From Black Diamond's instructions for the ATC Guide: "To belay the seconding climber(s), feed rope(s) into the device with one hand while pulling the slack through the device with the breaking hand (fig. 5). The device will lock if the climber(s) falls. It will still be possible to take in the rope of one climber even if the other had fallen. WARNING - Never take your breaking hand off either rope under any circumstances."

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

It seems to be missed here that the description the belayer provided is not the correct usage, per Black Diamond.


The "pull cord" is supposed to be girth hitched to the little notch on the device, not to the belay carabiner. Someone on Gunks.com asked the belayer if that was really what he did, or a typo, but there has been no response yet.

I find that they can be handy on multi-pitch scenarios where I'm stacking the rope over my attachment strand. It allows me to feed the rope in front of me, which make for easier stacking.

That being said I've never tried to lower off it.

Hmmm...well, I've lowered before and haven't had a problem, but that may be my paranoia about letting it open up too much. Thus, my lowering has been slow.

I'll see if I can try that redirect with the brake strand to see how that works. it still sounds as if there's potential for not being able to control it well, though, but that just may be because my grip is weak.

You beat me to it. To clarify, the above quote is from the section of the manual entitled "Using the ATC–Guide in Guide Mode."

Link to the manual.

Jay

Hmmm...well, I've lowered before and haven't had a problem, but that may be my paranoia about letting it open up too much. Thus, my lowering has been slow.

I'll see if I can try that redirect with the brake strand to see how that works. it still sounds as if there's potential for not being able to control it well, though, but that just may be because my grip is weak.

If you didn't catch it, I attached a file a few pages back with a pdf of a tech tip from climbing magazine that shows a couple of ways to lower with a guide using a redirect and/or a munter hitch. Both of these options work really well and are superior, imo, to trying to control how "open" you let the device get. If you are concerned about your grip (not sure if that was sarcasm), using the munter should be just the ticket.

OK, fine. I won't post here or anywhere else saying that it is safe to temporarily take your hands off the ropes when using an autolocking device to belay a second. ...

I will most likely continue to do this (i.e., put a jacket on or snap a photo while I am belaying a second). However, you have convinced me that I will ask my partners before I do it. I climb with several people that do the same thing, so I will alert them to this ground breaking thread and hope that they too won't stop climbing with me.

I like the Guide, though, over the munter because of the rope twists one can get from a munter. I also like it because I often have to really think before using a munter so as to not confuse it with that other knot one uses to tie in (wow - talk about a brain freeze ).

Have I ever mentioned that you're a gumby?

Jay

no

Then it was an oversight.

Jay

IsayAutumn, subsequent to your posting the above partial rescission of your practice of belaying hands off, Benmoreite posted the following quote from the "Guide Mode" section of the ATC–Guide instruction manual:

"WARNING - Never take your braking hand off either rope under any circumstances,"

which states using the absolute terms "never...under any circumstances," is it permissible to take your brake hand off the rope.

So, having been made aware of this, do you still plan on ever taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

I still don't really understand what happened in the original accident. Does anyone have a diagram?

huh. funny, I thought you couldn't see over anything.

While I agree (of course) that you want people keeping a brake hand on at all times, I can understand ISayAutumn not taking advice from Jay on how to use a Guide.

... Given he's not only never used it, he's able to form opinions about those who do simply based on... what, complete conjecture?

For people that actually would climb with me, the situations under which I have ever taken my hands off the rope have been limited situations, as I described earlier in the thread. I know how this forum works, so obviously I'm not going to try to too hard to change anyone's opinion. So I may as well be honest. Stirring debate and being a pariah isn't all bad.

(1) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode if I needed to get something out of my back pack. I would only do this temporarily and after I had been sure to take in as much slack as possible.

(2) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to throw on a jacket, again after having taken in slack.

(3) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to otherwise do necessary things that would not leave the belay device unattended for more than a few seconds.

(4) Bees.

(5) I would only do this if I could not keep a loop of slack from the brake line in my hand while I am doing any of the above-mentioned things.

Sometimes you just gotta do things, and that's climbing.

Haha. I'll bite...again.

Don't worry Jay. Sounds like we won't be climbing together anyway. You won't deck with me at the helm.

For people that actually would climb with me, the situations under which I have ever taken my hands off the rope have been limited situations, as I described earlier in the thread. I know how this forum works, so obviously I'm not going to try to too hard to change anyone's opinion. So I may as well be honest. Stirring debate and being a pariah isn't all bad.

(1) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode if I needed to get something out of my back pack. I would only do this temporarily and after I had been sure to take in as much slack as possible.

(2) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to throw on a jacket, again after having taken in slack.

(3) I would take my hand off the brake strand of an ATC-Guide in guide mode to otherwise do necessary things that would not leave the belay device unattended for more than a few seconds.

(4) Bees.

(5) I would only do this if I could not keep a loop of slack from the brake line in my hand while I am doing any of the above-mentioned things.

However, I offer this caveat. This is obviously against what BD has put in the instruction booklet for the ATC Guide. But, I believe that this is not inherently unsafe because of the autoblocking mechanism on the ATC Guide. Sometimes you just gotta do things, and that's climbing. I would suspect that there are some other people who have used the device in this manner before. I have personally seen people doing this. I realize that doesn't mean that it is safe, but in this case I believe that it is, at least in the way I've been doing it.

There. I've been honest. Have at me.

[Edited to add another circumstance.]

For all intents and purposes there is a video of it on Black Diamond's website. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the rope could get away from the belayer, by lowering in that manner.

These days I can't see anything, period. I wouldn't have gotten scooped on the warning in the manual if BD had used a font size readable without a magnifying glass.

Jay