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jt512
Jul 17, 2009, 10:22 PM
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rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: Most sport routes are not designed to be safely set up on TR from the top. The anchors are on the face of the climb because they are expected to be clipped on lead. If you want to safely set up a TR, you have to lead the route to do it. Jay Why not just rap down to the anchors are set too far from safe reach? Why not just lead the route? Jay You stated the anchors could not be safely reached without leading the route. To me the statement was false, but I posed the question to find out what your logic behind that statement was. I suppose I don't follow the logic of strictly suggesting leading the climb when posting a reply to a thread in the beginner forum, especially when other logical options exist.
Try thinking more like a climber and less like a gumby. The OP answered his own question: "You lead the route or walk away."
Jay
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rockreaver
Jul 17, 2009, 11:03 PM
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zchandran wrote: If you're reasonably sure you're not going to fall, wouldn't using a screamer in conjunction with your PAS be the way to go? I've never been in this situation so this is obviously hypothetical. But it seems like throwing a screamer into the mix takes all the risk out of the all-static scenario.
Yeah that is what I thought too. But screamers are spendy and I'd rather not fall at all so I'd prefer to just rap down.
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rockreaver
Jul 17, 2009, 11:18 PM
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rockandlice wrote: rockreaver wrote: Yeah that is what I thought too. But screamers are spendy and I'd rather not fall at all so I'd prefer to just rap down. You better consult with Jaysus512 on this one. Apparently rapping has never been an option. 
Next time I'm up there I'll try and capture the sequence in a set of photos. I thought it offered a challenging setup. Obviously the girls were not lead climbers (or they were drunk). The Metolius hangers are about 4 feet down the face of a downward sloping cliff/shelf. If you pitch over the edge and your harness isn't on right you will find yourself supermanning through your harness into a 65 foot free-fall to terra-firma.
About 15' feet back you could build a bomber anchor with stoppers/cams/slcds if you wanted but as much as possible I was trying to think of a safe way the girls could have done it.
Now having gotten some replies I'm thinking they could have used the rope, done a body belay of sorts and done it pretty safely but you couldn't have paid me to do that.
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jt512
Jul 17, 2009, 11:19 PM
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rockandlice wrote: Huh, beginners have to walk up and lead a route or walk away eh? That's a new one. 
Ignorance is not something you should be so proud of displaying.
Since you need to have it spelled out for you. Most sport routes are designed to be led. The anchors are on the face of the route. Often, there is no practical access to the top, except to climb the route. Even if there is access, since the routes are never topped out, the area above the route is rarely, if ever, traveled. It will usually not have been cleaned. It may be dangerously sloped and/or loose. There will often be nothing up there to anchor to. Even if there is, some gumby walking around up there and leaning over the edge is likely to cause a rockfall hazard to the climbers below.
So, if the beginner isn't up to leading the route, and no one in his party is, and the route is at a typical sport crag, where access to the top is dangerous, then that climber is simply not ready to climb that route. Most sport crags are simply not designed for beginners who cannot lead to climb at without a competent leader in their party.
From the Williamson Rock guidebook: "To climb at Williamson one should be a competent leader, as there are only a few routes that can be easily set up for toprope without leading." This is the case for the vast majority of sport crags. The only thing unusual about Williamson in this regard is that the guidebook bothers to mention it. One winter day some years ago, Climbsomething and I were climbing at a sport crag in Tucson. A couple of confused looking kids showed up and asked, "Where are the topropes?" Hillary and I just looked at each other, and said, "There aren't any." The kids looked defeated. It turns out they had driven over 1000 miles from some midwestern shithole to get in some warm weather climbing over their winter break. Neither of them could lead, and they—just like you—had no idea that at most sport crags, there is essentially no other way to put up a top rope. I put their rope up for them on an easy route, and then Hillary and I went off to another wall. As far as I know, their entire climbing vacation consisted of toproping that one route.
SB
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 17, 2009, 11:31 PM)
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rockreaver
Jul 17, 2009, 11:22 PM
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cracklover wrote: Okay, first of all, if I'm imagining the situation that had you freaked out in the first place - I think you're overreacting, it's no big deal. I've gone places where the anchors are an arm's length below the top of the cliff face, and there's a nice flat top to the cliff. It's just not that big a deal to lie down, reach down to clip stuff in, and set up your TR like that. And having someone hold your ankles or something is a nice backup in case you have a hard time scootching back up over the edge. You're right that the PAS is not the greatest solution, because of the huge forces you'd get from falling from above the anchors directly onto it. Better off just using a plain old nylon sling, which absorbs more force. Better yet, use a purcell prusik. Best yet, just don't fall while you're rigging the anchor. Which brings me back to the first paragraph. Oh, and yeah, you could easily break a biner if the gate happened to get pushed open while you were falling in that scenario. Cheers, GO
The shelf sloped downward and the Metolius hangers were about 4' down from the ledge. There was a chicken-head to grab and a crack to jam your foot into for leverage but when I tried to repeat the effort like the girls did I felt pretty exposed and backed off in a hurry.
Since the discussion is kind of fun and I climb there all the time I'll snap some photos next time I'm near that particular route and maybe it might help to shed light on the problem. I think once you saw it that it might make you think "ground up or walk away". Fear isn't something I battle with often but I almost slid over and my anchors and webbing caught me before I spilled. It was enough for me to back off. I could easily have rap'd over the edge though.
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rockandlice
Jul 17, 2009, 11:26 PM
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LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay.
You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe. Making a blanket statement that rapping into to the anchors is not an option is incredibly moronic.
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jt512
Jul 17, 2009, 11:32 PM
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rockandlice wrote: LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay. You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe.
I suppose they are more common at the 5.8 level.
But you seem to have missed the point. At most sport crags you can't really even get to the top of the cliff safely to rap down to the anchors. Get it? No practical access to the top.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 17, 2009, 11:35 PM)
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rockreaver
Jul 17, 2009, 11:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay. You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe. I suppose they are more common at the 5.8 level. But you seem to have missed the point. At most sport crags you can't really even get to the top of the cliff safely to rap down to the anchors. Get it? No practical access to the top. Jay
You are right on the money Jay. Where I climb you can hike up but the dudes who bolted the routes didn't want every pig around hanging off their bolts so they have a bit of run-out near the top. Usually your last clip is about 15' below the anchors and the anchors are about 6" to 5' below the rim of the canyon with the majority being about 4' below the rim.
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rockandlice
Jul 17, 2009, 11:47 PM
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jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay. You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe. I suppose they are more common at the 5.8 level. But you seem to have missed the point. At most sport crags you can't really even get to the top of the cliff safely to rap down to the anchors. Get it? No practical access to the top. Jay
Yeah, and how many beginners are climbing at the 5.13 level?
And no, I don't get it. You are still making a BLANKET statement that is simply not true. Most implies this is the majority norm at all areas. Of the sport crags within a 3 hours drive of my location, at least 3/4's of them are safely and easily accessible to the top.
Let's use an example. My local stomping ground is the New. A large majority of the climbs there can be safely TR'd using various methods, including rapping to the anchors to set up a TR. I can even name 100's of 5.11-5.13 climbs that this can be done on there.
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rockreaver
Jul 17, 2009, 11:49 PM
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jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: ...The anchors are on the face of the route. Often, there is no practical access to the top, except to climb the route. Even if there is access, since the routes are never topped out, the area above the route is rarely, if ever, traveled. It will usually not have been cleaned. It may be dangerously sloped and/or loose... You are exactly right. The routes are not cleaned off. It's extremely dangerous to be up above the routes. In fact I was with some guys cleaning the rim off and we had permission from the BLM and the climbing association to go clean it. We dumped numerous several hundred pound stones off the rim. What scared me was the number of 50 to 100 pound stones that appeared to be beautiful holds from the bottom. Scary!!!
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jt512
Jul 18, 2009, 12:47 AM
Post #39 of 56
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rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay. You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe. I suppose they are more common at the 5.8 level. But you seem to have missed the point. At most sport crags you can't really even get to the top of the cliff safely to rap down to the anchors. Get it? No practical access to the top. Jay Yeah, and how many beginners are climbing at the 5.13 level? And no, I don't get it. You are still making a BLANKET statement that is simply not true. Most implies this is the majority norm at all areas. Of the sport crags within a 3 hours drive of my location, at least 3/4's of them are safely and easily accessible to the top. Let's use an example. My local stomping ground is the New. A large majority of the climbs there can be safely TR'd using various methods, including rapping to the anchors to set up a TR.
Well, I see where you're coming from, then, but the New is not typical.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 18, 2009, 12:51 AM
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rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: LOL, you sure are full of yourself Jay. You pose an awful lot of ASSumptions in your post. I've come across more sport crags that you can safely rap to the anchors to, than those that are not safe. I suppose they are more common at the 5.8 level. But you seem to have missed the point. At most sport crags you can't really even get to the top of the cliff safely to rap down to the anchors. Get it? No practical access to the top. Jay Yeah, and how many beginners are climbing at the 5.13 level? And no, I don't get it. You are still making a BLANKET statement that is simply not true.
No. I'm not making a blanket statement. Try actually reading what I wrote.
Jay
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rockandlice
Jul 18, 2009, 1:38 PM
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jt512 wrote: No. I'm not making a blanket statement. Try actually reading what I wrote. Jay
jt512 wrote: "You lead the route or walk away." Jay |
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onceahardman
Jul 18, 2009, 2:36 PM
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I think you and jay are talking past each other. You are both making statements about what occurs at "most" sport crags, without substantiating anything.
My assumption about "most" sport crags is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel, rather than on lead. If they are bolted on rappel, there must be a safe way to rap to the anchors, or else the route could not have been rap-bolted.
Of course, access to the top may well involve technical climbing, but still, it must be possible to rap to the anchors, in "most" cases.
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jt512
Jul 18, 2009, 9:27 PM
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onceahardman wrote: I think you and jay are talking past each other. You are both making statements about what occurs at "most" sport crags, without substantiating anything.
I don't know how else to substantiate what I wrote, except to do what I did, which was to post an excerpt from a guidebook introduction which warns that only a few routes can be set up on TR without leading them. This is true at almost every sport crag I've climbed at.
In reply to: My assumption about "most" sport crags is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel, rather than on lead. If they are bolted on rappel, there must be a safe way to rap to the anchors, or else the route could not have been rap-bolted.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. The fact that the developer, usually a highly experienced climber, got down to the anchors once without killing himself, does not imply that the feat can be repeated safely. I have explained why in a previous post.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 18, 2009, 9:29 PM)
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jt512
Jul 18, 2009, 9:33 PM
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rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: No. I'm not making a blanket statement. Try actually reading what I wrote. Jay jt512 wrote: "You lead the route or walk away." Jay
Any idea what those quotation marks mean?
Jay
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onceahardman
Jul 19, 2009, 1:21 AM
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I think you and jay are talking past each other. You are both making statements about what occurs at "most" sport crags, without substantiating anything. I don't know how else to substantiate what I wrote, except to do what I did, which was to post an excerpt from a guidebook introduction which warns that only a few routes can be set up on TR without leading them. This is true at almost every sport crag I've climbed at. In reply to: My assumption about "most" sport crags is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel, rather than on lead. If they are bolted on rappel, there must be a safe way to rap to the anchors, or else the route could not have been rap-bolted. Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. The fact that the developer, usually a highly experienced climber, got down to the anchors once without killing himself, does not imply that the feat can be repeated safely. I have explained why in a previous post. Jay
My premise is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel. A corollary would be that "most" anchors were safely rappelled to at least once. If this action was so dangerous that it could be done safely only once, there would be lots of cases of rap bolters falling to their deaths, plying their craft. Why could one person do a rappel, and not another?
My sympathies to those thousands of families who were not so lucky to have their loved ones' rap-bolt "without killing themselves".
You have argued with me in the past on several substantive points, Jay, but this one is especially silly.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Jul 19, 2009, 1:45 AM)
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bill413
Jul 19, 2009, 2:25 AM
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There are a number of areas I climb at that have a "you lead it to TR it" ethic. Generally it's accepted that if you lead a route, you can rig the TR on a nearby one. NBD. Of course, hopefully you brought along a ropegun.
I was climbing today at a place where you can get to the anchors from the top (either rap, or have a partner lower you...in which case they can belay with fairly minimal anchoring) However, a better way was to lead up an easy route, then traverse a ledge to set the various harder anchors.
If you have to clutch a chickenhead, slither down on your stomach, and tie off the nut tool to rig the anchor, re-examine how you're doing it. Either climb to the anchors, get someone else to do it, or get a partner up there to belay you down to get them set up.
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curt
Jul 19, 2009, 3:28 AM
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: rockandlice wrote: jt512 wrote: Most sport routes are not designed to be safely set up on TR from the top. The anchors are on the face of the climb because they are expected to be clipped on lead. If you want to safely set up a TR, you have to lead the route to do it. Jay Why not just rap down to the anchors are set too far from safe reach? Why not just lead the route? Jay Either because you can't or don't want to. There's plenty of good reasons for not leading a route. GO
Who cares, since sport climbing and top roping are basically the same anyway. 
Curt
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onceahardman
Jul 19, 2009, 12:55 PM
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^^^That's funny!^^^
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onceahardman
Jul 19, 2009, 12:57 PM
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I agree with your post, with one exception:
In reply to: "you lead it to TR it" ethic.
"Ethics" and top-roping/rap-bolting don't really go together. Otherwise, I like your post.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Jul 19, 2009, 12:58 PM)
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bill413
Jul 19, 2009, 2:53 PM
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onceahardman wrote: I agree with your post, with one exception: In reply to: "you lead it to TR it" ethic. . Otherwise, I like your post.
Thanks
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