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socalclimber805
Jun 3, 2009, 5:45 PM
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When you show up to a popular top rope route, one with bolts at the top, do you always check how the anchor was rigged before hopping on someone else's rope? I am specifically talking about top rope only routes, not when someone led the climb and you are tope roping off of quickdraws or carbiners that later have to be cleaned. Having recently learned how to setup top rope anchors with the regular rigging methods, i.e cordellete, equallete, and sliding x, I am much more concious of jumping on someone else's rope without looking at how the anchor was rigged first. Is it rude to ask how it was setup and nicely quiz the person about their setup experience? How do you guys do it?
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coastal_climber
Jun 3, 2009, 5:50 PM
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socalclimber805 wrote: When you show up to a popular top rope route, one with bolts at the top, do you always check how the anchor was rigged before hopping on someone else's rope? I am specifically talking about top rope only routes, not when someone led the climb and you are tope roping off of quickdraws or carbiners that later have to be cleaned. Having recently learned how to setup top rope anchors with the regular rigging methods, i.e cordellete, equallete, and sliding x, I am much more concious of jumping on someone else's rope without looking at how the anchor was rigged first. Is it rude to ask how it was setup and nicely quiz the person about their setup experience? How do you guys do it?
Don't do that.
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Carnage
Jun 3, 2009, 5:51 PM
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i usually glance up and see if it looks retarded or not. Also, you can usually get an idea about the groups experience level by watching them for about 2 min. This should be enough to tell you whether or not it would be a good idea to get on the rope.
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caughtinside
Jun 3, 2009, 5:52 PM
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the sliding x is fine.
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azstephen
Jun 3, 2009, 5:57 PM
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caughtinside wrote: the sliding x is fine.
No
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caughtinside
Jun 3, 2009, 6:01 PM
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Ok noobs. Clearly it's a death rig. classic.
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boku
Jun 3, 2009, 6:05 PM
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It depends. At issue is that, in many if not most cases, the anchor is not available for inspection and you have to climb the route to see it. That leads to what the software engineers might call a "recursion error."
But your point is well taken: Not every climber you meet at every crag has the sense to construct a safe anchor.
My general habit is to look at the anchor to the degree practical, just to make sure they're not doing anything outright crazy. That is, if they're on bolted chains they're using both chains, they're not just running the rope through a nylon sling, that kind of thing.
Beyond that, I probably spend more energy profiling the climbers who made the anchor. Do they seem alert and conscientious? Does their gear and demeanor match that of other climbers whom I trust? Is the gear that I can see (harness, rope, belay devices) deployed properly?
I think I've only once or twice declined a ride because I assessed the situation negatively. I can remember only one time where I encountered a top rope anchor that was outright dangerous (a party toproping through a hollow aluminum rap ring that was almost worn through; fortunately I'd led an adjacent route).
And I can remember only one occasion where I regretted taking a ride, where the belayer chuckled and said "See you in hell!" just before he started lowering me (fortunately safely) to the deck.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 3, 2009, 6:11 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Ok noobs. Clearly it's a death rig. classic.
If you use a sliding x YOU WILL DIE.
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socalclimber805
Jun 3, 2009, 6:14 PM
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I should have made this clearer in the original question. I am referring to top rope ONLY climbs that you have to walk to the top of the climb and use the bolts that are already there to rig your anchor. Do you walk to the top of the climb to check the rigging method is the question? And as for those that knock the sliding X, are those thoughts the same when you account for limiter knots?
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wonderwoman
Jun 3, 2009, 6:14 PM
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"While the sliding X does equalize the pieces, it assumes that neither could break, since if one does break, there is severe extension in the system - enough that it would likely cause the carabiners to break."
For real?
I've just never heard of carabiners breaking due to top roping off a sliding x. Are there documented instances of this type of breakage? Seems a little extreme to suggest! Just the first time I've ever heard of such a thing.
Edited because I misread the OP.
(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Jun 3, 2009, 6:18 PM)
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zchandran
Jun 3, 2009, 6:23 PM
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socalclimber805 wrote: When you show up to a popular top rope route, one with bolts at the top, do you always check how the anchor was rigged before hopping on someone else's rope?
My very first day away from the gym and at a real crag, I toproped up a slab on someone else's rope that was already set. It was a climbing group with a leader who looked like he knew what he was doing.
You couldn't see the anchor from the bottom, but when I got up there I found out it was a single regular quickdraw clipped to a bolt.
I didn't say anything when I got down because I was a newb, and I was thinking "maybe all the stuff in the Anchors book is just theoretical, and this is what real climbers do out in the field..."
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shockabuku
Jun 3, 2009, 6:30 PM
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They make that sound like people are setting up a sliding-x with a 20 foot cordellette and not the typical 2 foot sling.
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jt512
Jun 3, 2009, 6:30 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: "While the sliding X does equalize the pieces, it assumes that neither could break, since if one does break, there is severe extension in the system - enough that it would likely cause the carabiners to break." For real?
If the remaining carabiners can't handle a factor 0.1 fall, then there is a big problem with the carabiners.
Jay
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fxgranite
Jun 3, 2009, 6:33 PM
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I'm of two minds on this one and see two different scenarios. It really depends on how the agreement to share the rope went.
If you asked me if you could share a rope that I had put up I would certainly agree but would not take kindly to "quizzing." Maybe i just disagree with the word. You should definitely ask how I set up the anchor but quizzing me on my knowledge would seem rude. I'm doing you a favor.
Now if I asked you if you wanted to share the rope with us I think I'd be more amenable to a slight quizzing. It's a very minor point to be sure and I bet that it is never that black and white.
As someone else mentioned, you can usually see how competent people are by just watching them for a couple minutes.
Oh and I go out of my way to use the sliding X.
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vegastradguy
Jun 3, 2009, 6:33 PM
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meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it.
(fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage)
oh, and a sliding X on bolts isnt bad, per se, its just not really doing anything for you. the concern about shockloading one of the arms is silly on a pair of modern bolts- a single bolt wont fail under TR loads, no matter what you do to it.
the concern about a sliding X on gear is a different matter- if one of the arms fails, the real concern is the amount of force on the remaining piece, not the carabiner, which may be enough to blow the piece, depending. as a general rule of thumb, if the gear is bomber, the sliding X isnt necessary, and if the gear is crap and the sliding X is necessary, you probably shouldnt be top roping on it.
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icedpulleys
Jun 3, 2009, 6:40 PM
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If I were climbing at a TR-only crag, I'd probably mosey on up to the top to visually inspect someone's anchor if I was thinking of jumping on their rope.
I haven't been to many TR-only crags (thankfully), but in the few times that I have, there have occasionally been some strong gym climbers that jury-rigged some scary TR setup. I've even stopped someone as they were tying into a rope that was running directly through webbing.
But you can also tell quite a bit by how someone describes their anchor. If you ask them to tell you about their anchor and setup and they don't know the names of the knots that they used, how many pieces the anchor uses, or even what a carabiner is called (true story: "clippy thing"), then those are all warning signs and it's probably time to walk up to the top for the sake of everyone's safety.
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lena_chita
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Jun 3, 2009, 6:44 PM
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socalclimber805 wrote: When you show up to a popular top rope route, one with bolts at the top, do you always check how the anchor was rigged before hopping on someone else's rope? I am specifically talking about top rope only routes, not when someone led the climb and you are tope roping off of quickdraws or carbiners that later have to be cleaned. Having recently learned how to setup top rope anchors with the regular rigging methods, i.e cordellete, equallete, and sliding x, I am much more concious of jumping on someone else's rope without looking at how the anchor was rigged first. Is it rude to ask how it was setup and nicely quiz the person about their setup experience? How do you guys do it?
I don't toprope, so there is no issue. 
And off-topic, but I thought it was socalclimber who posted this, and I was very confused by the fact that he JUST learned about anchors. Then I noticed those pesky numbers after the username...
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zeke_sf
Jun 3, 2009, 6:50 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: caughtinside wrote: Ok noobs. Clearly it's a death rig. classic. If you use a sliding x YOU WILL DIE.
The opposite is also true.
To the OP: I usually check the toprope setup as I climb up to the anchor before deciding whether or not to soil my drawers. Sometimes in the interest of redundancy I just soil them beforehand, regardless of the anchor setup. I find that checking out the anchor before climbing on it doesn't instill the necessary sense of drawer shitting outrage that I generally aim for. Needless to say, I am not invited to many parties.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Jun 3, 2009, 6:56 PM)
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glytch
Jun 3, 2009, 6:50 PM
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The ASCA article linked above is outdated and just plain wrong. There have been extensive discussions (tens, maybe even hundreds of pages) both here and elsewhere, in which the benefits of dynamic and static equalization methods were debated. These discussions were informed heavily by, among others, John Long and the research he did for the latest version of Climbing Anchors. A summary of (some of) the conclusions:
1) Static equalization is a misnomer. A static anchor only loads the pieces equally in a single direction of pull. Since that direction of pull is basically arbitrarily small, static anchors do not equalize If you have a cordalette tied off with a figure-8 on a bight, for instance, there is no appreciable equalization when a load is applied. If you have a statically equalized anchor (two slings clipped together, for instance), a single arm of that anchor will hold almost all of the load (though, which arm of that anchor holds the load depends on the angle at which the load is applied).
Despite this fact, I often use static anchoring setups. I routinely anchor myself to 2 bolts using 2 static slings. The reason? Contained in point 3.
2) Dynamic equalization (such as that provided by a sliding x) does permit the various legs of an anchor to share a load. Not perfectly, mind you - once the anchor is loaded, the sliding components tend to bind; a sliding anchor may not equalize that well throughout a pendulous fall. That said the equalization you get from something like a sliding-x is going to be worlds better at distributing a load between multiple pieces when compared to any statically tied setup.
3) Extension of one leg of an anchor does not expose the remaining legs to a harsh shock unless there is a load statically connected to that anchor. In other words, if you're tied into the anchor with a section of dynamic rope, a piece pulls, and the anchor extends, the rope's dynamic properties will smooth the force profile that you apply to the anchor following its extension, and the force you're applying will be no worse than lead fall (the exact magnitude, of course, is determined by the amount of rope connecting you to the anchor, as well as the amount of extension).
Extension is dangerous when you are statically connected to an anchor. If the anchor has a piece blow and extends, you're subjecting the remaining pieces to a very large force; your connection to the anchor does not stretch to smooth the force applied. In other words, if you're clipped to an anchor using a sling or daisy chain, and that anchor has a piece pull and extends, you may be endangering the anchor. Take home message? If at all possible, connect yourself to the anchor with a length of dynamic cord. This is most easily done with the rope (obviously), but there's an adjustable length tether system that some people use, though I'm forgetting its name now (a little help?).
corollary to the take-home-message: If you must clip in statically to an anchor (you're rigging a rappel and need the rope, for instance), DO NOT climb above that anchor, and do your damndest to limit the possible extension of that anchor.
All of this argument and reasoning (and heaps more) can be found in some of the long anchor discussion threads here on rc.com. The old "you must limit extension because you'll 'shock load' the anchor and it'll blow" argument has been dealt a pretty solid beating in recent times. Extension should not be ignored, but there's a perpetual tradeoff between extension and equalization, and often equalization is the more important factor to consider.
(This post was edited by glytch on Jun 3, 2009, 6:51 PM)
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chadnsc
Jun 3, 2009, 7:01 PM
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If I don't know and trust the person whose rope and anchor I'll be climbing on then yes I check their anchor setup.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 3, 2009, 7:03 PM
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I don't get on many TR's set up by people I'm not climbing with for the day, but if I came across a group of "TR Only" types, I am pretty sure I would be able to find other things to do with my time than get on the route. Just the way I am, I suppose, but some things that make me say "hmmm...." are:
- a set up that is 3 feet off the line, with no directional in place
- a group of loud people that includes several adults who clearly don't climb yet can't seem to find something better to do with the time than yack up the belayers
- young guys where one seems to be the gumby and the others are shouting things like "awesome!" or a couple young guys with their girlfriends who are out for their first time
I don't set very many TR's myself, but recently took someone out and did the sliding X on one of the set ups.... I'd be interested to know what the range of force really is on a TR when extension occurs. I don't think it's a bolt failing that would be the cause, but more apt to come from a powerpoint with biner(s) to close to the face, on a gang day of TR'ing a route over and over, and having a biner unclip.
Seen plenty of sport or trad draws, regular biners, on bolts as TR. I have to admit I prefer to build something a little beefier. For one, the issue of the rope/biners being clear from the rock face, but also I just like the lockers on a TR. Superstition.
If someone makes fun of me, I say that it is my sacrifice to the Climbing Gods; they do like their gear offerings. And besides, using the stuff gets my Cost per Use Ratio down. I just don't think I could ever throw 2 regular draws up and call it a day, just because. But yes, I have climbed on that set up.
Would I quiz someone on their set up? No. Climbing, to me, is about self reliance and accountability. If I have a question in my head as to my partner's ability to put up a decent anchor(on lead or as TR), then I won't be falling on the route. The most I would do is yard on the ropes from below to see if anything comes tumbling down. That's if I was the first to go. If I get to the top and that Shape-Shifting Reaper had manifested himself as an awful anchor, then I would address it. Top out/clip in and make it acceptable to me.
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Situation dependent.
If I were climbing in so-cal like you, and the rope was owned by a bunch of stoner patchouli-smelling hippies who looked like extras from a dumb-and-dumber movie, I wouldn't ask them anything, I'd just say "Hey!", do the walk up to the top, check their anchors myself, and come to my own conclusions.
But if I were in the Northeast, with a bunch of stick-up-their butt lawyers, scientists, and engineers, who rig everything perfectly, practice their knots and anchors for fun, and could describe in minute detail how each biner on the anchor is screwed "down and out", "opposite and opposed", with 5/8" nylon webbing and yadda yadda, I'll either ask them "What's up there?" or else just size 'em up and call it good.
In all seriousness - I make my best guess about the climbers and their experience and go from there.
GO
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