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curt
Feb 3, 2009, 4:33 PM
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rgold wrote: Redundancy is a principle to be used thoughtfully where most appropriate, not a commandment to be followed slavishly...
It's somewhat telling about RC.com that no one even bothered to reply to (or comment on) the only worthwhile post in this thread. If you don't understand rgold's point, you will continue to be baffled by the entire concept of redundancy.
Curt
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fresh
Feb 3, 2009, 4:44 PM
Post #52 of 113
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spikeddem wrote: fresh wrote: the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough. if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything. Just going to point out that in a world with a million climbers in it there is a difference . . .
the important thing is to be aware of the risk and act accordingly. if you took a 1 in a million chance every day for 50 years, there's a 98% chance you'd still be alive. unless you got killed in a car accident or something, which is way more likely.
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reno
Feb 3, 2009, 4:53 PM
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curt wrote: rgold wrote: Redundancy is a principle to be used thoughtfully where most appropriate, not a commandment to be followed slavishly... It's somewhat telling about RC.com that no one even bothered to reply to (or comment on) the only worthwhile post in this thread. If you don't understand rgold's point, you will continue to be baffled by the entire concept of redundancy.
Might be that rgold's post is well understood by some, and totally misunderstood by the rest. Those that understand wouldn't have anything to add other than "Ah, yup." Those who don't understand simply don't have any frame of reference from which to argue.
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fxgranite
Feb 3, 2009, 5:34 PM
Post #54 of 113
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reno wrote: curt wrote: rgold wrote: Redundancy is a principle to be used thoughtfully where most appropriate, not a commandment to be followed slavishly... It's somewhat telling about RC.com that no one even bothered to reply to (or comment on) the only worthwhile post in this thread. If you don't understand rgold's point, you will continue to be baffled by the entire concept of redundancy. Might be that rgold's post is well understood by some, and totally misunderstood by the rest. Those that understand wouldn't have anything to add other than "Ah, yup." Those who don't understand simply don't have any frame of reference from which to argue.
Bingo. Which kind of brings us back to the whole point of the thread afterall.
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petsfed
Feb 3, 2009, 6:24 PM
Post #55 of 113
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Valarc wrote: dingus wrote: Valarc wrote: [ A locking biner through both tie in points probably won't get you killed, but you're delusional if you think it's in any way superior from a safety stand point. Now superior from a comfort or ergonomics or convenience standpoint, possibly - that's a tradeoff for you to decide. I'll stick to using my harness in the way it was designed. I used a biner through the harness for 15-20 years before a commercial harness belay loops were even available. I had trust issues with belay loops, back at the beginning. But I guess I'm dead from all that cross loading anyway, so nothing really matters. BURP! DMT I don't disagree. As I said, I don't think a biner through the tie in points is significantly more dangerous. I also sure as hell don't buy the argument that it's safer, either.
You're a lot less likely to get a shirt, hair, penis or sling stuck in the device while rapping if you attach via the belay loop. Gives you more room to work with too.
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Valarc
Feb 3, 2009, 7:07 PM
Post #56 of 113
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petsfed wrote: You're a lot less likely to get a shirt, hair, penis or sling stuck in the device while rapping if you attach via the belay loop. Gives you more room to work with too.
Thanks. I now know the subject of a good week's worth of nightmares.
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billl7
Feb 3, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #57 of 113
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It is typically very easy to double up the belay loop in the most critical situation.
What is the most critical situation? A factor 2 fall. When does that situation usually arise? At some anchor up off the deck. In this, is anything extra required to back up the belay loop? No because one is usually tied into something that is attached to the anchor; just run the belay biner(s) through both the belay loop and the loop of that other something. As an example, consider how one might do this when tied into the anchor with the rope.
Of course, some will argue to not belay from the harness in this situation.
Bill L
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drector
Feb 3, 2009, 7:58 PM
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Most harnesses that I have purchases have had two belay loops. It's one strand of webbing looped around twice and then sewn together to appear as a single loop. In actuality, it's two overlapping loops. It's so insanely strong that it would have to seriously damaged to break.
Take a close look at yours and see if it's of a similar construction.
Dave
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kobaz
Feb 13, 2009, 4:05 AM
Post #59 of 113
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reno wrote: curt wrote: rgold wrote: Redundancy is a principle to be used thoughtfully where most appropriate, not a commandment to be followed slavishly... It's somewhat telling about RC.com that no one even bothered to reply to (or comment on) the only worthwhile post in this thread. If you don't understand rgold's point, you will continue to be baffled by the entire concept of redundancy. Might be that rgold's post is well understood by some, and totally misunderstood by the rest. Those that understand wouldn't have anything to add other than "Ah, yup." Those who don't understand simply don't have any frame of reference from which to argue.
Ah, yup!
billl7 wrote: It is typically very easy to double up the belay loop in the most critical situation.
I thought I was the only one who did that. I already have a loop of rope around my tie-in points, from being tied into the rope. I generally just clip the loop of rope and the belay loop.
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coolcat83
Feb 13, 2009, 5:49 AM
Post #60 of 113
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Valarc wrote: petsfed wrote: You're a lot less likely to get a shirt, hair, penis or sling stuck in the device while rapping if you attach via the belay loop. Gives you more room to work with too. Thanks. I now know the subject of a good week's worth of nightmares.
if that happened i think cratering from belay loop failure might be a fast way to be put out of my misery
kobalz wrote: I thought I was the only one who did that. I already have a loop of rope around my tie-in points, from being tied into the rope. I generally just clip the loop of rope and the belay loop.
fact is that belay loops are redundant, and if you break it then your most likely dead or wishing you were. there are a lot of other things to worry about, like pro placements, old rusty pins, your partner, gri gri's. there are limits, your belay biner is not redundant, neither is your device.
(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Feb 13, 2009, 5:56 AM)
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petsfed
Feb 13, 2009, 6:16 AM
Post #61 of 113
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coolcat83 wrote: Valarc wrote: petsfed wrote: You're a lot less likely to get a shirt, hair, penis or sling stuck in the device while rapping if you attach via the belay loop. Gives you more room to work with too. Thanks. I now know the subject of a good week's worth of nightmares. if that happened i think cratering from belay loop failure might be a fast way to be put out of my misery kobalz wrote: I thought I was the only one who did that. I already have a loop of rope around my tie-in points, from being tied into the rope. I generally just clip the loop of rope and the belay loop. good idea but...when you are rapping two strands from a rap anchor? then what? you are not tied in so no tie in loop to clip. fact is that belay loops are redundant, and if you break it then your most likely dead or wishing you were. there are a lot of other things to worry about, like pro placements, old rusty pins, your partner, gri gri's. there are limits, your belay biner is not redundant, neither is your device.
You're not likely to subject a belay loop to the force equivalent of a factor 2 fall while rappelling. At least, that's how I'd justify it. Truthfully, I clip both simply because its less work than clipping the belay loop but not the loop of the rope.
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dingus
Feb 13, 2009, 3:24 PM
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There's always scrot gauging....
The ALL NATURAL belay loop backup.
DMT
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Valarc
Feb 13, 2009, 3:45 PM
Post #63 of 113
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Could do the same with a prince albert, methinks...
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machino
Feb 13, 2009, 3:46 PM
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It's funny all this belay loop talks reminds me of a interesting situation. Everyone knows that the belay loop is doubled, blah, blah, blah. And even if you question it, some of you, hopefully a small amount, connect your rappel/belay device through both the waist loop and the leg loop. Well I had a girl come into the gym (with here "high angle rescue team" who were all clueless) and noticed something funny with her harness. New BD harness, everything looked kosher except there was no belay loop. And this wasn't an alpine style harness. So I asked her, where is your belay loop. She replied confidently, "I cut it off." ??? I asked here why obviously since again its probably the strongest thing to clip anything to. She told me it was one more link in the chain and that eliminating these extra links was safer.
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billl7
Feb 13, 2009, 3:51 PM
Post #65 of 113
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On a not so funny note: A while back a new climber was told by a 'veteran' to cut off her belay loop. While not having formed her own opinion, she dutifully did and now regrets it.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 13, 2009, 3:52 PM)
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ACJ
Feb 14, 2009, 3:25 AM
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So I read a handful of replies and here is my two cents.
First off I believe the belay loop is already doubled. Any loop I have seen is always at least two layers or more.
Second, look around for some videos on the web about it. Testing videos show how the entire harness will rip apart before your belay loop breaks.
Third, don't back it up. Putting some POS webbing on there is only showing that you don't understand what is going on or how to check your gear. Plus it spreads to other people and then all of a sudden there are morons everywhere who back up their belay loops.
Fourth, take everything off your harness every night. Do you girth hitch a sling to your belay loop to clip in with? Okay, well is it taken off every day? No? Then how do you know it's not cutting through the loop? Especially dyneema slings, if you never remove them, and they load on the exact same spot hundreds of times, yes they will cut your belay loop.
So overall, it's great to hear that you are interested in understanding as much as possible in climbing and systems. Take training, learn from guides, do research. For the most part our friends don't know what's up, you have to look to a VARIETY of professionals to get a consensus. Just one person, guide, gear tester, whatever is not enough. DON'T think that your logic is better than others. There is a reason this stuff is used and tested. The people who don't understand climbing equipment, skills, and techniques are the ones who say it's crazy dangerous and make sure everything is backed up and bomb proof for dropping herds of cattle onto! Next thing you know the insurance company is involved and you need multiple ropes to climb safe while top roping at summer camp! (Yes I get irritated about it) In the end though, would any gear company release a harness with a belay loop that might fail under proper use?
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RobDude
Feb 17, 2009, 11:03 PM
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I was just reading about some famous, well-known rock climber who died when his belay loop broke.
Crazy.
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jamincan
Feb 18, 2009, 1:04 PM
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RobDude wrote: I was just reading about some famous, well-known rock climber who died when his belay loop broke. Crazy.
You should always inspect your gear beforehand. The explanation I have always heard was that Todd Skinner had girth hitched a sling to his belay loop permanently for use at anchors. Overtime, it wore through the loop until it failed.
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petsfed
Feb 18, 2009, 5:37 PM
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RobDude wrote: I was just reading about some famous, well-known rock climber who died when his belay loop broke. Crazy.
As opposed to a famous but not terribly well known climber? The two are synonyms.
Skinner's death is actually pretty well understood, and there's some valuable lessons to take away from it, like completely inspect your gear on a regular basis, and don't permanently attach a daisy to your belay loop such that it never moves and hides wear spots.
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RobDude
Feb 18, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Wow man, I'm totally impressed with your pedantic reply. I'm looking for an administrative assistant, and I think you've shown yourself well qualified to take care of these very trivial tasks.
Starting wage is $9.00 an hour.
No, but seriously, for a supposed group of laid back rock climbers, this forum sure has a lot of jackasses.
There - now that we've had a retarded e-pissing match, let's move on, shall we?
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 18, 2009, 6:36 PM
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RobDude wrote: Wow man, I'm totally impressed with your pedantic reply. I'm looking for an administrative assistant, and I think you've shown yourself well qualified to take care of these very trivial tasks. Starting wage is $9.00 an hour. No, but seriously, for a supposed group of laid back rock climbers, this forum sure has a lot of jackasses. There - now that we've had a retarded e-pissing match, let's move on, shall we?
Lets not move on. There is nothing to move on from. There was one good answer and no more need be said.
Except you accused "us" of being laid back. How dare you bring your stereotypes and expect "us" to follow?
I've interacted with some of the highest quality a$$holes here, and damn happy about it.
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RobDude
Feb 18, 2009, 7:34 PM
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I'm suggesting we move on from 7th grade writing class, that's all.
Last I checked, this forum was about Rock Climbing. If you want to go out of your way to point out trivial grammatical mistakes, typos, or whatever else floats your boat; feel free.
But you should certainly expect people to be throughly unimpressed and argumentative after it.
Beyond that, wtf are you talking about? You sound like an angry 7th grader (whoa! Wait a minute, now it's starting to make sense....).
I'm sorry if your panties are in a wad because I, *gasp*, 'stereotyped' you. I said rock climbers were laid back! OH NOES! I'M JUDGING YOU!!!!
WAAAAA!
Serious man, grow up.
I'm glad you enjoy interacting with a$$holes - but this is a 'Beginners' forum about Rock Climbing. If you think it's a good idea to jump on posters here for asinine grammatical mistakes - you're an a$$hole. And if you are going to get so upset over a newbie on a 'Beginners' forum on a public rock climbing website saying that he was under the impression that rock climbers were 'laid back' - you should probably get off the internet and have your blood pressure checked.
I'll go home and quote you the exact text of the rock climbing book I'm reading that started with an introduction about the benefits of Rock Climbing that made mention of the TYPES OF PEOPLE (OMG - YES! More Stereotypes) that enjoy rock climbing and their adventurous spirit and laid back attitudes.
Of course, if that's NOT the case, and rock climbers tend to be jackasses; well hey, you could have just said that. After all, this is a forum for beginners. You shouldn't take misconceptions so personally.
Ironically though, your angry post, coupled with the Grammar Nazi above are doing a great job of making your point.
Cheers
(This post was edited by RobDude on Feb 18, 2009, 7:48 PM)
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RobDude
Feb 18, 2009, 7:42 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: RobDude wrote: Wow man, I'm totally impressed with your pedantic reply. I'm looking for an administrative assistant, and I think you've shown yourself well qualified to take care of these very trivial tasks. Starting wage is $9.00 an hour. No, but seriously, for a supposed group of laid back rock climbers, this forum sure has a lot of jackasses. There - now that we've had a retarded e-pissing match, let's move on, shall we? Lets not move on. There is nothing to move on from. There was one good answer and no more need be said. Except you accused "us" of being laid back. How dare you bring your stereotypes and expect "us" to follow? I've interacted with some of the highest quality a$$holes here, and damn happy about it.
One last thing - I found interesting....
http://www.cascadegear.com/blogs/climbing/a-note-to-newbie-rock-climbers
"Climbers are generally a laid-back group"
http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/General/The_Psychophysiology_of_a_Rock_Climber_632.html
They are found to be more laid back, yet have a tendency to under estimate risk due to there sensation seeking state of mind.
http://presidentgeorgebush.blogspot.com/2004/09/ban-rock-climbing-and-free-ice-cream.html
see, the thing about climbers is that we are laid back, and most of us are pretty liberal.
http://www.squidoo.com/chrissharma
Yet if you talk to this rock climbing phenom he is about as laid back and humble as they come.
You, sir, suck. *I* am not stereotyping you. ROCK CLIMBERS are STEREOTYPING themselves. Forgive me for being the n0ob on the Beginners forum who trusts what he reads on sites like ROCKCLIMBING.COM.
Jackass.
Go cry some more.
(This post was edited by RobDude on Feb 18, 2009, 7:45 PM)
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Factor2
Feb 18, 2009, 8:00 PM
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what exactly are you ranting about dude? you made a statement, you were proven wrong, and now you're going off on a completely different tangent, and it no longer makes any sense
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 18, 2009, 8:08 PM
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RobDude wrote: I'm suggesting we move on from 7th grade writing class, that's all. Last I checked, this forum was about Rock Climbing. If you want to go out of your way to point out trivial grammatical mistakes, typos, or whatever else floats your boat; feel free. But you should certainly expect people to be throughly unimpressed and argumentative after it. Beyond that, wtf are you talking about? You sound like an angry 7th grader (whoa! Wait a minute, now it's starting to make sense....). I'm sorry if your panties are in a wad because I, *gasp*, 'stereotyped' you. I said rock climbers were laid back! OH NOES! I'M JUDGING YOU!!!! WAAAAA! Serious man, grow up. I'm glad you enjoy interacting with a$$holes - but this is a 'Beginners' forum about Rock Climbing. If you think it's a good idea to jump on posters here for asinine grammatical mistakes - you're an a$$hole. And if you are going to get so upset over a newbie on a 'Beginners' forum on a public rock climbing website saying that he was under the impression that rock climbers were 'laid back' - you should probably get off the internet and have your blood pressure checked. I'll go home and quote you the exact text of the rock climbing book I'm reading that started with an introduction about the benefits of Rock Climbing that made mention of the TYPES OF PEOPLE (OMG - YES! More Stereotypes) that enjoy rock climbing and their adventurous spirit and laid back attitudes. Of course, if that's NOT the case, and rock climbers tend to be jackasses; well hey, you could have just said that. After all, this is a forum for beginners. You shouldn't take misconceptions so personally. Ironically though, your angry post, coupled with the Grammar Nazi above are doing a great job of making your point. Cheers
Lighten up Fransis.
BTW, welcome to RC.com
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