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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 3:25 AM
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Rgold. Most of us are not blessed with literally thousands of G rated climbs that take natural gear. Always have had a problem with gunkis telling the rest of us that we have to climb a certain way.. maybe you should tell Ed Webster, Kurt Winkler, George Hurly, John Sykes, etc. Etc. Etc that all those bolts and pins they placed were unethical and that we sould just run it out all the time up here in VT and NH?
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dr_feelgood
Jul 9, 2010, 3:26 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Rgold. Most of us are not blessed with literally thousands of G rated climbs that take natural gear. Always have had a problem with gunkis telling the rest of us that we have to climb a certain way.. maybe you should tell Ed Webster, Kurt Winkler, George Hurly, John Sykes, etc. Etc. Etc that all those bolts and pins they placed were unethical and that we sould just run it out all the time up here in VT and NH?
epic namedrop!
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dr_feelgood
Jul 9, 2010, 3:27 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not? How full of shit can you possibly be?
I predict that JT makes fun of your spelling.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 3:29 AM
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Jay, while you are at it whats up with all your bolts? why don't you just wait for someone stronger to come allong and do your climbs without bolts?
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wmfork
Jul 9, 2010, 3:29 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not? |
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 3:33 AM
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What a load of complete bullshit. Go to rumny and you will see gobs of bolts right next to big fat cracks. Heck, sport climb just about anywhere and you will find bolts near gear placements. Go trad climbing just about anywhere and you will run into pins and bolts. Even in places like Seneca and the gunks.
Speaking of the Gunks, has that pin on P2 of Roseland ever been replaced? that flared chimney is the actual crux INMOP even though all the weinies these days just do the 1st pitch. last time i was there about 10 years ago it looked like the same pin that was a relic back in the eightys....
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jul 9, 2010, 4:03 AM)
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rgold
Jul 9, 2010, 4:22 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Rgold. Most of us are not blessed with literally thousands of G rated climbs that take natural gear. Always have had a problem with gunkis telling the rest of us that we have to climb a certain way.. maybe you should tell Ed Webster, Kurt Winkler, George Hurly, John Sykes, etc. Etc. Etc that all those bolts and pins they placed were unethical and that we sould just run it out all the time up here in VT and NH?
The idea that NH is lacking in a large number of climbs protectable with passive gear is news to me. Can't speak for VT. In any case, many of the climbs I had in mind are not in the Gunks, and my comments have nothing to do with the climbing area closest to my house.
Moreover, the Gunks have many hundreds of climbs that require a combination of intricate protecting skill and highly controlled climbing strategy, any one of which might easily fit your description of a piece of crap requiring a pin or a bolt.
As for the Dropped Names, many of those people were active before the changeover to clean climbing, and the gear they placed predates what might have been called the modern approach, except that approach seems to be increasingly relegated the UK (imagine what would have happened to gritstone if T-man's attitudes prevailed) and the Eastern European countries.
Were the Dropped Names unethical? The idea that ethics is involved at all is a conceit climbers need to get over. The world is awash in serious ethical issues. Whether or not a bolt or pin is placed has nothing to do with ethics. We are speaking about some arbitrarily adopted rules of the game, rules that evolved during the period the Named Ones were active. No one would suggest they held to these rules retroactively.
The arbitrariness of the rules doesn't mean that they aren't important, even critically important. All of climbing involves the voluntary renunciation of available means. Without that renunciation, there is nothing. So what we agree to give up is the defining essence of the sport.
I find the idea that the protection isn't good enough highly problematic. Not good enough for who? If the climb is 5.2, does it need a piton or bolt next to a run-out 5.2 move? What about 5.5? Folks that essentially insist every climb has to be made PG or G talk about doing something for the climbing community, which apparently does not include anyone who is interested in the mental and physical challenges posed by less well-protected routes. They don't seem to count.
Rather than a complex morass of individual subjective judgments about what is or is not too risky, it seems so much better to say that trad climbing is about dealing with what nature provides. Start at the bottom, arm yourself with whatever trinkets modern technology has developed, and either succeed or back off. Nothing could be simpler or clearer.
The climb in question is a 50 foot route with a potential factor-0.7 fall with gear in a perfect parallel-sided crack. T-man himself has acknowledged that if multiple pieces can be placed, no fixed gear is "needed," which is really the only point I originally had in mind.
So if this isn't a "crack" but rather a "hole" that will only fit a single blue alien or equivalent-sized ballnut, then I say back off and leave the route as is. Maybe in two years there will be a stronger piece for that crack. Maybe someone will come along who can move up and down and wire the crux on the lead without ever exposing themselves to a long fall on the single piece. Aren't we "stealing" the route from that person?
If the need to climb this particular 50 foot stretch of rock is intense, then top-rope it.
I have no illusions that anyone from VT or anywhere else will pay the slightest attention to any of these points.
Added in edit: I might add that I have continually suggested that fixed pins in the Gunks that weather out, fall out, are tested and removed, or break NOT be replaced. Many ciimbs would not be much different, but there are some that would change substantially. So be it---they are in the state nature intended.
No one will be surprised to hear that whenever I have suggested this I am most heartily shouted down.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 9, 2010, 4:33 AM)
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cantbuymefriends
Jul 9, 2010, 7:54 AM
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OK, enough of this!
I'm NOT gonna place fixed gear, bolts or otherwise, on this route!
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cantbuymefriends
Jul 9, 2010, 9:10 AM
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jt512 wrote: You can use this calculator to compute the theoretical impact force on your gear. FWIW, you'll see that the theoretical impact force is close to the rated strength of the blue Alien. Based on that, I would not trust even a perfectly placed Alien to hold a fall. However, you have said that the green Alien just barely doesn't fit. That means that you will probably not be able to get an optimal blue Alien placement: halve the rated strength. Now the theoretical impact force is nearly double the likely strength of the placement. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. Furthermore, where have you been for the last two years? Have you slept through Aliengate? Enough failures of Aliens under little more than body weight loads have occurred to cast doubt on every Alien in the field. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. Furthermore, where have you been the last twenty years? Hasn't anyone mentioned to you the rule of thumb never to have only one piece of gear between you and death? That's one piece of any gear, never mind a micro cam, never mind a micro cam with a history of grave manufacturing defects. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. So, there you go, four reasons not to trust the Alien. Jay
#2. I later said that the green is prolly 2-3 mm too big. Minimum size of the Blue is 4 mm smaller than the Green. 2 mm is less than 1/3 of the (theorethical) expansion range. In a good crack in solid rock, do you think that's too much? (honest question.)
#3. Me and my friends must've gotten our Aliens in the pre-Effed-up era. 
#4. Aw, come on Jay! Like you've never climbed an R-rated route in your life... 
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 12:14 PM
Post #61 of 116
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R gold, you are setting on a pretty high horse over there in the gunks. You step out your front door and you have literally thousands of gear protected climbs.
There are maybe 100 climbs in Central VT. If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act. No! you guys just itching to go climbing today if you can't hack 5.9X then go home you sissies... there are 3 other climbs over there with long lines on them that you can play on. this climb is to prove what a bad ass I am and secure my legacy What a load of crap!
You want to talk NH? How often would didre get climbed without a pin at the crux? Should the prow be eradicated? The last Unicorn a travesty?
Heck, remove bolts and pins from Cathedral and White horse and you lose 50% of your climbs.. do the same thing at the gunks and you still have a thousand climbs to play on....
Just annother case of the Haves telling the have not's how to live
Whatever.... Pleanty of room down there in the gunks for completly clean climbs and you only have to pay $15.00 a day to get on them and you stand a good chance of being robbed in the process.
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dr_feelgood
Jul 9, 2010, 12:25 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: R gold, you are setting on a pretty high horse over there in the gunks. You step out your front door and you have literally thousands of gear protected climbs. There are maybe 100 climbs in Central VT. If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act. No! you guys just itching to go climbing today if you can't hack 5.9X then go home you sissies... there are 3 other climbs over there with long lines on them that you can play on. this climb is to prove what a bad ass I am and secure my legacy What a load of crap! You want to talk NH? How often would didre get climbed without a pin at the crux? Should the prow be eradicated? The last Unicorn a travesty? Heck, remove bolts and pins from Cathedral and White horse and you lose 50% of your climbs.. do the same thing at the gunks and you still have a thousand climbs to play on.... Just annother case of the Haves telling the have not's how to live Whatever.... Pleanty of room down there in the gunks for completly clean climbs and you only have to pay $15.00 a day to get on them and you stand a good chance of being robbed in the process.
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cantbuymefriends
Jul 9, 2010, 2:15 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: R gold, you are setting on a pretty high horse over there in the gunks. You step out your front door and you have literally thousands of gear protected climbs. There are maybe 100 climbs in Central VT. If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act. No! you guys just itching to go climbing today if you can't hack 5.9X then go home you sissies... there are 3 other climbs over there with long lines on them that you can play on. this climb is to prove what a bad ass I am and secure my legacy What a load of crap! You want to talk NH? How often would didre get climbed without a pin at the crux? Should the prow be eradicated? The last Unicorn a travesty? Heck, remove bolts and pins from Cathedral and White horse and you lose 50% of your climbs.. do the same thing at the gunks and you still have a thousand climbs to play on.... Just annother case of the Haves telling the have not's how to live Whatever.... Pleanty of room down there in the gunks for completly clean climbs and you only have to pay $15.00 a day to get on them and you stand a good chance of being robbed in the process.
However, you don't know what "my" area here is like. And let's just say there are reasons I don't want to put fixed gear up there. Okay?
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wmfork
Jul 9, 2010, 2:36 PM
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cantbuymefriends wrote: However, you don't know what "my" area here is like. And let's just say there are reasons I don't want to put fixed gear up there. Okay?
If it's 2mm of difference, the red C3 probably wouldn't fit either. I wouldn't sweat over the rated strength difference between the zero and alien, choose the one that fits better (and choose the zero if you can't quite orient the cam in the direction of the fall, as the stem is flexible all the way to the axle). Or place them both if possible. Good luck!
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rgold
Jul 9, 2010, 2:36 PM
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tradmaclimbs wrote: If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act.
So anyone who happens to do an X-rated route is selfish? Wow---wanna talk about a long list of names to drop! The existence of an enormous number of X-rated "classic lines" on Grit must make British climbers the most self-centered group of people in the world.
In any case, I made a clear argument that it isn't about ego. Nature made the route what it is. Ego only enters when we start to change that under the presumption that we, together with some unspecified community that we assume we can speak for, is entitled to something nature did not provide.
Moreover, X-rated routes are at the extreme end of the spectrum, and rules can and will be bent. There are and will always will be gray areas, no matter what set of principles one adopts.
So more to the point are, say, R-rated routes, is it selfish to establish them? What about PG-rated routes, selfish too? At what point does a bolt or piton become "necessary" for the "community," and what "community" are we speaking of---is there really a single monolithic thing whose "needs" are all that clear? Is it not just as egotistical to pretend to speak for everyone?
Speaking of the community and its needs, if a little chipping could reduce a 5.14 route to 5.12, is it not egotistical to leave such an exclusionary route in existence?
I'm well aware of just how much of a minority position this has become. I'm also aware that the arguments I've made are rarely addressed. Instead, direct or indirect ad hominem attacks are mounted.
For better or worse, climbers have decided that they are entitled (to use the term a second time) to a "safe" communal experience, and nowadays there is technology that allows us to make that happen with relative ease. I predict it is only a matter of time before T-man, whose passion and sincerity I do not doubt, finds himself on the other side of this argument.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 3:43 PM
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cantbuymefriends wrote: jt512 wrote: You can use this calculator to compute the theoretical impact force on your gear. FWIW, you'll see that the theoretical impact force is close to the rated strength of the blue Alien. Based on that, I would not trust even a perfectly placed Alien to hold a fall. However, you have said that the green Alien just barely doesn't fit. That means that you will probably not be able to get an optimal blue Alien placement: halve the rated strength. Now the theoretical impact force is nearly double the likely strength of the placement. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. Furthermore, where have you been for the last two years? Have you slept through Aliengate? Enough failures of Aliens under little more than body weight loads have occurred to cast doubt on every Alien in the field. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. Furthermore, where have you been the last twenty years? Hasn't anyone mentioned to you the rule of thumb never to have only one piece of gear between you and death? That's one piece of any gear, never mind a micro cam, never mind a micro cam with a history of grave manufacturing defects. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien. So, there you go, four reasons not to trust the Alien. Jay [ . . . ] #2. I later said that the green is prolly 2-3 mm too big. Minimum size of the Blue is 4 mm smaller than the Green. 2 mm is less than 1/3 of the (theorethical) expansion range. In a good crack in solid rock, do you think that's too much? (honest question.)
With medium to large cams, the middle of the expansion range is solid; with small cams it often is not: Because the margin for error is so small, individual lobes may nearly be tipped out, compromising the placement. Therefore, the best placements for small cams are generally ones in which the cam is nearly fully contracted.
In reply to: #4. Aw, come on Jay! Like you've never climbed an R-rated route in your life...
Your original question wasn't whether I would climb the route, if the only pro were a marginal Alien; it was whether I would trust the marginal Alien. Whether I would trust the pro and whether I would climb above the pro if I didn't trust it are different questions. Regarding the trust question, if we phrase it like this: "Would I trust my life to a single, sub-optimally placed small cam manufactured by a company with a notorious history of selling defective gear?" the answer kind of jumps out at you. Whether I would climb above such gear comes down to whether I thought I'd have to actually trust my life to it. If I were confident that I wouldn't fall, then I might go ahead and climb; if not, then I'm backing off the lead. If I could get a toprope on the route, I might go for a headpoint.
Jay
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johnwesely
Jul 9, 2010, 4:10 PM
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rgold wrote: So anyone who happens to do an X-rated route is selfish?
Yes, they are. I can't possibly think of any altruistic reason to put up an X-rated line outside of some highly improbable rescue situation. That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Our imaginary first ascentionist shouldn't feel the need to invest the time, money, and effort into sanitizing a line. In fact, I can't think of anything more selfish than expecting him to do so.
On the other hand, we have an imaginary route "developer" primarily concerned with making routes "safe" for others. This guy makes it a point to put up G and PG routes up lines far under his technical limit. This climbers actions are ostensibly more selfish than the first climbers, but that does not make them necessarily better.
Maybe I am being naive, but its foolish to demonize either of these climbers. The bold climber has the right to put up daring test pieces, and by and large, these climbs should stay this way. As far as I can tell, there is no region that has no well protected climbs because bold climbers did what bold climbers do. There might be crags or even small areas that are devoid of "safe" moderates, but no one is forced to climb at these places. North Carolina is a prime example of a region were some cliffs are completely out of bounds for all but the doughtiest leaders, but still many more cliffs remain were well protected moderates are abound. In an area with far more limited climbing options, I could see where such bold development could breed contention, especially when climbs at the FAs limit feature generous amounts of fixed gear. I guess that I am being egotistical here, but I think that it is in the climbing "community's" best interest that there is as great variety as possible in terms of protection. I don't think that there is anything wrong with fix gear when used judiciously, and I also don't think there is anything wrong with a section of run out climbing.
I was attempting to address your points. I am not sure that it came out as clear as I would have liked.
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dynosore
Jul 9, 2010, 7:55 PM
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Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS.
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johnwesely
Jul 9, 2010, 8:53 PM
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dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS.
Are you referring to me?
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 9:01 PM
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johnwesely wrote: dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS. Are you referring to me?
Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt.
Jay
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johnwesely
Jul 9, 2010, 9:12 PM
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jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS. Are you referring to me? Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt. Jay
That can be a very difficult distinction to make.
I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy.
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wmfork
Jul 9, 2010, 9:26 PM
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johnwesely wrote: I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy. |
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dugl33
Jul 9, 2010, 9:28 PM
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wmfork wrote: johnwesely wrote: I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy. Man I can't seem to get myself a bolt gun (hangs head in shame).
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scottek67
Jul 9, 2010, 9:44 PM
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johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS. Are you referring to me? Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt. Jay That can be a very difficult distinction to make. I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy.
bolt gun = A mythical rock climbing implement featured in the movie Cliffhanger (quoted from wikipedia)
http://www.google.ca/...&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAw
click on "see full size image"
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johnwesely
Jul 9, 2010, 10:02 PM
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scottek67 wrote: johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS. Are you referring to me? Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt. Jay That can be a very difficult distinction to make. I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy. = A mythical rock climbing implement featured in the movie Cliffhanger (quoted from wikipedia) http://www.google.ca/...&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAw click on "see full size image"
It is very clearly not a myth. How do you think those bolts get up there?
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