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bill413
May 21, 2009, 5:12 PM
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[quote "Johnny_Fang"Trad is to gym climbing as a feral housecat is to the tiger that attacked Sigfried. Or was it Roy?
Roy attacked Sigfried? 
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 21, 2009, 5:14 PM)
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DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 5:13 PM
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I don't think I ever changed my opinion onceahardman. If anything, I think your continuing to refer to gym climbing as "tae bo" as if to refer to it as some girly pursuit for sissies just shows what I'm talking about. Why the constant need for these comparisons, especially trad to sport?
What's the obsession with this this situation where you're outdoors climbing being a manly man placing nuts, and cocky Joe Gym Rat shows up, gets on his PA speaker, and announces, "Sup bros, 5.13 gym climber here, if you want to see some gnarly climbing, just watch me". Then he gets shut down on a 5.9, and you come over and laugh at him or something?
I don't f***ing get it. Of course there are people that overestimate their abilities. Who cares. I guess the fact that a few of those people exist means that anyone who climbs in a gym shares the same mindset? Get over yourself.
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 5:19 PM
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sidepull wrote: healyje wrote: hafilax wrote: Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill. Indoor climbing is like running on a treadmill with three other people. Too bad those 3 people will be the one's setting outdoor standards for the next 2 decades. As cool as trad climbing is and as "lame" as gym climbing might be, the skill and strength transfer sets up gymbies for crushing. You can't say the same for years and years of trad. Sorry.
Fair point, sidepull, and one I first saw some 20 years ago, when I helped build a gym with an old guiding partner. I soon saw young kids come in, claiming to have sent these old formerly "hard" problems, after climbing only a few months. Sobering.
I see gym climbing kind of as the "resistance training" of rock climbing. Makes you very strong, quickly, and helps to build good movement patterns.
But it's bad for routefinding skills. I think indoor climbing will help sport grades continue to increase, but I'm not sure you'll see a concurrent increase in onsight trad standards in the mountains.
BTW, what is the current world standard for onsight trad grade? And when is the last time that number has gone up?
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: If anything, I think your continuing to refer to gym climbing as "tae bo" as if to refer to it as some girly pursuit for sissies just shows what I'm talking about. Why the constant need for these comparisons, especially trad to sport?
Please stop with the strawmen. I never said, nor intended to say, anything resembling your claims.
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DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 5:25 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Please stop with the strawmen. I never said, nor intended to say, anything resembling your claims.
Most overused term on this site. I'm not straw-maning you, as that seems to be your whole point.
But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: If anything, I think your continuing to refer to gym climbing as "tae bo" as if to refer to it as some girly pursuit for sissies just shows what I'm talking about. Why the constant need for these comparisons, especially trad to sport?
You are the one saying gym climbing is a "girly pursuit". That is the strawman you have set up.
Read what I really said, rather than what you "feel" I said.
"Nothing wrong with (gym climbing/tae-bo)."
"Nothing wrong with seeing gym climbing as an end in itself".
No "girly" talk from me. I wouldn't dare. Many women are way better than me, whether they climb indoors or out. There is no need for me to get over myself. My ego is pretty small.
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DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 5:46 PM
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I suppose, going back to your first post, you basically just said that gym climbing is to rock climbing as tae-bo is to martial arts. The thing is - Tae Bo is a made up exercise program from the late 80s/early 90s, designed to be marketed via infomercials and what not. It is hardly a training regimen that would be used by real practitioners of martial arts. So, for that reason, I think the analogy is poor, and insulting to gym climbers.
When I see Vince on TV at 1:30 in the morning telling me to come to the climbing gym, right after a commercial for girls gone wild...then I'll agree with you.
Even if you didn't compare gym climbing to tae bo to cast it in a negative light, I don't think it's a stretch for me to draw the conclusions I have.
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angry
May 21, 2009, 5:51 PM
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You're awfully defensive Dexter. I wonder if you're secretly a murderer who works with the cops.
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DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 5:53 PM
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angry wrote: You're awfully defensive Dexter. I wonder if you're secretly a murderer who works with the cops.
Wrong decade/medium. But, I have been meaning to watch that show, I hear it's good.
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camhead
May 21, 2009, 6:12 PM
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onceahardman wrote: fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros  Spoken like a t-ball player You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better". Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game.
bad analogy. If it was accurate, then we would see quite a few high-level t-ball players jumping into MLB with only a couple weeks' experience. And we'd also see a lot of major leaguers getting completely shut down trying to play t-ball.
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Bryan2102
May 21, 2009, 6:33 PM
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When I read this post yesterday, I thought it was interesting as I've only been climbing in a gym(i've only been climbing 6weeks and haven't had the opportunity to go outdoors yet). I didn't find it offensive at all, yet it's surprising to see how much the OP has been shredded and criticized. Fun too. :]
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hafilax
May 21, 2009, 6:47 PM
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The T-ball analogy works pretty well if all you're talking about is the protection.
To me, the big divides between trad and sport or even gym climbing is the climbing situation. I enjoy being high up on a climb in a beautiful and remote backdrop. The difficulty of the climbing is immaterial although the harder one climbs the route selection seems to grow geometrically (maybe?). There are a few sport/bolted climbs that fit the bill and the gym is right out.
I run on a treadmill for the fitness I need for long hikes into the alpine. I climb in the gym to for the fitness I need for long routes in the alpine. Tae-bo could be part of a martial arts training regime for improving cardio fitness while performing kicks and jabs. However, training for fitness is a small part of becoming proficient at these activities.
I climb at the gym purely for fitness but in many ways it is detrimental to my climbing outside. My footwork goes to pot as I lose that sixth sense of how my shoes will stick to the rock. I'm also pretty programmed for climbing the height of the gym. I always say that I should lap routes or do multiple routes in a row but the gym is too crowded on the days I'm there. Gym climbing does nothing for learning those weird off-finger/hand/fist/width techniques.
Me at the gym -> 
Me on a multipitch ->  (occasionally )
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 7:23 PM
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camhead wrote: onceahardman wrote: fresh wrote: sungam wrote: "Oh, so sport climbing is like T-ball??" T-ball where all the players are way better than the pros Spoken like a t-ball player You think that because you hit .900 in t-ball (or climb 5.13 sport), that you are "better". Yet you fail to recognize you are really playing a different (and easier) game. bad analogy. If it was accurate, then we would see quite a few high-level t-ball players jumping into MLB with only a couple weeks' experience. And we'd also see a lot of major leaguers getting completely shut down trying to play t-ball.
I didn't make the t-ball analogy. A guy mangus met in Moab did. And his comparison was sport vs trad, not gym vs rock, which WAS my initial analogy.
I've never seen anyone break into high-level trad (there are several newer 5.13 trad routes in the Adirondacks, among my favorite areas) with only "a couple weeks' experience". So even though it wasn't MY analogy, I think it still has some application, even if imperfect.
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camhead
May 21, 2009, 7:46 PM
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sorry, hardman, I did not mean to imply that it was your analogy.
However, many high level trad climbers in the US today (Trotter, Segal, Pringle, Stack, etc.) broke into the discipline quickly, and without "working their way through the grades." Pringle's first trad lead was a 5.13. Less high profile, but I have known quite a few strong sport climbers (5.13 or so) who do not even consider themselves traddies, but have sent up to 5.11+ on gear.
The stereotype of strong sportos that have their knees shake on Gunks 5.8 or whatever is a strawman, WAY less prevalent than old traddies with fragile egos would have you believe. A 5.14 climber is going to climb 5.12 trad much easier than a 5.12 trad climber is going to climb 5.14 sport. Plain and Simple.
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reno
May 21, 2009, 8:09 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote: But come to think of it, I'm not really sure what point you have. Seriously. So gym climbing - should not be pursued? Makes you a poor outdoor climber? Is not fun? Is a waste of people's time? What?
Here's the point: Gym climbing is not the same as outdoor rock climbing. About the only things they share in common are harnesses, shoes, a rope, and a belay device.
Otherwise, they're wildly different, and just because you're a good gym climber doesn't mean you're destined to do well outdoors.
Two. Different. Animals.
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dingus
May 21, 2009, 8:13 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Anyway, I thought of this analogy: Gym climbing is to rock climbing, as Tae-bo is to martial arts.
Dude don't start with the analogies round here. These turtle heads can't handle the analogy... they never get past the anal part.
Your humor will be lost in a fog of dumbshit.
DMT
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Gmburns2000
May 21, 2009, 8:14 PM
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dingus wrote: onceahardman wrote: Anyway, I thought of this analogy: Gym climbing is to rock climbing, as Tae-bo is to martial arts. Dude don't start with the analogies round here. These turtle heads can't handle the analogy... they never get past the anal part. Your humor will be lost in a fog of dumbshit. DMT
I think you're a bit late.
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dingus
May 21, 2009, 8:19 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: dingus wrote: onceahardman wrote: Anyway, I thought of this analogy: Gym climbing is to rock climbing, as Tae-bo is to martial arts. Dude don't start with the analogies round here. These turtle heads can't handle the analogy... they never get past the anal part. Your humor will be lost in a fog of dumbshit. DMT I think you're a bit late.
Yes I wandered down the thread a bit after posting that to affirm my prediction - right on schedule.
DMT
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dingus
May 21, 2009, 8:21 PM
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onceahardman wrote: I didn't make the t-ball analogy.
You don't have to apologize because others cannot understand a simple analogy.
DMT
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angry
May 21, 2009, 8:44 PM
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camhead wrote: sorry, hardman, I did not mean to imply that it was your analogy. However, many high level trad climbers in the US today (Trotter, Segal, Pringle, Stack, etc.) broke into the discipline quickly, and without "working their way through the grades." Pringle's first trad lead was a 5.13. Less high profile, but I have known quite a few strong sport climbers (5.13 or so) who do not even consider themselves traddies, but have sent up to 5.11+ on gear. The stereotype of strong sportos that have their knees shake on Gunks 5.8 or whatever is a strawman, WAY less prevalent than old traddies with fragile egos would have you believe. A 5.14 climber is going to climb 5.12 trad much easier than a 5.12 trad climber is going to climb 5.14 sport. Plain and Simple.
But you're dropping grades in the analogy, not climbing.
Would a 5.14 sport climber have less trouble on 5.12 trad than a 5.12 trad climber would have on 5.10 sport?
That's not what I believe, I'm just keeping you consistent.
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 9:22 PM
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Thanks dingus, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and a connoisseur of fine whisky.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on May 21, 2009, 9:23 PM)
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onceahardman
May 21, 2009, 9:27 PM
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angry wrote: camhead wrote: sorry, hardman, I did not mean to imply that it was your analogy. However, many high level trad climbers in the US today (Trotter, Segal, Pringle, Stack, etc.) broke into the discipline quickly, and without "working their way through the grades." Pringle's first trad lead was a 5.13. Less high profile, but I have known quite a few strong sport climbers (5.13 or so) who do not even consider themselves traddies, but have sent up to 5.11+ on gear. The stereotype of strong sportos that have their knees shake on Gunks 5.8 or whatever is a strawman, WAY less prevalent than old traddies with fragile egos would have you believe. A 5.14 climber is going to climb 5.12 trad much easier than a 5.12 trad climber is going to climb 5.14 sport. Plain and Simple. But you're dropping grades in the analogy, not climbing. Would a 5.14 sport climber have less trouble on 5.12 trad than a 5.12 trad climber would have on 5.10 sport? That's not what I believe, I'm just keeping you consistent.
True 'nuff.
While I don't think there is any question regarding how quickly a talented youth can get strong indoors, it's a bit much to expect a 5.12 climber to climb 5.14.
Now, then, would a 5.14 trad climber have an easier time with 5.14 sport, or would a 5.14 sport climber have an easier time on 5.14 trad?
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Toast_in_the_Machine
May 21, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Except…..
I want to go back to the first analogy. Tae-bo is to martial arts. I’ve noticed something about people who are either doing a “martial arts” based exercise or are involved in a martial art that has a “form”. Some of the people who do the exercise / form, do the punch or kick and they look like they are moving out and back. Dancing. Not hitting – dancing. Their movements have no force to it. A second group of people can do the same move and it looks like they are hitting the space. One is just doing the arm movements; the other is punching. One is good exercise, the other is good exercise for fighting.
I’ve tried to link that back to sport v. trad v. gym. But the exact words fail me. Something in there about intent and focus…
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sungam
May 21, 2009, 11:48 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote: If I had my choice, I'd have no job, and could climb (and ski, other hobby) wherever and whenever I wanted.
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DexterRutecki
May 21, 2009, 11:54 PM
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sungam wrote: DexterRutecki wrote: If I had my choice, I'd have no job, and could climb (and ski, other hobby) wherever and whenever I wanted. So what the fuck are you waiting for?
Someone to give me the money to pay off my student loans. Oh, but then I'd still need money to travel, buy food, lift tickets, equipment, clothing, etc. I could get hurt pretty easily skiing or climbing, so I'll need some health insurance too. Eventually all of this stuff will probably have me pretty worn down, and I'll need some sort of "retirement fund" to live off of. I guess what I really need is some sort of trust fund. Are you volunteering?
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