Can anyone tell us what happen there?

Thanks

Can anyone tell us what happen there?

Thanks

i also wanted to add that my best thoughts and strongest hopes go out mike and his family for a speedy recovery. and my thanks to the climbers that were there to run info and equipment and carry mike down. it takes many hands to do that.

Well said. My thoughts and prayers are with this climber for a speedy recovery.

This forum and this thread seem to be less obfuscated than that facebook page. There is some noise but it's mosly people putting together what happened.

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...p;highlight=accident

And as far as the armchair analysts' need to "understand what happened"-- well, it is quite simple, really. There are only so many ways you can mess up a system, and you already know about all of them.

Accidents like that have happened before, and will likely happen again, this wasn't a novel way of system failure, there is nothing new to learn.

Every climber and belayer already knows that safety is vitally important, and every climber and belayer could probably do a better job at being safe than they are currently doing. That means you, me, and everyone else.

Just say:
belay failure
clipping failure
tying-in failure
harness failure
rope failure

And all speculation will stop.

While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs.

While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive.

While I respect the family's need to get past this event, they also need to understand our needs. Whenever there is an accident, many of us think "That could have been me. How can I make sure that it won't happen to me."

For many of us, this is our motivation. If anything can be gained from this person's injuries, it may be to prevent it happening to someone else.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I hate politics and believe it or not, even key players on this very site do put things under the carpet at times.

The reality is that that accident happens and climbers do make mistakes. IMO, Every climber in the world has the right to know the detail of each climbing accident cause these sort of information is what keep us alive. learning from others mistake or whatever is not something you want to be conservative on or keep it hidden.

Best Wishes and hang in there Mike! Stay Tough!

--
Since an "Accident and Incident Analysis" is not wanted (and not possible since there is simply no Info) maybe this thread should be locked or moved to general, since this is not an analysis but a get well thread.

That could be arranged, with a couple more votes from people more closely associated with Mike and/or his belayer.

Otherwise, I agree with many others who've already posted here. Every person who's climbed outside a gym more than a handful of times (and even a substantial fraction of gym-only climbers) has a collection of "shit happens," "that could have been bad" or "I'm glad I noticed that before it caused a problem" stories. You can say to yourself, "I'm careful, and so that can't happen to me." You can, but you'd be deluding yourself. Shit happens. To everyone, yourself included.

The family of the injured climber has asked for privacy while he does his best to pull through. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be respected.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?

This is a climbing accident forum and i have the right to ask what I ever I want to know about this accident. if you guys feel that no one should talk about this accident then do not mention anything about this accident till climber is released from hospital.

And please do not take me wrong. I lost three friends in climbing accidents this year and also posted the accident in forum as well.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.

is your goal to have another climber in the hospital cause you do not others to know what happened ?

You have the right to ask. You do not have the right to an answer.

I hate to tell you this, but sometimes shit just happens. No ones fault, and nothing that you can learn from it.

When accident analysis happen people like to assign blame. They figure if they can blame the accident on the belayer, or the climber, or the weather, or whatever they can sit back, relax and say "well, I'll never let that happen to me". The people who have gone through these accidents have to deal with this questioning and the blame, it's not fun. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with it, especially if they're sitting in a hospital just trying get better.

But hey, if you want to make sure accidents like this don't happen to you I suggest you stop climbing. That's the only way to be sure.

well, your opinion is incorrect. no civilian adult has the "right" to interrogate any other civilian adult about where they were and what they were doing, exactly, at any given time.

the climber is still in the hospital. out of respect for his family, we need to be respectful. self-important demands for information are not respectful. people's families really do read this stuff.

and, as always, our continual thoughts and prayers go with mike for his recovery.

My main issue is that on the rrg website there was some "guessing" that basically said it could have been bolt spacing/ground fall potential. As a climber if I knew something of that nature that remained a danger was going undiscussed I would feel terrible.

I guess I give benefit of the doubt to those who were there to believe they would pipe up if it was a danger that persists on that route specifically as opposed to a gerneralized climbing danger.

It is disrespectful and irresponsible to expect that family members or the belayer would have time or energy to expend on anything other than healing the injured climber and healing themselves.

There is no expectation that those close to the incident need to make forums posts.

Though when people come to a forum and make lengthy posts and detail that they know what happened but they aren't telling it is just misguided.

Instead people close to the accident have posted vague descriptions of system failure and it just encourages speculation.

I wonder if the community might benefit from a more anonymized system for reporting the details of incidents or something, because it seems like this conflict comes up perennially.


Get well soon.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?

Mike - I don't know you but I am hoping for the best outcome for you. Best wishes,

People should take a look at the type of people who have responded to this thread - The more experienced climbers have overwhelmingly acknowledged that in climbing (and life) accidents happen. Look up the definition of "accident" - act of God. In this situation there are really just a limited number of possible causes - I'm sure most of you could enumerate them. I highly doubt the cause of this accident has never happened before and will never happen again - all the micro analyzing isn't going to reveal anything new but will lead to hard feelings. Here is a question for all you hand wringers demanding full disclosure - do you try and rehash every automobile accident you see or hear about? Is the only thing that is going to let you live through your commute in MA knowing all the details or a fatality in CA? For everyone of you that gets hurt in a climbing accident therer will be 10 of you that get hurt in a car accident.

well said

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples. I mean, maybe in a "scared straight" sort of way that screws with your head everytime you climb sort of learning example. The best we can do is read our freedom of the hills and be on point everytime we climb. Focusing on accidents and what causes them is negative...it brings negative thoughts. We should focus on what we have control of when it comes to climbing, because that is positive and gives us power. Some things are out of our control...

Except for the youngins/newbs...they should all be forced to watch videos of people making mistakes and the consequences.

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples. I mean, maybe in a "scared straight" sort of way that screws with your head everytime you climb sort of learning example. The best we can do is read our freedom of the hills and be on point everytime we climb. Focusing on accidents and what causes them is negative...it brings negative thoughts. We should focus on what we have control of when it comes to climbing, because that is positive and gives us power. Some things are out of our control...

Well, there are 3 speculations floating around as to what went wrong...
1. Failure to belay. Solution: Find someone who doesn't fail to belay.
2. He skipped a bolt. Solution: Don't skip a bolt.
3. He was going for the fourth bolt and from the logistics of the climb, groundfall is likely when going for the fourth bolt, just because of the position of the bolt and and the way the rockface is leaning. Solution: Don't climb climbs where groundfall is likely?
Alright then. So, Jay, what did you learn.

I would like to again stress that no one is saying there will not be a full analysis of this accident at some point. However, that point is not right now.

There is a current lack of knowledge about what actually took place during the accident. The people who actually have the facts about the accident are currently very occupied with much more important matters.

Again, the family (and the belayer) of the person involved in the accident are simply asking for time and patience as they try to help the injured climber and to heal themselves before dealing with hashing out the details of the accident. That is not an unreasonable request on their part.

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples.

We don't have the information as to what went wrong. Its not available.

I didn't make any conclusions. No one can til we have all of the information. The 3 speculations I listed were discussed on redriverclimbing as possibilities as to what happened, based on the information from one of the rescuers.
There is not always something to be learned from accidents. Sorry. That is not ALWAYS true. Sometimes accidents are preventable, and sometimes they aren't. We are human and prone to error. Its easy for us to sit at our computer and decide that if we know all of the information, we could have made different decisions, and maybe that is true, and maybe next time the accident will be you or me.
No one is witholding information. I think the belayer, who is the one with all of the information at this point, is probably more concerned with his friend than posting on rockclimbing.com to tell us what happened and have jay and majid criticize what happened.