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no_email_entered
Apr 28, 2009, 3:11 PM
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nhgill wrote: as far as "how long" should you mock lead? I would say a rope length is a good max. Of course I only did it a few times then the ice melted off and I was outside learning triad...
hoping for a shot as a hitman for the Chinese mafia?
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marc801
Apr 28, 2009, 3:35 PM
Post #52 of 92
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jt512 wrote: rodion wrote: jt512 wrote: About as long as you "mach-spell." Jay Nice. I liked it, too, but all it's gotten are three one-star votes. Sheesh. I was just maching the guy. Jay
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swoopee
Apr 28, 2009, 4:25 PM
Post #53 of 92
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Never, just get out there and lead.
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robbovius
Apr 28, 2009, 4:45 PM
Post #54 of 92
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Alphaboth wrote: Mock leading is a perfectly natural progression toward leading, don't let people here tell you it's a waste of time. Mock leading forces you to slow down and think about protection, and sometimes it takes more energy to stop and place gear, obviously. Mock leading lets you practice this in a lesser stress environment. Mock lead untill you feel solid and the gear is good.
Maybe...the only part of the above statement that I find even sort of truthful is that it does take more time to hang on and place gear. The first time you really get on the sharp end, you'll feel scared and unable to trust the gear, no matter how much mock leading you do. might as well get it over with now.
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robbovius
Apr 28, 2009, 4:46 PM
Post #55 of 92
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marc801 wrote: jt512 wrote: rodion wrote: jt512 wrote: About as long as you "mach-spell." Jay Nice. I liked it, too, but all it's gotten are three one-star votes. Sheesh. I was just maching the guy. Jay I liked it a lot and just gave that post 5 stars. Unfortunately the thread isn't as funny anymore now that the OP went and corrected his misspelling.
we can still mach him for the spelling-edit lameness.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Apr 28, 2009, 4:47 PM)
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markc
Apr 28, 2009, 6:17 PM
Post #56 of 92
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robbovius wrote: Alphaboth wrote: Mock leading is a perfectly natural progression toward leading, don't let people here tell you it's a waste of time. Mock leading forces you to slow down and think about protection, and sometimes it takes more energy to stop and place gear, obviously. Mock leading lets you practice this in a lesser stress environment. Mock lead untill you feel solid and the gear is good. Maybe...the only part of the above statement that I find even sort of truthful is that it does take more time to hang on and place gear. The first time you really get on the sharp end, you'll feel scared and unable to trust the gear, no matter how much mock leading you do. might as well get it over with now.
Agreed. The effort required to place gear (and the time it really takes to quickly select the right piece the first time) is one of the reasons you dial back the grade while you learn. You can get that sense mock leading, but you're missing a lot of other elements you only get on the sharp end.
I don't view mock leading as a natural progression, but as a construct for guides to offer 'leading' experience without taking on the risk. Mock leading may be of some marginal benefit, but only for a very brief period of time. Beyond that, you're delaying progress by avoiding the mental aspect. For me, and I imagine for many of us, that's where the true challenge lies.
In all of this discussion, I've centered comments around leading on gear. In my opinion, mock leading makes no sense in a sport climbing context.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
Apr 28, 2009, 6:36 PM
Post #57 of 92
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caliclimbergrl wrote: It's up to you -- whenever you feel comfortable. But I never did a mock lead. And most of my partners never did either. As long as you know what you're doing, I don't really see the point.
I think this is the whole point of a mock-lead - the mock-leader does not know what she/he is doing. I understand the point many have made that being on the sharp end is 90% mental, but I do think that placing some gear and dragging a rope while on a top-rope can be very good practice. Placing gear is pretty intuitive, but the sometimes it hard to find a good placement or unclip a piece from your sling while trying to stay on the wall 40' off the deck.
I think mock-leading has definite value in learning trad, but I can see how it could become a crutch. That said, climbing as a second behind an experienced leader carries a ton of value.
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rock_ranger
Apr 28, 2009, 7:18 PM
Post #58 of 92
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So when Matt Segal, Sonnie Trotter, Dave Macleod, Dean Potter, Mike Patz, Ethan Pringle etc. top rope the piss out of a trad line and practice thier gear placments so they only have to take what's necessary. Oh and rack it in order... it's OK cuz they don't call it Mock Leading in the magazine? Or becasue it's 5.14 its OK? I'm confused by all the "sack up and lead it" comments. Shouldn't these pros be shunned instead of praised for their "style"? This seems to be an acceptable and common practice to mock lead lines at your limit or X/R rated.
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dingus
Apr 28, 2009, 7:39 PM
Post #59 of 92
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Master say... Mock Lead THREE ROUTE!
If you argue with Master she pluck your eye out. Argue twice, never see eye to eye with Master again.
DMT
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rock_ranger
Apr 28, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #60 of 92
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dingus wrote: Master say... Mock Lead THREE ROUTE! If you argue with Master she pluck your eye out. Argue twice, never see eye to eye with Master again. DMT
Master I can not find the route you speak of..where is this THREE ROUTE so that I may mock it 
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angry
Apr 28, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #61 of 92
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Many are shunned and no-one is under the delusion that working a route or even worse, headpointing it is anywhere near as good of style as a ground up onsight.
If the route takes good gear, most just lead it and whip, just like a sport route.
The toproping is to figure out seriously tricky gear placements or to figure out moves that when botched, would put the climber on the ground.
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dingus
Apr 28, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #62 of 92
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ARGUE TWO TIMES wrote: dingus wrote: Master say... Mock Lead THREE ROUTE! If you argue with Master she pluck your eye out. Argue twice, never see eye to eye with Master again. DMT Master I can not find the route
See boys and girls? Do NOT argue with Master.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Apr 28, 2009, 7:49 PM)
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rock_ranger
Apr 28, 2009, 7:53 PM
Post #63 of 92
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angry wrote: Many are shunned and no-one is under the delusion that working a route or even worse, headpointing it is anywhere near as good of style as a ground up onsight. If the route takes good gear, most just lead it and whip, just like a sport route. The toproping is to figure out seriously tricky gear placements or to figure out moves that when botched, would put the climber on the ground.
I fully agree Angry. I was just pointing out that "practicing for the main event" is nothing new whether your a n00b or Sharma. There's nothing more pure than going on the adventure of onsighting or FA'ing.
But if your not sure, or don't have the balls, be safe and mock it, TR it, whatever its gonna take to get you to the top and over your hurdles. I'd rahter see n00b's "mocking" ( hard to say with a straight face) than grounding out.
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rock_ranger
Apr 28, 2009, 7:56 PM
Post #64 of 92
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dingus wrote: ARGUE TWO TIMES wrote: dingus wrote: Master say... Mock Lead THREE ROUTE! If you argue with Master she pluck your eye out. Argue twice, never see eye to eye with Master again. DMT Master I can not find the route See boys and girls? Do NOT argue with Master. DMT
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cracklover
Apr 28, 2009, 8:30 PM
Post #65 of 92
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Alphaboth wrote: Mock leading is a perfectly natural progression toward leading, don't let people here tell you it's a waste of time. Mock leading forces you to slow down and think about protection, and sometimes it takes more energy to stop and place gear, obviously. Mock leading lets you practice this in a lesser stress environment. Mock lead untill you feel solid and the gear is good.
Mock leading is not part of any natural progression. It's purely a construct of lawsuit-fearing guides.
But the real question is whether mock leading actual helps you become a leader. Right? Isn't that the heart of the question?
IMO, the answer is a definitive NO! Why not? Because mock leading sets you up for failure. Not only doesn't it help you, it screws you up!
Let's say your TR limit is 5.10c. Now why the hell would you want to mock-lead a 5.5? You're way beyond that. Instead, you mock lead a sustained 5.8 pitch. After a few runs, it will probably feel relatively casual. Woo-hoo! You think. I'm ready to be a leader!
So then you try to actually lead 5.8. And it's a nightmare. This is a double whammy, both because it's so hard, and because you feel it "shouldn't" be.
So far as I can tell, that transition from mock leading to real leading fucks up your head so bad that you never get over it.
Personally, I've never met anyone who's spent significant time mock leading and then gone on to become a real leader. Not one. Though I've known a number of people who went the route of the people I've mentioned above, and never got over it.
Anyway, for the OP's sake, I hope he's the first to prove me wrong.
GO
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eastvillage
Apr 28, 2009, 8:34 PM
Post #66 of 92
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Waste of time. Stop it. Climbing is a ballsy sport, find some.
Find really EASY climbs and go CLIMBING.
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rockandlice
Apr 29, 2009, 1:03 AM
Post #67 of 92
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aerili wrote: [insert related witty mach joke I can't think of right now here]
That would be a first for this thread.
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rtwilli4
Apr 29, 2009, 4:29 PM
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If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.
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markc
Apr 29, 2009, 4:50 PM
Post #69 of 92
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rtwilli4 wrote: If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.
I'm in agreement with most of your post, but that last bit is crap driven by ego. Climbing is climbing. Toproping vs. leading, on-sight vs. projecting, and all the rest is a question of style.
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bill413
Apr 29, 2009, 5:15 PM
Post #70 of 92
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markc wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.I'm in agreement with most of your post, but that last bit is crap driven by ego. Climbing is climbing. Toproping vs. leading, on-sight vs. projecting, and all the rest is a question of style.
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I_do
Apr 30, 2009, 6:30 AM
Post #71 of 92
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bill413 wrote: markc wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.I'm in agreement with most of your post, but that last bit is crap driven by ego. Climbing is climbing. Toproping vs. leading, on-sight vs. projecting, and all the rest is a question of style. True - all climbing
Then top roping is still practice for climbing in a better style, be it sport or trad, I have never seen TRing as an end in itsself.
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chossmonkey
Apr 30, 2009, 10:23 AM
Post #72 of 92
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I_do wrote: bill413 wrote: markc wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.I'm in agreement with most of your post, but that last bit is crap driven by ego. Climbing is climbing. Toproping vs. leading, on-sight vs. projecting, and all the rest is a question of style. True - all climbing Then top roping is still practice for climbing in a better style, be it sport or trad, I have never seen TRing as an end in itsself.
Not that I'd ever make a rule of it, and leading is generally better style, but TR does have a place in "real" climbing.
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apeman_e
Apr 30, 2009, 12:21 PM
Post #73 of 92
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cracklover wrote: Mock leading is not part of any natural progression. It's purely a construct of lawsuit-fearing guides. But the real question is whether mock leading actual helps you become a leader. Right? Isn't that the heart of the question? IMO, the answer is a definitive NO! Why not? Because mock leading sets you up for failure. Not only doesn't it help you, it screws you up! Let's say your TR limit is 5.10c. Now why the hell would you want to mock-lead a 5.5? You're way beyond that. Instead, you mock lead a sustained 5.8 pitch. After a few runs, it will probably feel relatively casual. Woo-hoo! You think. I'm ready to be a leader! So then you try to actually lead 5.8. And it's a nightmare. This is a double whammy, both because it's so hard, and because you feel it "shouldn't" be. So far as I can tell, that transition from mock leading to real leading fucks up your head so bad that you never get over it. Personally, I've never met anyone who's spent significant time mock leading and then gone on to become a real leader. Not one. Though I've known a number of people who went the route of the people I've mentioned above, and never got over it. Anyway, for the OP's sake, I hope he's the first to prove me wrong. GO
+1
Why not just go lead the easiest route you can find? And then lead the second easiest?
Gotta start somewhere.
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I_do
Apr 30, 2009, 1:12 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: I_do wrote: bill413 wrote: markc wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: If you haven't already stopped, you should stop NOW! It is a good way to make sure you know how to not back clip and get twisted up in the rope, but once you've done it once or twice it's time for the real thing. TRing is not climbing, it's practice.I'm in agreement with most of your post, but that last bit is crap driven by ego. Climbing is climbing. Toproping vs. leading, on-sight vs. projecting, and all the rest is a question of style. True - all climbing Then top roping is still practice for climbing in a better style, be it sport or trad, I have never seen TRing as an end in itsself. Its because you have never opened your eyes. Not that I'd ever make a rule of it, and leading is generally better style, but TR does have a place in "real" climbing.
We are not disagreeing though. I just feel that to me TR is not as interesting, I will never look down on anyone for toproping but it does not give me the same sense of statisfaction even though (or maybe because) I'm a terrible leader. Do whatever feels good to you, but to me that has not been toproping for a long time now. Climbing is very personal and anything goes as long as you are honest about your achievements. I think the only rule there should be in climbing is be true to yourself and honest.
Cheers Ido
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rainman0915
May 1, 2009, 4:41 AM
Post #75 of 92
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i only mock leaded for a couple of climbs then started real leading and that was fine for me
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