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USnavy
May 20, 2010, 5:55 AM
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Thanks, I appreciate it. I won’t be moving to California until Spring 2011, in which I will be taking a four month climbing vacation before I start school.
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 6:07 AM
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USnavy wrote: Thanks, I appreciate it. I won’t be moving to California until Spring 2011, in which I will be taking a four month climbing vacation before I start school.
2011, my wife and I are spending that summer in Europe. With a four month vacation, I recommend you climb across South East Asia. Would be cheap and some excellent climbing there too.
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majid_sabet
May 20, 2010, 6:13 AM
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Purcell prussic is the ultimate substitute for daisy. its been drop tested and a number one choice among SAR riggers. for $10 ( 10 meter of 7 mm cord) you got yourself a pair of adjustable daisy made. you can also use them in aid climbing as aiders, for anchor and whatever in between.
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 7:44 AM
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I have to ask myself, why do I waste time here.
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dingus
May 20, 2010, 12:41 PM
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guangzhou wrote: dingus wrote: He lives where he's told to live, lol. DMT Still seems strange, a climber joining the Navy. Seems like it would interfere to much. Even when I did my time, I decided te Navy life would be detrimental to my climbing, so I decide on the Army instead.
I dunno bro. I know a retired chief who actively climbed his whole career. He got to climb in places like Waddi Rum and other exotic spots.
Retired in his 40s or some such, to an idyllic locale where he can climb virtually every day.
One has to be 'suited' (hehe) for a military career though. It wasn't for me. I don't suffer orders from morons, very well. Don't mind em from smart and honorable folk, however. But in the military you don't get to choose your boss.
I'm glad, personally, for the USNavy's of the world, despite my criticism of this one's noobie ways. I like the dude.
I spent a few months taking training on a Navy base, in Chicago of all places. I got in trouble with the system. A Navy Petty officer, who was also a climber btw, worked very hard to 'save my ass.' I never forgot that.
DMT
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cfnubbler
May 20, 2010, 2:29 PM
Post #83 of 124
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USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: dingus wrote: A lot of young climbers have had a HUGE disservice played on them via a lot of modern climbing how-to guides, gym training and what have you. A huge disservice. Cordelette, equalettes, PAS, daisies, all in this urge to avoid using the climbing rope as part of a belay. RC.COM has been at the forefront of this regrettable trend. Lose the gimmicks people. Learn to use the rope. Throw away your gumby tethers and your equalizing knots that don't equalize a damn thing. Stop paying money for inferior solutions when you already have the better choice - YOUR ROPE. Or don't. whatever. DMT Most beginners will spend a good amount of time starting out top roping. Some people never move beyond top roping. How do you use your climbing rope to set up a top rope anchor? After that they may start getting into sport climbing, single pitch sport climbing. When they get to the top and are staring at a set of chains, how do they use their rope to hold their weight while they rig the same rope for lowering or rapping? Even if they actually get into multi-pitch climbing there is a good chance that it will be one person leading and the other partner following (i.e. boyfriend and girlfriend). When the leader rigs the first pro anchor and knows that he will be leading the next pitch as well how do you rig your anchor using just the rope? Dingus, I know you're a hard-climbing, first-ascending, mutli-pitching badass and I hope I could meet and climb with you some day, but I can't necessarily agree with you that cordelettes and PAS's and such are such a disservice. They have their places and there are times when they may not be the best option but they work just fine. Just my two cents. Anyway, its not the device or technique I take issue with... its the presentation of the ONE TRUE WAY. Witness USNAVY response, green behind the ears, one or two (literally) multipitch routes under his belt, confident in his TRUTH simply because he doesn't know any better. DMT Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
Wow, nearly 100 multipitch lines? Seriously? I guess you really are speaking from a vast wealth of experience then.
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majid_sabet
May 20, 2010, 5:05 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I have to ask myself, why do I waste time here.
Generally after page 4, things become entertaining as some n00b starts to piss off Royal's climbing partner here and then we got a full blown show so keep it cool and relax, we are almost there.
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norushnomore
May 22, 2010, 9:51 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: rgold wrote: When connecting to anchors when the climbing rope is not available, tethers such as the nylon Sterling Chain Reactor are useful. Why anyone would use the Metolius PAS, which breaks under a factor-2 fall, when an equivalent item is available that does not break and costs less, is a total mystery to me. Worth repeating, since nobody apparently saw it the first time. if you're gonna use a tether, use a nylon one.
Well, usually I do agree with rgold but I will back USNavy here.
I was the guy who sent Sterling Jim a couple of PASes to test a few years back. What I hoped he could do is test a combo anchor of a rope and a PAS as this is how I use it most of the time.
Instead he tested FF2 on the PAS along and it broke.
Is it a practical info? I don't know, no harness to stretch, no human body to give.
Well, I did get a chain reactor (CR) ... and gave it away after a little bit. It's much bulkier and heavier and shorter like the PAS first gen and that was not working for me.
And now how about a counter point:
What if you are using CR as your only anchor and you are belaying thru it and catch FF2?
Well, CR will fail and PAS will not. How likely is the above scenario? May be even more likely than a theoretical FF2 onto CR
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acorneau
May 22, 2010, 1:22 PM
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norushnomore wrote: And now how about a counter point: What if you are using CR as your only anchor and you are belaying thru it and catch FF2?
That's simple: don't ever put yourself in that situation.
Put the leader's rope through one of your anchor points so you never have to catch that FF2 directly on you.
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camhead
May 22, 2010, 3:02 PM
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dingus wrote: USnavy wrote: dingus wrote: rgold wrote: It is part of a general trend to replace judgment, skill, and practice with engineering. This isn't necessarily bad if it works, but it doesn't because the margins of safety needed to make engineering work can't be achieved in climbing with gear a climber can actually carry. KISS principle has been abandoned by large droves of climbers who should know better. DMT Accept tying in with a PAS and two biners is more simple then building an anchor with the rope.  Accept you have no experience and nothing to offer on this topic. DMT
Clipboard says: ZING!
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camhead
May 22, 2010, 3:19 PM
Post #88 of 124
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Wow, your ignorance really precedes you. I have climbed near 100 multi-pitch lines including the longest and only grade V sport climb in North America and a R rated grade III+ 5.11d. Soon I will be adding El Cap to my tick list as well. Enough with the "your a noob" bullshit, your what, 40? 45? Please...
[Jeff Foxworthy] If you have to spray about climbing Timewave Zero as an example of your multipitch expertise... YOU MIGHT BE A NOOB![/Jeff Foxworthy]
Seriously, what constantly amazes me about USNavy is that he switches back and forth from posts like this where he hams up his extensive experience, to posts where he asks about "the best food for a bigwall" and for advice on basic crack technique.
And overall, I'm with Dingus. I've used daisies, I've used cordalettes, but now, on the rare occasions that I climb multipitch, I just tie in with the rope.
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hafilax
May 22, 2010, 7:50 PM
Post #89 of 124
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Did an 8 pitch climb as a party of three last weekend and thought I'd try out the PAS I got for Xmas. Probably tied in with a clove hitch half the time and used the PAS the other half
It had it's moments. It simplified rope management a bit with cycling through 3 leaders. Had a couple of tug-of-wars with the belayer trying to get the clove hitch undone. Some of the good 3rd person stances were too far from the anchor to use the PAS. It was most useful when I had to sling the pack below me in a squeeze chimney. It also came in handy slinging a big tree for an anchor. I didn't find it getting in the way too much.
I won't carry it on every climb but it has its uses. Probably when in a party of 3, leading in blocks, or when there is lots of rappelling. I would have preferred a chain reactor but I haven't seen any in BC and wouldn't order one. Definitely easier to use than a daisy with the big loops and you can stow it away quite nicely by clipping all of the loops into a biner.
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rgold
May 22, 2010, 8:54 PM
Post #90 of 124
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And now how about a counter point:
What if you are using CR as your only anchor and you are belaying thru it and catch FF2?
This should never happen. If you are belaying, you have the rope, and it should be rigged so that it is your energy absorber.
Well, CR will fail and PAS will not.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe this. Could you explain, and point me to the appropriate test results?
How likely is the above scenario?
For anyone who understands anchoring, the above scenario will never happen.
May be even more likely than a theoretical FF2 onto CR
No way in my experience.
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sethg
May 22, 2010, 8:56 PM
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I don't get the whole PAS thing. I tie in with the rope, and when I'm setting up a rappel I connect myself to the anchor with a sling. The last thing I need is to carry some other pointless piece of equipment. I just don't see any advantage to it at all.
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milesenoell
May 22, 2010, 10:59 PM
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guangzhou wrote: ... sometime nothing. (Pinch the rope, pull through anchor, knot on a bite, clip to harness untie original knot and lower)
Excuse my noobishness, but isn't this (what I know as a pass-through) the standard method? Until you mentioned it I started to wonder If I was the only one doing this. Sure, it is good to also use a secondary connection (although I feel like anything in the runner/draw family is sufficient) but done normally you are never even relying on it as a primary line of protection.
Edited to add: actually on second look I do it a little differently. Since most chains won't accept a bight of the big fat rope I usually use, it goes like this: Pinch the rope, pull through anchor, knot on a bite, clip to harness, untie original knot, thread the chains, tie in, unclip and remove knot on a bight, and lower
(This post was edited by milesenoell on May 22, 2010, 11:13 PM)
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norushnomore
May 23, 2010, 9:49 AM
Post #93 of 124
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rgold wrote: And now how about a counter point:
What if you are using CR as your only anchor and you are belaying thru it and catch FF2? This should never happen. If you are belaying, you have the rope, and it should be rigged so that it is your energy absorber. Well, CR will fail and PAS will not. I'm sorry, but I don't believe this. Could you explain, and point me to the appropriate test results? How likely is the above scenario? For anyone who understands anchoring, the above scenario will never happen. May be even more likely than a theoretical FF2 onto CR No way in my experience.
It's simple, FF2 thru the anchor will gen 10kN + 6kN (or so) 16kN on the anchor, CR is only rated 12Kn
Anyone who understands anchoring will not be trying FF2 onto PAS, just as you are reasoning above
Bottom line the two are not the same, one is the real anchor and the other is the tether.
Have you tried untying your anchor knots on your main rope after FF2? Sure? I did and I am using PAS that you simply unclip no matter how hard was the fall.
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rgold
May 23, 2010, 11:50 PM
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Hmm...I didn't understand Norushmore's scenario:
Climber with a rope
1. fails to anchor with it, anchoring instead with the PAS,
2. then redirects the leaders belay through a loop of the PAS.
As likely as a factor 2 fall on a tether? Not in the universe I inhabit. This is veering off into fantasy-land and is far from any useful point I might have made.
As for untying the anchor knot (a clove hitch) in the rope after holding a factor two fall, been there and done that---no problem.
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norushnomore
May 24, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Hey, at least you see my point, now we are only disagreeing on the likeness of the scenario.
Well lets push this forward, including your clove hitch that you had no issues to untie.
Obviously your belay was not redirected or redirected but not thru the anchor. Otherwise you would have to tie something else but the clove hitch. So much for this argument.
And now, while we have quite a few advocates of making an anchor with the rope we have just as many recommending otherwise for the ease of escaping belay among other reasons.
In my experience PAS strikes a nice balance of being much less bulkier then cordelette but providing most of the same benefits. Cannot do that with CR, sorry.
CR is not even as strong as a plain old nylon sling you can buy for 3 bucks. It's a glorified tether that costs 30 dollars and is mostly useless except for anchoring yourself to the rock while rapping down.
Granted, you will be very safe if you get bored waiting for you partner to free the rope and decide to scramble up and take a test FF2 fall on your fancy tether.
Got to say though I am a bit disappointed by the fantasy land comment, that was a bit elitist,
doctor gold.
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bill413
May 24, 2010, 5:39 PM
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norushnomore wrote: And now, while we have quite a few advocates of making an anchor with the rope we have just as many recommending otherwise for the ease of escaping belay among other reasons. In my experience PAS strikes a nice balance of being much less bulkier then cordelette but providing most of the same benefits. Cannot do that with CR, sorry.
Escaping the belay? How, with a PAS/CR girth hitched to your harness can you escape?
(*edit to fix cheesetit*)
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 25, 2010, 12:53 PM)
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sethg
May 24, 2010, 10:47 PM
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You're not making sense, at least to me.
I think you may be talking about building the anchor itself with the rope vs. a PAS vs. a CR. I don't think anyone else is talking about doing this.
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NEGuiding
May 26, 2010, 12:50 AM
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NEGuiding
May 26, 2010, 12:55 AM
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guangzhou
May 26, 2010, 1:28 AM
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NEGuiding wrote: Ditch the daisy chain dude What are you tied to? The CLIMBING ROPE! So use it, Clove hitch, so simple and most common and recommended/taught by the AMGA. I've been trad climbing for a long time and I have never even purchased a daisy chain haha! They're only designed for static loading of body weight anyway. 
AMGA doesn't teach specific skills like use the clove hitch only. As a professional member of the organization for over a decade now, I appreciate that they don't force one way over another on my guiding.
Actually, the reason I support AMGA is that they don't force one specific method over another on guides that choose to get certified. I don't believe in across the board certification for guides under their system.
As for hanging from a clove hitch, how do you do this when cleaning a sport route. I don't use a daisy personally, but I have. I've also used QD, Slings, and cord. They is no one way to do things in climbing.
When I teach someone to clear a sport belay, I focus on them being clipped to both bolts. I also remind them to keep the rope clipped to them at all times in case they drop it. What equipment they use to anchor themselves is up to them. Loads of options. Some like the comfort of a daisy. My wife likes her daisy when we do long multi-pitch rappels. Easier for her to adjust. Not sure I would hang on a clove hitch and be efficient in a multi-pitch scenario.
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