle going on here. It doesn't matter if you were climbing or digging holes, same stuff would have happened.

me=female,straight, person 1=female, I think straight. rest of the group=guys, as far as I know straight. It could be about gender, but I've seen person 1 pull this kind of thing with others when everyone involved is female, so who knows. It's a little unexpected to see someone who approaches the rest of her life drama free, but brings it to climbing. One reason I thought it might be a climbing thing. Ah the vagaries of interpersonal dynamics!

curt wrote:
Valarc wrote:
curt wrote:
suilenroc wrote:
Its CLIMBING not SEX.

most climbing is vertical, except for the occasional traverse. Cool

Curt

Sex can be had on the vertical, too...

Knee pads are aid, though.

aids should be avoided.

Curt

Good points! Does the harness count as aid? what about the rope? What if you rig the harness from the rope? because you have a point - aid should be avoided..at least that's what my buddies keep telling me...hee hee,

ls


Maddhatter


Feb 1, 2009, 6:42 PM
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You are mean and have no loyalty. Thus, I will never climb with you. Tongue


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