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sidepull
Apr 7, 2010, 12:54 AM
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Mandatory apology for any shoe thread: Sorry for another shoe thread.
Mandatory search due diligence: I searched for "comfortable shoe" - pages of stuff on aid and trad. Not what I'm looking for.
Now that that business is out of the way, here's the question: Is it possible to have a comfortable fitting shoe that has a securely fitting heel?
Background: Years ago, I bought into the standard industry logic that "uncomfortable is perfect" (see http://www.madrockclimbing.com/support/ - I'm not saying MR represents the industry, it's just a data point). I had a pair of Boreal Stingers I loved - my feet were just locked in and after a few months of pain, they felt solid. I had a pair of zlippers that I really liked, but they weren't super secure with the heel hooks. I've had pairs of Tenaya's, five.ten's, climbingshoes.com (yep, that used to be a brand) and sportivas. When I size down to uncomfortable, sometimes the shoe stretches to a perfect fit, but often they're just uncomfortable. If I don't size down, the toe box usually fits great, but the heel is sloppy.
Lately, I've bought into the common wisdom on this site that a good shoe is the one that fits. I haven't found a shoe that fits in years. Part of the problem is that the REI's and EMS's of the world don't have any selection, so it's impossible to even try things on. The other part is that I'm just not sure there are shoes that are made to be fairly comfortable and to be able to perform (edge and heel hook). For example, right now I'm wearing the Evolv Defy - good all around shoe, I even climbed Deliverance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCiLINKxrgA - not me) in my Defy's - a problem that requires some pretty nifty footwork (but no heel hooks). I have the same problem with my Evolve talons - a more aggressive shoe I bought specifically for problems where heel hooking would be necessary. I just tried on pairs of 5.10's 5x's and Moccasyms - both felt great in the toe box and baggy in the heel. If I size down anymore then my big toe is bulging past the rand (bad news).
I don't really want to be squishing my feet and growing bunions, but I don't want to feel insecure when heel hooking either. So, is it possible to find a reasonably comfortable shoe that has a secure heel? What shoes work for you that meet this criteria?
(This post was edited by sidepull on Apr 7, 2010, 1:12 AM)
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k.l.k
Apr 7, 2010, 1:02 AM
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sounds like you have a narrow heel. or maybe a wide forefoot (anywhere from e to eewhatever) and regular heel.
i have the same basic problem, it's quite common.
yr best bet is to look for shoes that approximate the shape of yr own foot. sportiva and acopa both offer multiple views of their shoes-- sportiva thru their link on lasts and acopa thru pix.
the testarossa, miura and katana sometimes work for folks with that sort of foot. i've also found that i can fit an acopa merlin to my heel, then trust the soft leather to stretch out in the forefoot. the downside is that they don't last as long, since i have to stretch the rand so far.
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1up
Apr 7, 2010, 1:14 AM
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I have the same problem. If you are looking for a good heel fit for an all around shoe check out the red bandit from evolv. It has a much narrower fit in the heel then the defy but still enough room in the toe box. For size reference I wear a size 11 asic running shoe and a 45 la sportiva running shoe and an 11 in the bandit.
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sidepull
Apr 7, 2010, 3:20 AM
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Yeah, I can see how that heel might work better because of the kind of X where the rands cross. I'm not super psyched about getting a laced shoe though...
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1up
Apr 7, 2010, 3:50 AM
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I know a lot of people that don't like laces because it takes longer to put on and take off. The thing is it takes about 10 secs to put on a shoe with velcro and about 30 sec's to put on or take off shoes with laces.
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markcarlson
Apr 7, 2010, 4:19 AM
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After a half hour of tuning the laces on my Mythos, I was able to tighten up the heel quite well. I'm sure there must be other shoes that have similar features, but I can't think of any off-hand.
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malcolm777b
Apr 7, 2010, 6:53 AM
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I've pretty much always had the same problem as you until I tried the Scarpa Techno. Problem solved.
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ghisino
Apr 7, 2010, 12:31 PM
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I used to have the same problem until i started bouldering a lot more than sport climbing and...well. I've simple got used to wearing my shoes REALLY tight.
i dunno how and why this happened, but trust me i can walk around 15 minutes in sizes that once were a pain in the ass to climb in...
btw, a supertight heel fit is not always necessary for all shoes to work well on all heelhooks.
extremes examples : A narrow and rigid air-tight fit heel is the only thing that would work on some hands-foot face moves on crimpers.
But a slightly baggy heel might perform better than that when compressing on a slopey unfeatured arete, given that it doesn't come off your foot.
perfect example is anasazi blancos. even when supertight the heel fit is far from perfect but hey, on some heel-hooks of some boulder problems, they work much better than my awesome-fitting lasportivas...
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iron106
Apr 7, 2010, 12:41 PM
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Try a womens shoe.
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dudemanbu
Apr 7, 2010, 1:19 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: I've pretty much always had the same problem as you until I tried the Scarpa Techno. Problem solved.
Same problem and +1 for the techno. The mago fit really great for a downturned shoe as well.
It's just a shame they don't have 5.10 rubber.
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kachoong
Apr 7, 2010, 2:11 PM
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sidepull wrote: I don't really want to be squishing my feet and growing bunions, but I don't want to feel insecure when heel hooking either. So, is it possible to find a reasonably comfortable shoe that has a secure heel? What shoes work for you that meet this criteria?
Good post! I have a similar shaped foot and have always had problems with my thin feet and heel. Not living near a climbing store is problematic for me when it comes to the act of trying on shoes to see if they fit.
Lace-ups have always been the best solution so far. I'd also love to find the perfect high performance velcro for my foot, but until I do I will stick with lace-up. The Pontas are OK but haven't had a chance to climb in them, just try them on.
In the past the best shoes I've had were Boreal Aces (a little loose in the heel for me but great shoe), Mythos (nice snug fit) Scarpa Dominators (best fit I've had yet) and the Miuras which I have now (stretching too much though).
malcolm777b wrote: I've pretty much always had the same problem as you until I tried the Scarpa Techno. Problem solved.
Scarpa has been good to me in the past and I'd love to try the Technos. They look like the perfect match. Also the Feroce look decent too and they're velcro.
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lena_chita
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Apr 7, 2010, 2:39 PM
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To me, it seems that "good heel fit + comfort" is possible, but only in non-aggressive (e.i. flat) shoes. This is the reason why I wear 5.10 Sirens. Very comfortable even when sized down, no hot spots, no air pockets, perfectly sized heel that doesn't result in calluses or bunions and stays on very securely for heel hooks, etc.
Obviously, my foot is not your foot, and you said you don't like laces in the first place... but the basic idea, Evolv Defys and Sportiva Mythos seem to fall in the same category-- comfortable, flat, all-around shoes with smaller heel.
IMO as soon as you go to down-turned toe, the heel fit becomes a problem just because of the way the shoe has to be made, to stay down-turned (slingshot rand), the heel cup has to be bigger or else it will simply pop out, and you have to down-size the shoe quite a bit to make the heel cup fit, and that is definitely not comfortable.
There are multiple shoes that I tried that all fit like a dream in the toe box, but suck in the heel (literally, LOL, you know the sucking sound the air pocket makes when you try to heel hook?). The ony one of those that I actually wore for a period of several months was Sportiva Testarossa. LOOOOOOVE the toe box on that shoe. I had it sized reatively big (or, I should say, down-sized minimally), and just accepted that the heel hooks won't be too secure. I have been contemplating getting another pair because it did feel so awesome on overhanging pockets, and maybe even sizing it down properly... but then I look at the ugly heel bunion of someone who does wear them tightly sized, and I get less excited by the idea and postpone it in favor of yet another pair of Sirens... because, really, I cannot point to any specific climb where the shoe was the reason that kept me from making a move.
Sigh... yeah, I wish I could try every shoe on the market. Even in places that carry a good selection, at a first glance, once you get down to nitty-gritty details and eliminate the shoes that obviously don't fit your criteria, it gets down to only a few models, and then it turns out they don't have all the sizes, so you can't compare how half-size up or down compares to what they do have to offer... And some brands-- Red Chili. Millet, etc.- I have never even seen in stores.
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bigjonnyc
Apr 7, 2010, 2:59 PM
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I second the comment about buying women's shoes. The 5.10 Anasazi LV's are a pretty aggressive shoe with a smaller heel cup than standard shoes.
Also, you can just try pairs on until you find the right ones. I know Zappos.com offer free next day shipping and free return shipping which makes it pretty easy to try stuff on that you can't find in a local store. They obviously aren't going to have every shoe on the market, but their selection is surprising.
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ryanb
Apr 7, 2010, 3:57 PM
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I third the comment about a women's shoe. I know several men, including a five ten rep, who climb in either the anasazi lv or women's miura so I would start with one of those and also consider some of the options from scarpa.
I think, for five ten anyways the conversion from men's to women's sizes is +1.5.
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sidepull
Apr 7, 2010, 4:34 PM
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ryanb wrote: I third the comment about a women's shoe. I know several men, including a five ten rep, who climb in either the anasazi lv or women's miura so I would start with one of those and also consider some of the options from scarpa. I think, for five ten anyways the conversion from men's to women's sizes is +1.5.
I like this idea. Unfortunately, according to the websites of 5.10 and Evolv, their women's shoes max out at size 10. I would need a women's 11.5. 
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nkane
Apr 7, 2010, 4:39 PM
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Maybe there's a market opportunity for a downturned shoe with a heel-tightening system like the Mythos or Techno? There's a Millet shoe that has something approaching that feature, but not quite - never tried it on and don't know how it works - http://www.milletusa.com/...p=1&cPath=2_7_40
Students looking for design project ideas - are you listening?
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kachoong
Apr 7, 2010, 4:52 PM
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nkane wrote: Maybe there's a market opportunity for a downturned shoe with a heel-tightening system like the Mythos or Techno? There's a Millet shoe that has something approaching that feature, but not quite - never tried it on and don't know how it works - http://www.milletusa.com/...p=1&cPath=2_7_40 Students looking for design project ideas - are you listening?
Yeah, but better would be a down-turned aggressive velcro or slipper with a heel-tightening feature.
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kaizen
Apr 7, 2010, 5:11 PM
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I have a narrow heel, and wide/wedge shaped foot. I used to have a problem getting any shoes where the heel felt secure. Defy's and Mythos, I would definitely not recommend. In fact, I think Evolv has the worst heels on the market.
If you're looking for a performance shoe, I have found the Testarosa's to be amazing for edging, hooking, and getting onto small pockets and features. I've been using them for awhile, and they are by far the best shoe I have climbed in.
If you're looking for a less aggressive shoe, I would actually check out the Montrail Wasabi's. Unbelievably ugly, but wicked comfortable, with good edging, a fantastic secure heel, and you can get them super cheap (I paid $18 for two pairs, brand new).
Of course, this is my experience as someone with a wide foot and narrow heel, and obviously being able to try them on in a store is vastly better than some strangers review online. Hope this helps.
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sidepull
Apr 7, 2010, 5:12 PM
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kachoong wrote: nkane wrote: Maybe there's a market opportunity for a downturned shoe with a heel-tightening system like the Mythos or Techno? There's a Millet shoe that has something approaching that feature, but not quite - never tried it on and don't know how it works - http://www.milletusa.com/...p=1&cPath=2_7_40 Students looking for design project ideas - are you listening? Yeah, but better would be a down-turned aggressive velcro or slipper with a heel-tightening feature.
I'm not sure that solves the problem. Almost all the shoes I've mentioned feel tight around my achilles tendon, which is what that system would create. But even so, there is still a baggy, dead space at the bottom of the heel that makes heel hooking feel imprecise.
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hafilax
Apr 7, 2010, 5:38 PM
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My theory about problems with all around high-performance but comfortable shoe fit and the whole too small shoe issue is that climbing shoes fit completely differently with the toes pointed than with the toes up and heel down. Drop the heel with my Anasazis and my toes get crunched; point my toes and they pull away from the end and are pain free. Just try pointing your toe in your shoe right now and see if it drags away from the end of your shoe. For steep climbing or heel hooking the toes are generally pointed. For delicate edging and especially smearing the heel is generally down. I don't think that there is a shoe that can excel at both. There has to be a compromise.
For aggressive heel hooking I don't see any way around having shoes that you can't stand around in with current shoe technology.
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sidepull
Apr 7, 2010, 6:01 PM
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I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily want a down-turned last shoe. You should be able to find a neutral shoe that still allows, at the very least, a solid heel. Otherwise all the blather on here about picking shoes based on comfort first is exactly that, blather.
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hafilax
Apr 7, 2010, 7:18 PM
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I just had a brilliant idea. Maybe I should patent it. 
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ghisino
Apr 8, 2010, 9:11 AM
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ah, some comments made me remember that i had a very quick try at an evolv pontas laceup and it seemed an evident case of wide toebox-narrow heel.
even more extreme on the optimus, but that one has a weird rounded shape and...well it is just too evident that it will never perform decently on pockets.
beware most women's shoe have a smaller volume overall, they are great if you have a narrow thin foot all over of if you like to fit your shoes with flat toes, not necessarily if you are just looking for a small heelcup.
(This post was edited by ghisino on Apr 8, 2010, 9:11 AM)
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sidepull
Apr 8, 2010, 12:31 PM
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So let me summarize the thread up to this point - partly because I'm surprised by what seems to be a consensus here and partly in an effort to get the "you can find comfortable high performing shoes" people out of the woodwork.
Here's what i'm hearing: It's hard, unlikely, perhaps even near impossible to find a comfortable shoe with a secure, non-sloppy, non-dead-space-filled heel. Am I misrepresenting the people above? Can people provide disconfirming examples?
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Basta916
Apr 8, 2010, 2:03 PM
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everyones foot is different, what works for me could be a bad choice for other. Acopa Enzo is very comfy and great fit for me. I have three pairs of same shoe, and have to say that I have a definite favorite. One pair fits me better than others ( they are the same size, same model )
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sidepull
Apr 8, 2010, 2:24 PM
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Basta916 wrote: everyones foot is different, what works for me could be a bad choice for other. Acopa Enzo is very comfy and great fit for me. I have three pairs of same shoe, and have to say that I have a definite favorite. One pair fits me better than others ( they are the same size, same model )
I agree, everyone's foot is different. The issue that is getting more frustrating for me is that my foot really isn't that different from average. No morton's toe (which actually isn't that strange), no super high arch, medium width, not super huge (10.5-11). So it seems like there should be a lot of options. I'm wondering if the people that strongly advocating comfortable shoes are doing trad/aid stuff where they might not need to be so precise? Or maybe comfort really isn't that important? Or maybe everyone is lying?
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sidepull
Apr 8, 2010, 2:27 PM
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PS - I'd love to try on Acopa's but they aren't available in brick/mortar stores in MA and they aren't available on Zappos.
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malcolm777b
Apr 8, 2010, 2:47 PM
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sidepull wrote: So let me summarize the thread up to this point - partly because I'm surprised by what seems to be a consensus here and partly in an effort to get the "you can find comfortable high performing shoes" people out of the woodwork. Here's what i'm hearing: It's hard, unlikely, perhaps even near impossible to find a comfortable shoe with a secure, non-sloppy, non-dead-space-filled heel. Am I misrepresenting the people above? Can people provide disconfirming examples?
Ummm...you got recommendations. I made the Scarpa Techno recommendation which is a comfortable shoe with a heel that pulls inward by the lacing system. It performs VERY well.
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Basta916
Apr 8, 2010, 2:49 PM
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If you decide to try Acopa's, here is couple warnings. Do NOT order size smaller. order same size as your street shoe ( even better measure your foot with , whatever they call that foot measure gadget).
Acopa rubber does not last in a gym, so be ready for the resole soon.
Unlined shoes like Enzo will turn your feet Red for a while..
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sidepull
Apr 8, 2010, 3:03 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: sidepull wrote: So let me summarize the thread up to this point - partly because I'm surprised by what seems to be a consensus here and partly in an effort to get the "you can find comfortable high performing shoes" people out of the woodwork. Here's what i'm hearing: It's hard, unlikely, perhaps even near impossible to find a comfortable shoe with a secure, non-sloppy, non-dead-space-filled heel. Am I misrepresenting the people above? Can people provide disconfirming examples? Ummm...you got recommendations. I made the Scarpa Techno recommendation which is a comfortable shoe with a heel that pulls inward by the lacing system. It performs VERY well.
I think the recommendations, so far have been the exception. That said, I've heard consistently bad things about scarpa rubber so I'm hesitant to really consider them.
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hafilax
Apr 8, 2010, 3:45 PM
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I like the Technos. They are my go-to crack and slab shoe. They aren't good for steep climbing or toeing in on holds. Cranking the laces gives a good heel hook but generally heel hooking is a steep climbing thing so they won't be great on the rest of the route. Of course YMMV.
The rubber is a tad on the hard side maybe but really the differences in rubber is splitting hairs IME. Is it ever really the difference between sending and not?
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jbro_135
Apr 8, 2010, 4:04 PM
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Unless you happen to have a foot that fits a particular model of shoe perfectly, there is always going to be a trade-off between comfort and performance. If you size small enough so that there is no dead space anywhere, chances are you are going to have pressure points. If you size for comfort, there is going to be dead space somewhere.
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ghisino
Apr 8, 2010, 4:18 PM
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sidepull wrote: Here's what i'm hearing: It's hard, unlikely, perhaps even near impossible to find a comfortable shoe with a secure, non-sloppy, non-dead-space-filled heel. Am I misrepresenting the people above? Can people provide disconfirming examples?
it all depends on your comfort standards dude!!!
what is sure is that to get airtight heel you need to fit the shoe tight overall.
and that to be "secure" the heel it needs to be at least a bit tensioned, expecially if it is a slipper or a velcro. Your foot will be squeezed between the front and heel rand : until you grow calouses in the right spots it is uncomfortable, no way around it.
that said, if i try out several shoes in the smallest size i can fit them, some are very uncomfortable, others less, and that's a matter of matching foot and shoe shape.
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