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ajcarrico
Aug 31, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Every once in a while when I grab my nut biner off my harness and choose a nut to place, some of the nuts will become tangled and open up the gate thus spilling nuts everywhere. Like they way a rope can open a back clipped draw in a fall.
I'm super conscious about this, but every once in a while no matter how careful I think I'm being they decide to go for a ride. I've been using a large key lock solid gate biner for some time now.
Of course this ONLY happens on alpine climbs at least 4 pitches up. (feel free to scour the base of incredible hulk for 1/2 set of bd nuts).
Does anyone have a simple process they go through every time, like shake the biner before deracking it or anything similar? Its only a matter of time before I kill someone by dropping a #12 on their head.
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gmggg
Aug 31, 2009, 7:19 PM
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Which way does your biner face?
You could try clipping it spine out - gate up like a super cool sport climber. That way when you depress the gate to unrack the biner it will hold the nuts in place and your movement will all be in a smooth upward motion.
This is just a guess though as I have never encountered this exact problem. Although I still suck at jostling around a loaded biner with a full set with one hand so what do I know...
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ajcarrico
Aug 31, 2009, 7:27 PM
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I do rack it out gate up. Things don't generally start flying till I've chosen a nut and raised it up to place it. I rack 1 full set (10 nuts) to a biner. I almost never bring any more than that on any climb.
One of my partners said she had the same problem but solved it by just bringing a zillion cams.
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Tipton
Aug 31, 2009, 7:29 PM
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ajcarrico wrote: Every once in a while when I grab my nut biner off my harness and choose a nut to place, some of the nuts will become tangled and open up the gate thus spilling nuts everywhere. Like they way a rope can open a back clipped draw in a fall. I'm super conscious about this, but every once in a while no matter how careful I think I'm being they decide to go for a ride. I've been using a large key lock solid gate biner for some time now. Of course this ONLY happens on alpine climbs at least 4 pitches up. (feel free to scour the base of incredible hulk for 1/2 set of bd nuts). Does anyone have a simple process they go through every time, like shake the biner before deracking it or anything similar? Its only a matter of time before I kill someone by dropping a #12 on their head.
Are you saying you put all the nuts on one 'biner? If so, try splitting up the set across two 'biners. And since dropping them seems to be an issue for you, divide them so there is a variety of small and large on each 'biner so if you do drop some you will still have options.
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gmggg
Aug 31, 2009, 7:32 PM
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ajcarrico wrote: I do rack it out gate up. Things don't generally start flying till I've chosen a nut and raised it up to place it. I rack 1 full set (10 nuts) to a biner. I almost never bring any more than that on any climb. One of my partners said she had the same problem but solved it by just bringing a zillion cams.
Ohh... sounds like the same problems I have then 
I just haven't been unfortunate enough to drop them yet. I have heard the suggestion above (splitting every other nut onto two biners) and I have never tried it. I guess that is a testament to my stupidity, as it is always suggested and praised as a solution to myriad problems.
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saltydog
Aug 31, 2009, 7:42 PM
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make sure nuts are hanging nice, grab nutbiner from rack/harness.
close biner, sort/find/place nut.
unclip biner from nut, hang sling/draw.
replace biner on rack/harness.
seems the "key" is to make sure all other nuts are hanging nicely before each "step", kinda like when you are trying to open the car door with a ring full of 20 keys and two arms full of groceries/BEER....sorta.
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tarsier
Aug 31, 2009, 8:45 PM
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saltydog wrote: seems the "key" is to make sure all other nuts are hanging nicely before each "step", kinda like when you are trying to open the car door with a ring full of 20 keys and two arms full of groceries/BEER....sorta.
Nice analogy. Just do that and be careful. And stop dropping your nuts.
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saltydog
Aug 31, 2009, 8:53 PM
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cracklover wrote: Here's your problem: ajcarrico wrote: I've been using a large key lock solid gate biner for some time now. Never do that ^^^ You're welcome. GO
yes, sometimes a notched biner keeps those buggers from slipping off into the depths...
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skibum14
Aug 31, 2009, 8:56 PM
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Tipton wrote: Are you saying you put all the nuts on one 'biner? If so, try splitting up the set across two 'biners. And since dropping them seems to be an issue for you, divide them so there is a variety of small and large on each 'biner so if you do drop some you will still have options.
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granite_grrl
Aug 31, 2009, 8:56 PM
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saltydog wrote: cracklover wrote: Here's your problem: ajcarrico wrote: I've been using a large key lock solid gate biner for some time now. Never do that ^^^ You're welcome. GO yes, sometimes a notched biner keeps those buggers from slipping off into the depths...
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marc801
Aug 31, 2009, 9:23 PM
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ajcarrico wrote: Every once in a while when I grab my nut biner off my harness and choose a nut to place, some of the nuts will become tangled and open up the gate thus spilling nuts everywhere. Like they way a rope can open a back clipped draw in a fall.
2) Figure out what size nut you need, reach down, remove only that nut from the biner, place nut and clip runner. If you grab just the nut you need and hold it up, the few other nuts slide to the back/bottom of the biner - then you slide selected nut over the gate and pull it off. A little practice allows you to do this one-handed, in one motion.
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the1esteban
Aug 31, 2009, 9:33 PM
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ajcarrico wrote: Every once in a while when I grab my nut biner off my harness and choose a nut to place, some of the nuts will become tangled and open up the gate thus spilling nuts everywhere. Like they way a rope can open a back clipped draw in a fall. I'm super conscious about this, but every once in a while no matter how careful I think I'm being they decide to go for a ride. I've been using a large key lock solid gate biner for some time now. Of course this ONLY happens on alpine climbs at least 4 pitches up. (feel free to scour the base of incredible hulk for 1/2 set of bd nuts). Does anyone have a simple process they go through every time, like shake the biner before deracking it or anything similar? Its only a matter of time before I kill someone by dropping a #12 on their head.
How many times does this happen to you??
It must suck to be your belayer. Hope you don't drop that #12 on their head!
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jorgegonzalez
Aug 31, 2009, 9:52 PM
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I also rack my nuts on two biners, but I don't mix them. I want the small ones on one, the larger ones on another, so that if one doesn't fit I can find the next size up or down on the same biner. That's better than re-racking the biner and pulling out the other one with nuts.
But, its not the method that's important, its the practice at grabbing your gear and managing it that's important. I rack my biners different ways at different times b/c it doesn't much matter (6 of one, half dozen of the other). What matters is that you know how you racked them and that you get familiar with grabbing the right biner with a minimum of movement, making sure to maintain a good grasp as you quickly scan them over and find the right size. Its a question of concentration and confidence, if your stressing and panicky, perhaps you should concentrate on getting better footing to support yourself before you make a mad desperate move for your nut biner. Once you select the right one, put it in your mouth and let the other nuts drop to the bottom, so only the one you want will be facing the rock as you put it in. Then you calmly pull that biner off, re-rack it, and replace it with a draw to put some nylon into the mix allowing the rope to pull up and down without pulling out your piece.
You'll get better with time. Practice at the bottom of the cliffs before you launch off onto lead climbs.
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moose_droppings
Aug 31, 2009, 10:04 PM
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I got two biners for carrying nuts. Neither one comes off my harness when I need one. I rack them with the gate opening out and down. When I need one, I'll slide the loop of the nut to the gate opening and twist the loop so it pops the gate and off slips the nut I need. It's pretty simple with a little practice. I also use a notched gate biner, an oval wiregate to rack wires on.
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mr.tastycakes
Aug 31, 2009, 11:20 PM
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make that a 4th vote for a notched biner.
also, i usually place the nut while it's still on the racking 'biner, then take it off the racking biner. that way if i grab the wrong size I don't have to fumble around putting the nut back on the 'biner.
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sungam
Sep 1, 2009, 12:22 AM
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If you don't put so many on one beaner it's easier to jiggle it about and have them settle without any unclipping.
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notapplicable
Sep 1, 2009, 12:32 AM
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I've found that the notched nose biners snag the wires at all the wrong times and actually cause more fumblings than they prevent. FWIW I've never dropped a nut during the racking/unracking process, dropped a few while placing or cleaning them but not while taking them on or off the biner.
I guess that just highlights the subtle difference between how we all place gear.
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healyje
Sep 1, 2009, 1:42 AM
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Maybe climb easier routes if you're dropping gear that often...?
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ajcarrico
Sep 1, 2009, 4:39 PM
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Yeah I've read the countless "which biner is best for racking nuts" posts and the consensus seems to be that there is no consensus and some like ovals some Ds some notched some not.
Its not that I'm really sketched out when this has happened, but I guess its never happened on no hands rests.
I suppose I'll have to give in and say that 1 set is too much on 1 biner and spread them over two.
Thanks for all the super quick responses guys!
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ptlong
Sep 1, 2009, 5:01 PM
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ajcarrico wrote: I suppose I'll have to give in and say that 1 set is too much on 1 biner and spread them over two.
Go ahead and jump to that conclusion. Maybe one nut per carabiner would be the safest approach. Use auto-lockers.
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marc801
Sep 1, 2009, 5:15 PM
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notapplicable wrote: ...dropped a few while ... cleaning them....
You do leave the nut and sling clipped to the rope while cleaning it, don't you? And then clip it to your harness or gear sling after cleaning and before unclipping the runner from the rope, yes?
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markc
Sep 1, 2009, 5:17 PM
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Having that many nuts per biner may be part of the problem. Half a set (4-5 nuts) per biner seems like a good ratio to me. That way, there's ample room at the ends of the biner for all of the nuts to rest. With 10+, I doubt there's adequate space for them, so they start bunching and interacting with the gate. Also, you may be screwed if you drop that much pro early in a pitch/climb.
I initially put my rack together on the cheap, and rack my nuts on solid-gate ovals. The nuts slide around easily as I unclip from my gear loop, select and place the piece, and then unclip. In some inattentive moments, the notched gate has saved a nut or two. If you're regularly dropping nuts, you might want to give it a go.
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notapplicable
Sep 1, 2009, 6:04 PM
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marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: ...dropped a few while ... cleaning them.... How is that possible? You do leave the nut and sling clipped to the rope while cleaning it, don't you? And then clip it to your harness or gear sling after cleaning and before unclipping the runner from the rope, yes?
Yeah, I do now.
The first one launched in to the abyss when I was first teaching myself to climb on (and clean) gear. Lesson learned.
I know I also fumbled one while placing it off to the side. Not realizing how wide the bottom of the constriction was, I turned it loose to adjust my foot placement and when I looked back it was gone.
There may have been more, those are the two I remember. No worries though, I've bootied more than that in a single day so I've got a few to spare.
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patto
Sep 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
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Guys, guys guys. This aint that hard. You clearly must be doing something WRONG if you need less than 5 nuts per carabiner.
I don't drop my nuts
I carry about 28 nuts when I climb. Two sets of regular nuts (WC and DMM). A set of peenuts and a couple RPs.
I carry them up on only 2 carabiners. So thats about 14 nuts per carabiner.
If you are dropping nuts regularly then you are doing it wrong!
STEP 1. Check nuts are all in bottom bucket of carabiner and then nemove carabiner of nuts off harness.
(impossibile to drop nuts, they all should be in bucket of carabiner while gate is open)
STEP 2. Select nut required, hold it upright and give it a shake. Rest of nuts should drop to bottom of biner. Repeat until this occurs.
(impossible to drop nuts as gate remains shut)
STEP 3. Place nut. Return to step 2 if nut is innappropriate.
(impossible to drop nuts as gate remains shut)
STEP 4. Unclip carabiner from placed nut. (rotate carabiner beforehand if needed)
(impossibile to drop nuts, they all should be in bucket of carabiner while gate is open)
STEP 5. Return carabiner of nuts to harness.
*I use large keylock ovals. This makes carabiner behaviour alot more predictable and easy to shake the nuts into their bucket.
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marc801
Sep 1, 2009, 6:17 PM
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patto wrote: I carry the excessive quantity of them up on only 2 carabiners. So thats about 14 nuts per carabiner.
patto wrote: If you are dropping nuts regularly then you are doing it wrong!
patto wrote: STEP 1. Check nuts are all in bottom bucket of carabiner and then nemove carabiner of nuts off harness. (impossibile to drop nuts, they all should be in bucket of carabiner while gate is open) STEP 2. Select nut required, hold it upright and give it a shake. Rest of nuts should drop to bottom of biner. Repeat until this occurs. (impossible to drop nuts as gate remains shut)
But entirely possible to fumble the biner, dropping not just one nut, but half of your supply.
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markc
Sep 1, 2009, 7:08 PM
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I agree that not dropping your nuts on a regular basis isn't that hard. This is the first I've really heard of someone dropping nuts in such a way, so I'm just theorizing as to the cause. An overly-full biner seems like a candidate, but who knows what the OP is doing?
I carry 10 nuts, a single set of Huevos (4-13). I would personally find keeping all of them on one biner annoying. I can eyeball a crack pretty well, and I don't want to flip through that many biners for each nut placement. You're experienced, and YMMV. It's not a matter of needing less than 5 nuts per biner, it's a matter of how I prefer to rack. Were I carrying 28 biners, I'd probably break them up into at least three biners.
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patto
Sep 1, 2009, 11:58 PM
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You don't know where I climb. Having a double set of wires and micros is considered the norm here. I hardly is an excessive amount. Furthermore most people carry them across two biners.
marc801 wrote: But entirely possible to fumble the biner, dropping not just one nut, but half of your supply.
But each to their own. My system works well for me. I dont drop nuts.
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bill413
Sep 4, 2009, 12:44 AM
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Sorry, but those suggesting lockers (twistlock or otherwise) are probably climbing much more slowly than they should.
I have a set of 9 WC nuts, all racked on a single biner. A season or two ago I switched from a notched gate to a notchless gate for racking them, and feel it was a great change.
I've read the advice on splitting them up in alternation. Sounds good, but I can't always judge a placement +- one size; and my rack is crowded with too many biners already.
I think the only place where I have dropped a nut was after replacing the biner on my rack with some of the wires going up...not sure exactly what happened, but lost one that way. Now I try & always make sure I tug them down after reracking.
As others have said, get the one you want away from all the rest, place it, remove it (keeping the other wires away), rerack, sling, etc. Or, isolate the one you want, remove it, place it, etc.
I sometimes use the placement itself to perform the isolation, other times I use my lips. The big thing is to pay attention to whether or not opening the biner will release just one or several of them.
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Durin
Sep 4, 2009, 7:18 AM
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just looking at El Cap makes both of my nuts drop, every time. I've tried everything. It's just part of climbing.
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Upperlimits
Sep 14, 2009, 5:24 PM
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patto wrote: Guys, guys guys. This aint that hard. You clearly must be doing something WRONG if you need less than 5 nuts per carabiner. I don't drop my nuts I carry about 28 nuts when I climb. Two sets of regular nuts (WC and DMM). A set of peenuts and a couple RPs. I carry them up on only 2 carabiners. So thats about 14 nuts per carabiner. If you are dropping nuts regularly then you are doing it wrong! STEP 1. Check nuts are all in bottom bucket of carabiner and then nemove carabiner of nuts off harness. (impossibile to drop nuts, they all should be in bucket of carabiner while gate is open) STEP 2. Select nut required, hold it upright and give it a shake. Rest of nuts should drop to bottom of biner. Repeat until this occurs. (impossible to drop nuts as gate remains shut) STEP 3. Place nut. Return to step 2 if nut is innappropriate. (impossible to drop nuts as gate remains shut) STEP 4. Unclip carabiner from placed nut. (rotate carabiner beforehand if needed) (impossibile to drop nuts, they all should be in bucket of carabiner while gate is open) STEP 5. Return carabiner of nuts to harness. *I use large keylock ovals. This makes carabiner behaviour alot more predictable and easy to shake the nuts into their bucket.
I do exactly this. Not dropped one yet. I've come close to dropping lots of stuff. It always concerns me to get fumble fingered up there.
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bill413
Sep 14, 2009, 9:39 PM
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The other weekend I was climbing, and had a reminder of how one can drop their nuts (only a reminder of my younger days, fortunately).
When you've sorted through the nuts on a biner, either on your rack/gear loop, or in your hand & clip it back into your rack, some of the nuts may not be hanging down all nice & neat. In fact, some may be riding high on the biner, pointing up in the air, just waiting to drop down & escape when next you open it. So, the prevention is to check that they are all at the bottom of the biner after reracking.
Oh, and this seems to be a little bit more of an issue to me with notched nose biners than key-locks. The notch may catch them on the way out...but it seems to hang them up more when trying to get that wrong sized one back in.
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sungam
Sep 14, 2009, 9:59 PM
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As usual, awareness reduces user error. I've dropped nuts twice. Once as a n00b, and the other time my glove had gotten soaked and froze solid in funky shapes...
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rgold
Sep 15, 2009, 12:53 PM
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Patto's step-by-step instructions are the way most people who remove the entire nut biner do it, but of course there are other methods too. Whatever method you use, in the heat of battle, nuts can get trapped on the gate and sometimes wedge the gate open when you reclip the biner. The result is the mysterious dropping of a piece from your rack while you're climbing.
The chances of dropping increase when you have a lot of nuts on a biner. I agree that 5-6 seems optimal. Oval biners are better than D's, and I think the notch-no notch gate is a wash (I prefer no notch).
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the plastic tubes some nuts have surrounding the loop clipped to the biner. If you need these for identifying the nut, fine, but they get in the way of smooth manipulation, first by taking up more room and second by "sticking" to the biner when you are flipping things around. I think they are best cut off.
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