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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 5:47 PM
Post #26 of 40
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patmay81 wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: mr8615 wrote: snip I do use a steel biner on my grigri though.I am about to buy a silent partner. I am wondering if 1 steal 'biner (to attach the SP to my harness) is essentially equal to 2 regular 'biners, in terms of redundancy? Is it safe to think of a steal 'biner in the same way we view the rope; redundant in and of itself? in theory 2 aluminum biners are better than one steel, the point being that friction against rock, rope and body can cause the lockers to unlock and potentially (1 in one thousand, hundred thousand, million odds???) come unclipped. The strength is not so much an issue as you can get aluminum biners rated up to 28 kn axial strength. The reason I use a steel w/ my grigri is to prevent any cross loading issues in which an aluminum biner would only hold around 10 kn, where as my steel holds 24+ cross loaded.
This was exactly what I was thinking. How to go about cramming to 'biners and the rope through my tie in points and still avoid cross loading, or loading the 'biner close to the gate as apposed to along the spine.
But you only use ONE steel 'biner correct?
I think I'm OK with using the one steel 'binder as an attachment to my harness. still debating a bit though.
Thanks patmay81.
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ptlong
Apr 23, 2009, 6:01 PM
Post #27 of 40
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With a grigri there is no room for two carabiners.
Whether or not one steel carabiner is "redundant in and of itself" is just semantics. A single steel carabiner is strong enough provided the gate isn't somehow opened up. Ever had a locker open up at your waist? I have. You rope solo, you can figure the odds for yourself.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 6:45 PM
Post #28 of 40
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ptlong, pmyche,
Thank you both. Good points which I am considering.
I don't disagree at all regarding "redundancy".
I'll try to find jhealy's set up and take a look too.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 8:04 PM
Post #29 of 40
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I found it. Any reason to be wary of this with a SP? Seams like a reasonable set up.
I am remaining open to all opinions and anecdotes until I can make a final decision. (maybe opinions and anecdotes are the wrongs words...)
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cclarke
Apr 23, 2009, 8:56 PM
Post #30 of 40
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Two potential issues with setting up the SP like the cinch in the picture.
First, the SP instructions (which are readily available on line and you really should read them carefully) state that you should not attach SP to the belay loop. The reason, I think, is that you don't want the SP to hit you in the face when you fall. When it's on the belay loop plus a biner, it's pretty long. Instead, clip the biners directly through the waist band and leg loops of your harness.
Second, using two lockers as SP instructions indicate will keep the lockers oriented correctly because it is much harder for two of them to move around compared to a single locker.
Maybe you can squeeze in the sling as well as two lockers and that might work but I haven't tried that. Also, I would think you could use one steel biner plus a regular aluminum locker for added security.
Finally, I think the SP instructions have an error in the picture of the two lockers in use. The hole where the lockers clip on the SP is not big enough to allow the screw sleeve to pass so the screw sleeve should not be above the SP as shown. When you fall, the SP will pull upwards and if the screw sleeves are in the way it could create bad leverage on the biner gate and the part of the SP where the biners are clipped. If the SP is over the screw sleeve or the screw sleeve is positioned in the rear, the SP can freely rise in a fall and you have no problems.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 24, 2009, 2:03 AM
Post #31 of 40
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More good points cclarke.
I did read the manual (well, I skimmed it; I don't have the SP yet...) and noticed the points you are referring to. Thank you for illustrating them more.
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altelis
Apr 24, 2009, 3:13 AM
Post #32 of 40
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cclarke wrote: Two potential issues with setting up the SP like the cinch in the picture....
Just to clarify- I'm pretty sure that the device in the picture is an eddy not a cinch....
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pindrvr75
Apr 24, 2009, 4:08 AM
Post #33 of 40
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Registered: Nov 3, 2005
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herbertpowell wrote: There is a potential to cross-load the powerpoint biner during a fall, which could generate enough force to break it. Is anyone using steel biners for the powerpoint or do you double up Al biners? Other solutions?
I use two locking ovals, opposite and opposed. If you have to use a cordelette anchor, make sure that the knot is as close as possible to the biners so that they stay oriented along the spine. Just my 2c
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herbertpowell
Apr 24, 2009, 11:03 PM
Post #34 of 40
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Good discussion. I think the double Al biners are a better solution now, especially after the weight comment. I checked the weight on simple steel lockers, and they are heavy, easily 3 times the weight of heavy Al lockers.
As for the cordelettes, I got into the habit for alpine, where it is advantageous to have some 7mm cord you can chop up for rap anchors / v-threads, etc. Is there a reason why these are not preferred in aid climbing?
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le_bruce
Apr 25, 2009, 12:33 AM
Post #35 of 40
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Registered: Oct 29, 2004
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Hey folks, just three ideas to throw into the mix:
If you're aim is to aid more than free, and crossloading is a possibility that spooks you, you might look into the Solo Aid that pmyche mentions. No 'biner at the harness, instead you tie in with thick, uncrossloadable cord. Crank down a burly double fisherman at the bottom of the climb, don't untie until days later when you top out = safe. The Solo Aid is not the ticket if free climbing is your goal.
Always worth mentioning in any thread like this one: tie backup knots as if your life depends on it.  The backup knot can proxy for a redundant carabiner on your Grigri, in that it's the only thing that's going to catch you if your biner blows.
Nothing can proxy for keeping your awareness in the on position up there, b/c you don't have a partner to check your systems. Stay sharp - fear helps!
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yetanotherdave
Apr 25, 2009, 4:08 PM
Post #36 of 40
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Registered: Mar 19, 2005
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I use 2 big pear biners (petzl williams) on my SP, and that works well. I don't think using 1 biner woould keep the plates lined up properly.
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scottydo
Apr 26, 2009, 2:53 PM
Post #37 of 40
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some great feedback on this thread. especially on the SP.
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moose_droppings
Apr 26, 2009, 4:43 PM
Post #38 of 40
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herbertpowell wrote: Good discussion. I think the double Al biners are a better solution now, especially after the weight comment. I checked the weight on simple steel lockers, and they are heavy, easily 3 times the weight of heavy Al lockers.
I've never seen the connection of aid climbing and going light. But then my routes are only 3 or 4 pitch routes.
I do hump my gear a couple miles to some of my routes, but the extra grams haven't been a concern there yet either.
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lambone
Apr 26, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #39 of 40
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Registered: May 1, 2003
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Here is what I use:
Un Modified Gri-Gri
Knong steel biner with the double auto-lock thing. rated to 58kn. I is a real pain in the ass to open.
two regular biners on the powerpoint, one is locker.
I think having a steel biner on the powerpoint is excessive.
You would need two, one for top anchor nd one for bottom anchor, and the weight of three steel lockers is about 7 regular lockers.
bottom line, don't factor2 on the anchor.
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wallrat
May 13, 2009, 6:28 AM
Post #40 of 40
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Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 155
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A buddy of mine had a cross load situation on a solo, and it broke his tie in biner. Lucky for him he had just tied in a backup knot. I don't recall if he was using a GriGri or not. Point is be redundant. I wouldn't trust only one of anything but the rope. Even then I clip my haul into a 1" runner looped into the back of my harness, then I 'might' just take a full rope factor 2 fall if the lead line broke. Silly, I know, but it's a small comfort to that voice in my head saying I'm gonna die. I have always just tied in with double biners and figure eight knots, throwing out 25-30 feet at a time, and tying in short if I get gripped. With practice you can do them one handed, and it's pretty fast.
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