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bradbaker
Nov 27, 2002, 8:35 PM
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>How many 5.6-5.8 climbs have you been up
>and found at least 3 cams stuck in the >wall?
Zero. And I've climbed a lot of routes in
a lot of different places.
>I have yet to climb a single pitch easier
>than 5.8 and NOT see a lost cam!
Seriously? Sounds like a vast exaggeration to me. If true, I would love to climb where you climb. Booty city.
>In the long run, I may decrease my hex >usage in favor of cams ...
Yes. If you keep climbing, you most likely will feel the pull of the Dark Side. I'm sure they exist, but I haven't run into a single experienced climber that prefers hexes over cams for the majority of placements. I still carry hexes on occassion. Usually when I'm going super light and don't want to bring multiple cams covering the same range.
>Not to mention having 3 extra large hexes >as bail pieces.
This is where hexes excel. Cheap gear that I don't use enough to care about leaving behind. Of course, I usually make that decision when racking up, not when bailing. Nuts and slings have served me well for bail gear since leaving the hexes behind.
[ This Message was edited by: bradbaker on 2002-11-27 12:59 ]
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 8:55 PM
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Many people say that you can only place cams on hard trad climbs or else you are wasting your time, pumping out, fiddling with nuts/hexes - that is BULLSH!T.
Unless the climb is single pitch, the same difficulty the whole way and overhanging - nuts and hexes will be useful. You have a good stance and a good bottleneck above your head - BAM hex/stopper. You get to a belay - BAM hex/stopper. Crux - BAM cam. (with batman like sounds)
If you climb like this, you can climb at your limit AND carry less weight in gear. On my hardest trad climbs I carry passive gear and cams.
Also, that "you dont climb hard enough if..." is a bunch of bullsh!t. Is there anyone who climbs harder than you? What do they carry? Not just your friends but everyone who climbs harder than you - what do they carry?
Also, jt, I hate to be nosey but I noticed that your hardest climbs are bolted climbs and not many under your hardest were trad climbs. It doesn't sound like you are climbing very hard at trad yourself. If you have a 'sport climber' frame of mind, it would explain why you think that cams are the only way to go. Anyway, you posted it here so don't be shy if people notice it.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 10:26 PM
Post #53 of 100
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Quote:Many people say that you can only place cams on hard trad climbs or else you are wasting your time, pumping out, fiddling with nuts/hexes - that is BULLSH!T.
Actually, we've (well, me, at least) have just said that about hexes, not nuts. Of course you'd have to be able to read and comprehend the English language to get that.
Quote:
Unless the climb is single pitch, the same difficulty the whole way and overhanging - nuts and hexes will be useful. You have a good stance and a good bottleneck above your head - BAM hex/stopper.
Who says you have a good stance? I was talking about hard climbs, where the placements are strenuous. And the problem with hexes is you can't "BAM" place them. You need to finesse them into place.
Quote:
If you climb like this, you can climb at your limit AND carry less weight in gear. On my hardest trad climbs I carry passive gear and cams.
So does everybody. It's just hexes that they don't carry.
Quote:
Also, that "you dont climb hard enough if..." is a bunch of bullsh!t. Is there anyone who climbs harder than you?
Lots of people.
Quote:
What do they carry? Not just your friends but everyone who climbs harder than you - what do they carry?
I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes.
Quote:
Also, jt, I hate to be nosey but I noticed that your hardest climbs are bolted climbs and not many under your hardest were trad climbs. It doesn't sound like you are climbing very hard at trad yourself.
That's true. I mostly sport climb these days (that wasn't always the case, BTW), and I lead trad only to the mid-10s, but the absolute numbers aren't all that relevant. It's how close to your personal limit you're climbing. When you're at your limit, whether it's 5.8 or 5.12, you're going to be wishing you had something besides a hex to place.
-Jay
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 11:05 PM
Post #54 of 100
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thank you for responding directly to me. Your answers explain a lot.
I can read. I was just too lazy to go through all the bull sh!t to find out exactly every word that had been discussed. The title of the forum IS "Placing more cams and less nuts". I also said "nuts/hexes". I think you need to calm down a little. Although it is quite amusing to me.
I carry hexes on my hardest climbs. I use them to back up the anchor and it makes a lot more sense than carrying 3, 4 or more sets of cams - weight wise. I also place them at stances - it might not be a hands free stance but it still might be a rest stance and I will want the cams later. Even hard climbs usually have rest stances or sections that are easier than the crux. It sure is nice to end up at a belay with just a few nuts and hexes to back it up AND you didn't climb with any excess gear on the climb.
Another thing said explains a whole lot. "I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes." You are talking about relatively short climbs (2-3 pitch) with short approaches - especially in Josh. I have only climbed in Joshua Tree so correct me if I am wrong on the others. Again I relate this to the general sport climber mentality - 'what is the easiest way to get some climbing in'. If it is a hard overhanging crack right off the ground sure I might carry all cams. What about alpine stuff? What about LONG hard climbs? What about LOOONG approaches? or are those type of climbs not hard? What about not-so-hard climbs - or are you too elite to consider those ones?
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 11:15 PM
Post #55 of 100
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Quote:
"Who the hell is telling beginners not to use cams in the first place, much less because they can walk if not correctly placed? "
Um, that's pretty standard both on this site and from most experienced trad leaders i know. I've read more than one post that beginners should stick to passive pro, and gradually work into active. Of course, walking is only one reason. The other is being able to read the crack for the right cam, overcamming, undercamming, weight, cost, etc. Trad leading is hard enough when you begin without having to worry about all that.
As far as cams stuck in the wall, come out to Red Rocks sometime, its where I climb. I saw 4 buried cams on Froglands when I climbed it this summer, 3 on Tunnelvision (+ 1 lost nut), 3 out at Moderate Mecca on various climbs, and 1 on Crimson Chrysalis. I keep meaning to build myself a 'cam remover', but I havent gotten around to it yet. You're right, it is Booty City here.
Now, in maintaining my personal motto: "thou shalt not get involved in petty arguments" I am bailing from this forum. It's starting to get stupid. Everyones got their preference in gear. I carry hexes, stoppers, & cams. JT carries quickdraws and used to carry cams. Who cares either way? I guess if someones really wrong here, they'll find themselves in a really crappy situation one day, and somehow I doubt they'll think back to this discussion and go "Wow, I really wish I had listened to so and so on Rock Climbing.com"
Toodles, kids. Have fun.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 11:23 PM
Post #56 of 100
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Quote:The title of the forum IS "Placing more cams and less nuts". I also said "nuts/hexes". I think you need to calm down a little. Although it is quite amusing to me.
First of all, it's a "thread" or a "topic," not a "forum." Secondly, if you had bothered to read through the thread, you'd have seen that it was only hexes that people were saying are less useful than cams, not nuts. Indeed, you were referring "hexes/nuts," not just nuts.
Quote:
I carry hexes on my hardest climbs.
And your hardest climbs are how hard? And have you noticed that hardly anyone else carries them? Ever wonder why?
Quote:
I use them to back up the anchor and it makes a lot more sense than carrying 3, 4 or more sets of cams - weight wise.
What the hell do you mean "back up the anchor"? Since when do anchors need backing up? And I've never carried three sets of cams in my life (no, I've never climbed desert splitters).
Quote:
Another thing said explains a whole lot. "I can't really speak for everybody, f---wit, but I can speak for the majority of hard trad climbers at Josh, Tahquitz and Suicide, and they don't carry hexes." You are talking about relatively short climbs (2-3 pitch) with short approaches - especially in Josh. I have only climbed in Joshua Tree so correct me if I am wrong on the others.
No, you're absolutely correct. There are no long routes at Tahquitz and the approach is a piece of cake.
Quote:
What about LONG hard climbs? What about LOOONG approaches?
The length of the climb and the approach are irrelevant if the route is hard -- very few climbers carry hexes or attempt to place them on hard routes.
-Jay
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mountainmonkey
Nov 27, 2002, 11:57 PM
Post #57 of 100
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Thanks for explaining the forum thing. Aparantly you understood what I was trying to convey and just wanted to add to more of the bullsh!t on this website
On my hardest climbs I have seen (actually heard - cowbells) others who also carry hexes. Of course these are not usually 1 pitch climbs but longer climbs with long approaches that require mutiples of hand sized pieces.
Anchors that aren't good bolts need to be backed up: fixed nut and fixed pin belay/rap anchors.
Some climbs require multiple handsized pieces - not just desert splitters.
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tradklime
Nov 28, 2002, 12:07 AM
Post #58 of 100
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I find the thought of not using nuts ridiculous. A rack of only Cams I personally usually climb with a double set of nuts and a double set of cams and use them equally.
A lot of you know where I stand on the Hex vs. Cam debate . How does it always come back to this? I guess the trad community is really polarized on this issue. However, one point was made earlier, most climbers who are pushing the ratings do not regularly climb with Hexes. There is probably a reason.
I would love to see someone climb the second pitch of Country Club Crack in Boulder Canyon with hexes (A difficult climb for us mortals). I know it was done at some point but those quys were the definition of hard men.
Bottom line is there will always be a place in climbing for passive pro, but choose your own weapons.
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topher
Nov 28, 2002, 12:57 AM
Post #59 of 100
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if you are not placing passive pro you missing out on better placments! a cam is easie to place but if a nut fits better i want the safest thing. that and if i have to bail i would rather leave a few nuts then a few hundered bucks in cams!
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krillen
Nov 29, 2002, 2:03 AM
Post #60 of 100
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JT: ever think that maybe you only notice what you use?
Personally I hear "cowbells" and hexes all over the place. hard climbs, easy climbs, limestone, sandstone, granite, etc.
Also I carry them up 10+ trad, and they seem to work fine for me?
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jt512
Nov 29, 2002, 2:46 AM
Post #61 of 100
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Quote:There are lot so places you can put a hex that a cam won't work...
There are? You can put a hex in a parallel or downwardly constricting crack which doesn't flare outwardly. You can put a cam in those placements plus moderately downwardly and outwardly flared cracks. Plus, each hex fits exactly three sizes of placements whereas each cam fits an infinite number of placements throughout its useful range. So a set of cams will give you more placement options than a set of hexes covering the same size range.
Quote:
By definition a wider variety of gear will have more options for placement then more numbers of the same piece.
Wrong. A set of cams gives you more placement options than a set of hexes. This statment is true regardless of how many sets of cams you are carrying.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-28 22:43 ]
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brutusofwyde
Dec 1, 2002, 5:53 AM
Post #62 of 100
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Personally I quit using hexes twenty years ago, and never looked back. Stoppers have their place. My rack these days varies depending on the climbing area, but generally goes like this:
Long free climbs near my limit: 1 set Friends or titanium cams, 1 set Camalots, 1-2 sets stoppers or similar.
Long routes in the backcountry not near my limit: 1 set cams, some assorted Lowe Tricams, 1 set stoppers.
Cragging: Cams and stoppers.
The cams vs hexes debate has been raging since Jardine started establishing cutting edge climbs using his toys. But those that attempted to repeat his climbs using hexes quickly became converts to the religion of SLCD.
I would never recommend to a beginner to buy a set of hexes. Waste of money, in my opinion.
Brutus
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nimo
Dec 1, 2002, 7:33 AM
Post #63 of 100
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I just could not resist a little comment on all this. I love hexes and cams both for different reasons and different locations. I have taught quite a few people to lead trad and prefer to start them out on passive gear. The reason for this is first cost, one can get a decent rack of nuts, hexes, and tricams, more pieces for less $. The second main reason is learning to take care in ones placements and learn to think of the direction a piece will be loaded if one falls. There are a few places I climb that hexes are king, it is easy to find great hex placements and hard to find good cam placements. Other places I climb cams rule. When I was younger and had no $ for cams I was unwilling to climb many routs because I needed cams to effectively protect them i.e. parallel cracks. However to date I have ample supplies of both hexes and cams. There are some climbs I will leave my hexes on the ground because the route is hard to protect with them and easy with cams and vise versa others I leave the cams on the ground. Also, there are several routes I know where a hex is bomber and a cam is vary sketch. When it warms up I will try and post a pic. I believe a lot has to do with the aria you climb at and your budget. At the end of the day they all have a place on my rack.
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klimberbob
Dec 14, 2002, 12:30 AM
Post #64 of 100
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i always go passive over a cam if given the option...
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vulgarian
Dec 17, 2002, 6:36 AM
Post #65 of 100
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I love cams - but there is nothing sweeter and more reassuring to me than those perfect nut placements.
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holdplease2
Jan 4, 2003, 6:33 AM
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Here is a post I scavaged from the "accidents" forum. Speaks for itself.
Please see the quote below on your topic. I scavanged it from the accidents section
Posted: 2001-09-26 15:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw a leader hit the ground from about 40' up, after he fell and ripped 2 pieces of gear. It was ~ 14 years ago at the Gunks. The route can be protected well using small wired nuts, but he was relying instead on small cams placed in shallow pockets on either side of the crack. Both of these cams pulled out easily under a short fall, and the next piece down wasn't high enough to keep him from decking. He hit the ground on his feet & then bounced backwards & landed on his head on a rock (no helmet). My partner & I were standing right next to where he hit, and we helped with first aid & immobilization until a litter and more people arrived. I heard later that he survived and was recovering from a serious head injury. There are some important points to be reinforced by this unfortunate accident:
1)Don't pick a climb that's near the limit of your leading ability, when it's your first day of climbing that season. Take the time to warm up & get your leading head together on some easier routes.
2)Use the best protection that's available to you; ie don't pass up a perfect nut placement in favor of a questionable cam.
3)When near the ground, always have enough gear in to keep you from hitting the ground if your top piece or 2 fails.
4)Wear a helmet
END QUOTE
Sorry, but I could not find the poster's information
The moral of the story is, know how to place ALL of your gear, know how to judge which PLACEMENT is better, not just which type of gear is your preferred or the most technologically advanced.
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billcoe_
Jan 4, 2003, 3:59 PM
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Plenty of opionions here. I agree with vegastradguy, petty arguements suck. As far as that goes, I was on Frogland not long ago, and some of those cams have been pulled out. Congrats if thats you Vegas.
Depends on the climb. All have their uses. I tend to not carry hexes unless the climb uses them. If the guidebook says "pro to 3"" and it looks to be long pitches, you can expect me to have some hexes on my rack. For SOME (note that word SOME) placements, nuts AND hexes are the best.
But it depends on the route, grade vis-a-vis my abilities that day, and even the climbing area as well.
Bill
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holdplease2
Jan 4, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Hey VEGAS TRADGUY!
Was one of those cams a green DMM? If it was, SEND IT TO ME! (Kidding) Thats what you get for posting your booty finds!
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 5, 2003, 5:02 AM
Post #69 of 100
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My first rack was roped stoppers and slung hexes. Needless to say I mostly stuck to runout 5.10 slab climbs because it was way safer then leading on hexes.
(josh, suicide and taquitz) At that time I was way jealous of people who had gone with tri cams.
As soon as Friends came out all my hexes became windchimes. (except for small wired hexes which I carried for years to use in water grooves. tossed those to eventually)
In the valley and tuolumne, stoppers work as good or better than cams.
the best of both worlds is to place a cam like a stopper.
If your argument is to save weight my answer would be to run it out until you get to a stopper placement. (stoppers are way lighter then hexs)
I don’t carry any stoppers larger then a #10 because for the same weight you can carry a alien of the same size.
As far as having gear to bail in an emergency, stoppers are cheaper then hexes and more secure to boot
As far as cams walking, pre walk them when you place them and/or put a long sling on them.
I always try to use stoppers for belays (especially on multi-pitch) (know how to build a multi-directional anchor with stoppers) if the stoppers aren’t totally bomber toss a cam in for back up.
The only way I would carry hexes is if I wanted to play old school. I.e. climb with hexes, roped stoppers, EB’s and a goldline rope
dan
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benkiessel
Jan 16, 2003, 6:02 PM
Post #70 of 100
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passive pro rocks! cams are a waste of money and weight to much when you can place a stopper or a hex just as solidly. don't get me wrong i have cams but i prefer a solid hex over a cam.
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grundleson
Jan 18, 2003, 11:43 PM
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When i first started climbing trad i could only afford nuts so thats what i learned with, i got really really creative in how i placed my gear. so now when i go climbing, i always try and place passive gear first. then go for the cams. just a personal thing for me i guess
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phugganut
Jan 19, 2003, 12:07 AM
Post #72 of 100
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Both are good, but w/passive pro there is no mechanical error. If you don't like hexes then don't use them but I don't think they're so bad. Tri-cams friggin rock!
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:07 PM
Post #73 of 100
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charlie53,
you are reducing your ability to make safe and strong anchors. limiting your personal knowledge will only cost you and your partners. always practice all form of protection. the better your personal knowledge the better climber you will be.
passive pro is equally as important as camming devices. if anyone tells you different they are idiots.
the more you know, the better you are.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 16, 2008, 10:46 PM
Post #74 of 100
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hexes and cams are both handy in my opinion and there isn't really an absolute that needs to be debated. It's simply a matter of preference; which tool is the right tool for the job. there's really no need to b!tch about it.
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nut_scratcher
Sep 16, 2008, 10:48 PM
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Amen.
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