I had a guy suggest that it was rude at J tree. He said locals like him....bla bla bla. I told him to STFU. Everyone is a local somewhere. All fixed equipment is placed to be used up and replaced. Get over it.

In our neck of the woods, it's generally accepted that you top-rope using your own biners/slings/draws and the last person down gets lowered off the sport clips or super shuts, thus reducing the wear and tear to a minimum.

However, I catch the uneducated top-roping though them all the time. No, it is not dangerous, it just puts more wear and tear on the hardware.

And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)

Make him the second last person? The leader can unclip/clean the gear on his way down.

A kid of that weight won't add much wear to the anchors, it's just bad to make a practice of it.

The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear.

I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap?

Most accidents that I hear about happen because of poor communication. ie. on belay, off belay, secure.....

Clipping the top anchor an getting lowered avoids all of this. If your going to TR the route , you should use your own draws.

And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)

So correct me if i'm wrong, but the issue then is the wear on the gear not necessarily safety.

I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap? Yea you go off belay but it's not like your hanging on a shitty anchor... if that were the case then the whole thing would be unsafe no matter how you came down.

And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)

correct

I think it's the transition people are talking about. If you simply clip and lower, then you're not taking yourself off-belay and anchoring yourself in. It's not about the quality of the anchor, but the additional steps that need to be taken to rap.

Sure, it's probably easy and safe to rap, but why add links to the sytem when they are unecessary?

Then get off your lazy ass and climb it after your kid so you can clean the anchors.

I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal.

Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.? Not so clear. No anchor is good forever.

It seems like it's a good idea to use your own gear b/c it's generally a good practice under other circumstances (especially in trad areas, where anchors may be used for multiple routes or rappels), but I can't see getting worked up about some group not doing it.

I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal.

Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.?

Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors? I find it hard to believe that it's that significant, especially compared with the metal-to-metal contact on anchors when someone clips in.

I have shelled out the money, and I guess I still "don't get it" because I often lower off anchors. Lowering doesn't significantly wear the anchors, TRing does. Big Difference. There's no reason to go off belay when there's no reason to go off belay.

Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors? I find it hard to believe that it's that significant, especially compared with the metal-to-metal contact on anchors when someone clips in.

Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors?

I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal.

Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.? Not so clear. No anchor is good forever.

It seems like it's a good idea to use your own gear b/c it's generally a good practice under other circumstances (especially in trad areas, where anchors may be used for multiple routes or rappels), but I can't see getting worked up about some group not doing it.

Once you have been the one to shell out the money and take the time to replace anchors... you'll get it.

Generally if someone puts up an anchor that you can clip into it is intended to be lowered off of. The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear.

If you decide to donate to the crag use Fish's Mussy hooks, they are probaby cheaper ($5) and will last longer:



http://www.fishproducts.com

I was only suggesting that lowering is probably slightly safer than rapping because it requires fewer steps in this instance.

Lowering doesn't significantly wear the anchors, TRing does

I think it's the transition people are talking about.

If you only have 3/8" chain links (or something similar that's small enough to make passing a bight of rope through it difficult or impossible) at the anchor, there are only two additional steps in rapping: 1) feeding the rope after threading the anchor so both ends are on the ground and 2) threading the rap device.

I don't have any numbers, yet empirically I recall reading about a lot more lowering accidents - miscommunication, end of rope going through belay device, thought they were still on belay while belayer thought the climber was going to rappel (actually saw this one happen - 50' fall from the anchors on a 70' route) - than accidents from rapping a sport route.

You're kidding, right? Do a search. Or are you too lazy for that, too?

GO

If you only have 3/8" chain links (or something similar that's small enough to make passing a bight of rope through it difficult or impossible) at the anchor, there are only two additional steps in rapping: 1) feeding the rope after threading the anchor so both ends are on the ground and 2) threading the rap device.

I don't have any numbers, yet empirically I recall reading about a lot more lowering accidents - miscommunication, end of rope going through belay device, thought they were still on belay while belayer thought the climber was going to rappel (actually saw this one happen - 50' fall from the anchors on a 70' route) - than accidents from rapping a sport route.

And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the clip-in anchors. The ones where a bight isn't necessary.

Here are some Fixe SS sport anchors that were replaced after only 3 years of use:
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165970858.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165970881.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165973693.jpg[/image]

Here are some other random pictures of rope-wear on hardware:
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937131.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937161.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937191.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937210.jpg[/image]

Still skeptical?

"I see plenty of routes that have to have the big 1/2" thick quick links replaced yearly."

That sounds pretty convincing to me. I'm surprised, but if that's the case, then people should definitely try to avoid it, at least as a general rule.

That said, I'd still be inclined to make exceptions in those cases where -- for some at least minimally valid reason -- the climber at issue was either relatively inexperienced (raising safety issues) or a 45 pound child (making the wear issue much less important, as well as raising safety issues).

But it's rarely going to be necessary or a good idea to have such a climber be the last one on the route.

Nice pics, I can't believe they got that bad before they were replaced.

I cleaned the anchors....then my daughter climbed..

Generally if someone puts up an anchor that you can clip into it is intended to be lowered off of. The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear.

If you decide to donate to the crag use Fish's Mussy hooks, they are probaby cheaper ($5) and will last longer:

and if someone donates fixed clips, don't be an asshole (and a moron?) and steal the scrappy fixed gear!

Nice pics, I can't believe they got that bad before they were replaced.

Ah right... that would be because when you're TR'ing, the only weight on the anchor is the weight of the rope (unless you're hang-dogging), whereas when you're lowering, your weight plus your belayer's weight is being held by the anchor, and friction is inversely proportional to the normal force...

Try again...

Seriously...how many folks actually think that they could (or should) be part of anchor replacement?