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cracklover
Mar 26, 2009, 8:12 PM
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Thanks for the compliment, Bill.
billcoe_ wrote: Doesn't Larry Hamilton still pretty much use them exclusively in Red Rocks to this day? He's FAing 2000 foot buttresses on new territory ground up. Works for him still.
I think you're confusing names. You mean Larry DeAngelo. Larry Hamilton did FAs in RR back in the day with Joe Herbst, but now lives in NH. And while I think you're right that Larry D (aka Scary Larry) mostly climbs on passive gear, I don't know if it's mostly hexes - he uses all kind of interesting gear, like T Nuts and such.
And JT512 - not all those saying hexes have their place on a modern rack are 5.8-or-under climbers. I've onsighted 5.11 trad, and I feel that for me, hexes play a key role on my rack. Not always, but often enough that I'd be very sorry not to have them available.
And one other thing - I'm tired of this worn out argument that hexes are no good because they're not as versatile as cams. No, they're not as versatile as cams, but what is? For example, I rarely carry tricams these days. So what? In some places, and on some climbs, tricams are a very key part of my rack. Few people who use them in Gunks horizontals or in granite solution pockets would argue that they're "historical" or "outmoded".
GO
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tomtom
Mar 26, 2009, 8:38 PM
Post #102 of 141
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jt512 wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands? So you haven't carried a hex in 20 years yet still assert there is no real difference between brands. Mighty omniscient of you. In reality, hexes are only outdated for closed minds and sport climbers. And people who trad climb harder than 5.8.
Speak for yourself. Others disagree.
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jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 9:09 PM
Post #103 of 141
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tomtom wrote: jt512 wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands? So you haven't carried a hex in 20 years yet still assert there is no real difference between brands. Mighty omniscient of you. In reality, hexes are only outdated for closed minds and sport climbers. And people who trad climb harder than 5.8. Speak for yourself. Others disagree.
Yeah, Roy, n00bs, and weakmos.
Jay
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jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 9:12 PM
Post #104 of 141
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cracklover wrote: And JT512 - not all those saying hexes have their place on a modern rack are 5.8-or-under climbers. I've onsighted 5.11 trad, and I feel that for me, hexes play a key role on my rack. Not always, but often enough that I'd be very sorry not to have them available.
What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? I don't know a single climber, personally, who uses hexes.
Jay
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petsfed
Mar 26, 2009, 9:39 PM
Post #105 of 141
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: ...and are better at teaching than cams. Bullshit. No matter how many times you repeat this unsupported and unsupportable statement, it will still be silly. Your denial is amusing. Using hexes and tricams teach climbers to look at cracks more effectively; really no debating that point. Acquiring an eye for tricky placements is a learned talent. And it certainly comes in handy once you get away from nice cam-friendly crack areas. It's silly how you and Angry attempt to deride others just because they want to be smarter climbers.
God, are we still having this stupid fucking discussion?
I haven't placed a hex in years. As soon as I bought enough cams, I simply stopped using hexes. The only one I consistently carry is the #9, because it works well as a hammer for the second, and as a backup rappel device if necessary. Plus, it could work as protection in a pinch.
Finding bomber hex placements is easy: just look for a placement that would take a really big nut.
If you're not competent with nuts, then absolutely, you're an incomplete climber.
Angry is quite skilled with stoppers. Jay, I presume you are as well.
But since the larger hexes (aka the useful sizes) are not on stiff enough cables that you can quickly and easily place them one handed, the inconvenience of using them far outweighs the utility of them. And the weight really isn't a good argument either. I'm more than willing to carry an extra 5 pounds if it means I can get just as much pro in half the time.
Tricams are the same way. I've never encountered a route (other than Otto's Route in Colorado National Monument, where you are in fact using holes drilled in the rock as protection, although I'd imagine that a Orange or Purple Alien would fit the bill just as well, considering it was only a blue Tricam) where you simply could not protect the route if you lacked hexes or tricams. Where other see a perfect pink tricam placement, I see my investment in zeroes justified, and the zeroes, per piece, are lighter!
I own a #7 tricam. I've placed it on lead precisely once. I set it good and hard, slung it long, then the rope shifted, it popped and sailed down the rope thirty feet to my belayer. Fuckin' useless.
Hexes have their use, if you can get them cheap. But when you're paying full price (or at least more than pro-deal prices) for your gear, the price of hexes is much MUCH better spent on a cam. Hexes are something you ask your parents to get you for Christmas. Even when you're 45. Since you're going to phase them out of use fairly quickly anyway, there's not a single reason to pay even 25% off a set of hexes. They just aren't gonna see that much use.
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tomtom
Mar 26, 2009, 9:48 PM
Post #106 of 141
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jt512 wrote: What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on?
Crack climbs. (Is this a trick question?)
I've yet to find them useful on sport climbs.
(This post was edited by tomtom on Mar 26, 2009, 9:49 PM)
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petsfed
Mar 26, 2009, 9:57 PM
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tomtom wrote: jt512 wrote: What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? Crack climbs. (Is this a trick question?) I've yet to find them useful on sport climbs.
Wow. Must be nice living in a place that doesn't have too many parallel sided cracks. Whoo, must be great.
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cracklover
Mar 26, 2009, 9:57 PM
Post #108 of 141
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jt512 wrote: tomtom wrote: jt512 wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands? So you haven't carried a hex in 20 years yet still assert there is no real difference between brands. Mighty omniscient of you. In reality, hexes are only outdated for closed minds and sport climbers. And people who trad climb harder than 5.8. Speak for yourself. Others disagree. Yeah, Roy, n00bs, and weakmos. Jay
I'm certainly not Roy, so am I a weakmo or a noob IYNSHO?
GO
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jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 10:03 PM
Post #109 of 141
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tomtom wrote: jt512 wrote: What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? Crack climbs. (Is this a trick question?)
No, but it's a stupid answer, and you are not cracklover.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 26, 2009, 10:04 PM)
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pornstarr
Mar 26, 2009, 10:04 PM
Post #110 of 141
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jt512 wrote: What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? I don't know a single climber, personally, who uses hexes. Jay
are they all tools as well?
hexes have their place and just because you choose not to use them does not change that.
(This post was edited by pornstarr on Mar 26, 2009, 10:06 PM)
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cracklover
Mar 26, 2009, 10:04 PM
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: And JT512 - not all those saying hexes have their place on a modern rack are 5.8-or-under climbers. I've onsighted 5.11 trad, and I feel that for me, hexes play a key role on my rack. Not always, but often enough that I'd be very sorry not to have them available. What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? I don't know a single climber, personally, who uses hexes. Jay
Mostly multipitch, with highly featured cracks, up to around mid 5.10. On short stuff I'll sometime bring them, if the crack looks like it warrants them. On stuff harder than low to mid 10, I find far fewer placements that call for them, so they typically stay on the ground.
GO
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jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 10:07 PM
Post #112 of 141
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pornstarr wrote: jt512 wrote: What kinds of routes are you placing hexes on? I don't know a single climber, personally, who uses hexes. Jay are they all tools as well? hexes have there place and just because you choose not to use them does not change that.
Yeah, I know they have their place, fucktard. On the racks of first year climbers and alpinists.
Jay
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kane_schutzman
Mar 26, 2009, 10:39 PM
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Bought em, and Sold em.
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rschap
Mar 26, 2009, 11:32 PM
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I’m still wondering how having the ends cut diagonal on BD hexes makes them less useful.
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k.l.k
Mar 26, 2009, 11:37 PM
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rschap wrote: I’m still wondering how having the ends cut diagonal on BD hexes makes them less useful.
I'm wondering how this thread got to five pages.
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Adk
Mar 27, 2009, 12:10 AM
Post #116 of 141
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I can't believe I read it all....
Ok, ok I do own hexes but I don't lead 5.9s often with them.
Would I replace my 8 hexes with two cams? Probably.
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vegastradguy
Mar 27, 2009, 1:38 AM
Post #117 of 141
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cracklover wrote: I think you're confusing names. You mean Larry DeAngelo. Larry Hamilton did FAs in RR back in the day with Joe Herbst, but now lives in NH. And while I think you're right that Larry D (aka Scary Larry) mostly climbs on passive gear, I don't know if it's mostly hexes - he uses all kind of interesting gear, like T Nuts and such.
larry's rack usually consists of a few stoppers, a full set of dolt nuts, two titons, three or so hexes (unless he's really goin for a passive day), and the cams of whoever he's climbing with.
over my years as his partner, 95% of our routes were done on my rack (cams) with the occasional dolt nut or titon placement for fun. hexes made occasional appearances, but only because we had them, might as well throw them in a crack occasionally.
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tarsier
Mar 27, 2009, 2:19 AM
Post #118 of 141
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Wiggins, Supercrack, 1976. 300ft of parallel.
I prefer the kind that aren't slung with wire cable.
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petsfed
Mar 27, 2009, 2:48 AM
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tarsier wrote: Wiggins, Supercrack, 1976. 300ft of parallel. I prefer the kind that aren't slung with wire cable.
And basically X-rated.
I understand that on the first ascent of Generic Crack (which went to the rim and used almost exclusively hexes), if the leader fell for any distance on the second pitch, it was understood that the all-hex belay would fail, as well as all of the hexes used as lead protection.
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bill413
Mar 27, 2009, 3:54 AM
Post #120 of 141
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petsfed wrote: As soon as I bought enough cams, I simply stopped using hexes. The only one I consistently carry is the #9, because it works well as a hammer for the second, and as a backup rappel device if necessary. Plus, it could work as protection in a pinch.
I see....you carry it because it's useless.
petsfed wrote: But since the larger hexes (aka the useful sizes) are not on stiff enough cables that you can quickly and easily place them one handed, the inconvenience of using them far outweighs the utility of them.
petsfed wrote: Tricams are the same way. I've never encountered a route (other than Otto's Route in Colorado National Monument, where you are in fact using holes drilled in the rock as protection, although I'd imagine that a Orange or Purple Alien would fit the bill just as well, considering it was only a blue Tricam) where you simply could not protect the route if you lacked hexes or tricams. Where other see a perfect pink tricam placement, I see my investment in zeroes justified, and the zeroes, per piece, are lighter!
petsfed wrote: I own a #7 tricam. I've placed it on lead precisely once. I set it good and hard, slung it long, then the rope shifted, it popped and sailed down the rope thirty feet to my belayer. Fuckin' useless.
So, I think you're saying:
"[I hate them. I placed it once (so I'm an expert) and it didn't work. So it's useless.]"
Yeah, I tried a 5.14 once. I couldn't do it...so no one else can.
I tried to use a dent puller to fix a dinged up car (once!). It didn't come out smooth. Dent pullers are useless.
I'm sorry. I think hexes have their uses. Camlocks, however.....
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rschap
Mar 27, 2009, 4:45 AM
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k.l.k wrote: I'm wondering how this thread got to five pages.
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billcoe_
Mar 27, 2009, 3:43 PM
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angry wrote: Also Bill, stop taking falls on loose blocks. Active or passive pieces multiply the forces unless it's in a pure T-shaped placement (you still have the weight of the falling climber though). It's a fallacy to place bad gear under the delusion that it will slow you down. You end up a little more fatigued, fall just as far, and send a dangerous block toward your belayer. Buck up and climb past it and stop pretending it's safe.
LOL, oh, no one falls on this shit and lives Angry. I think that the forces on a cam are significantly bigger than on a nut or a hex. However, I agree with Cracklover there. Like the Trango (Lowe) Tricams. I don't have a use for them at all, (generally) then I go someplace where local people are carrying them, and you find that the crux of the route you want to try takes a perfect one, it would be stupid to continue to insist they have no value. Limited, but very nice when you do need them.
This is not the route I was thinking of, we are going to FA that this weekend, this was last Saturday same area further down where the cliff is not so tall.
So to answer the OP, the rockcentric from WC are good as are the Metolius, but the largest sizes are smaller than the BD 11. (I only know that is true for the WC, I didn't look up the Metolius) Plus, the smaller sizes of hexes have even more limited utility than the larger, say 2" and up, sizes.
Angry, around here, people rack up different sized shovels. See the big one in the lower pic that has a sling on the handle for racking? There are smaller sizes that get carried more frequently on the harder routes as no one but a Noob carries a big shovel for a hard route...we all can't be in Yosemite and places like that where the cracks are long, parallel and dry.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Mar 27, 2009, 3:44 PM)
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cracklover
Mar 27, 2009, 4:29 PM
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Another reason is to save weight.
For example, on Epinephrine, I led all the chimneys. As I climbed, I slid a #3 or #4 (whichever was the right size at the time) cam up the back of the crack, and left hexes in good placements every 15 or 20 feet. 200 foot pitches. Having to bring five to ten additional large cams up there would be ridiculous when the same number of large hexes, at a fraction of the weight and cluster-fuckage, did the job perfectly.
GO
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petsfed
Mar 27, 2009, 4:58 PM
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bill413 wrote: petsfed wrote: As soon as I bought enough cams, I simply stopped using hexes. The only one I consistently carry is the #9, because it works well as a hammer for the second, and as a backup rappel device if necessary. Plus, it could work as protection in a pinch. They're useless. But I still carry one, it could work. I see....you carry it because it's useless.
The bit about using it as protection in a pinch kind of reveals my intent. Whoever's seconding always has the hex, and it is carried predominantly because it is a great hammer. If you need to pound on the nut tool, it is much MUCH more pleasant to pound with the hex than with the heel of the hand. Its not like I carry carabiners simply because I could wedge them in a crack in a pinch. Their other uses far outweigh that minor feature.
In reply to: petsfed wrote: But since the larger hexes (aka the useful sizes) are not on stiff enough cables that you can quickly and easily place them one handed, the inconvenience of using them far outweighs the utility of them. Well....I routinely carry a couple of smaller ones...When I'm placing hexes, it's not a "slap & go" like you seem to want. I find that a good placement may (MAY) require positioning the hex to best advantage, not just whipping it in on the end of a wire cable.
Again, you clearly missed my intent. It takes the same amount of time to place a good nut as a good hex. But generally, placing a good hex requires two hands. A good nut only one. For the climbs I do, that renders good hex placements more or less impossible.
In reply to: petsfed wrote: Tricams are the same way. I've never encountered a route (other than Otto's Route in Colorado National Monument, where you are in fact using holes drilled in the rock as protection, although I'd imagine that a Orange or Purple Alien would fit the bill just as well, considering it was only a blue Tricam) where you simply could not protect the route if you lacked hexes or tricams. Where other see a perfect pink tricam placement, I see my investment in zeroes justified, and the zeroes, per piece, are lighter! Interesting....many people acknowledge that tricams are an essential type of pro for the Gunks. Of course, I've never climbed "Otto's Route." But, I don't think I'd begrudge someone saying it won't take tricams (or some other specific gear). I've climbed routes that a #0 alien (or whatever) would be useless on...but I wouldn't say that an alien is totally useless.
First, Otto's Route has manufactured placements (actually from pipes driven into the rock in the early 20th century to facilitate the first ascent of Independence Rock, a desert tower) that take tricams very well. But I'm not certain that the route is unprotectable without tricams.
Second, it is a question of utility vs. convenience that defines "useless". A point which I've repeated six or eight times in this thread. If I have to spend more time than I would for a nut, or I need two hands to place it, then a piece of gear is more inconvenient to place than the piece is useful to me. That's what defines uselessness.
In reply to: petsfed wrote: I own a #7 tricam. I've placed it on lead precisely once. I set it good and hard, slung it long, then the rope shifted, it popped and sailed down the rope thirty feet to my belayer. Fuckin' useless. So, I think you're saying: "[I hate them. I placed it once (so I'm an expert) and it didn't work. So it's useless.]" Yeah, I tried a 5.14 once. I couldn't do it...so no one else can. I tried to use a dent puller to fix a dinged up car (once!). It didn't come out smooth. Dent pullers are useless. I'm sorry. I think hexes have their uses. Camlocks, however.....
More like, the one I OWN (that is, the one I elected to spend my own money on, purchased because I didn't want to pay for a cam of equivalent size, rather than one's I've used from others racks) proved to be very unstable in the same placement. I don't know how many consistent #7 tricam cracks you've tried, but accidentally touching the gear with your foot is a very real issue. And my frustration with the piece was that it wasn't a hard kick that dislodged it. I lightly brushed the damned thing. And boom, it popped out, and suddenly I was looking at a ground fall. On a WELL PLACED PIECE. Issues like that with the larger tricams led Craig Luebben to invent the Big Bro.
Its not like I'd never placed tricams before, or that I'd never placed that piece even in an anchor. I've used the red and pink, albeit begrudgingly, and they provided good placements. I've used the blue, it provided a good placement. But the big one was way more unstable than equivalently sized cams, harder to place, and really was a waste of money on my part. But the difficulty of placing each one (again, that two hands issue) and the difficulty of cleaning them, especially given that I have cams that work well in the exact same placements and are lighter, means that tricams aren't just inconvenient to use, they are pointless to use.
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tomtom
Mar 27, 2009, 8:27 PM
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petsfed wrote: But generally, placing a good hex requires two hands.
Really? I must be doing something wrong.
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