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blueeyedclimber


Aug 16, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Signal to Noise
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After the recent drama between adatesman, management, and others (who shall not be named), something was brought up that I was curious about.

I can't remember who said it, but a point was made about long time, knowledgable climbers don't bother to post on here any more. With the exception of rgold, I am not sure that is incorrect. There are a whole lot of n00bs, trolls and gumbies, but I have to believe that there is also a large collection of climbers who contribute to quality content here on rc.

I have intentionally mentioned rgold and left out other long time climbers who are just as well known, because unlike them, each of rgold's post are with the intention of being helpful.

What I would like to know is twofold. How long have you been climbing?(if you have been climbing x amount of years but you only go once in a while, let that be known) and what percentage of your posts you believe to be helpful, of good quality and relevant to actual climbing threads?

I have no interest in your number of weird campground posts, inflammatory soapbox posts or other such drivel you create to up your post count.

I will start: Climbing 8 1/2 years. Although I like the witty and sarcastic remarks as much as the next guy, I prefer to be involved in informative, well thought out, climbing threads. I am going to be conservative and say that about 60% of my posts are quality (at least I hope so).


IsayAutumn


Aug 16, 2010, 7:26 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I have been climbing for only three years, but I take it very seriously. I think I have learned a lot from RC.com, but not from the "usual suspects" who have post counts in the multiple thousands and who think they are smarter than everyone else. I respect the fact that they have been climbing for a long time, but I'm not inclined to believe that their experience gives them license to be dicks, or even that it makes their answers any more relevant than others (most of the time). As far as I'm concerned, they have already contributed all that they can on this site. They are on record in the forums and their collective knowledge can be obtained using the search; this place would likely be better off without their inflammatory remarks.

I think if "they" left this site like adatesman (or just remained respectful), it would clear out some of the useless canopy in this jungle and allow the saplings to grow. I don't know much about adatesman. He did strike me as being power hungry and annoying, but at least he continued to contribute good content. Others...not so much.

There is also a lot of noise in this place that isn't generated by the know-it-alls, and I'm definitely not above it. I have contributed smart ass remarks, but I also love to participate in (or at least read through) the threads that actually discuss some aspect of climbing. I am mostly a lurker and don't post much, but when I do I reckon I bat about 50% with relevant posts that contribute something to the content on this site.


curt


Aug 16, 2010, 7:27 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
What I would like to know is twofold. How long have you been climbing?(if you have been climbing x amount of years but you only go once in a while, let that be known) and what percentage of your posts you believe to be helpful, of good quality and relevant to actual climbing threads?

I've been climbing 30+ years, almost every weekend and on some vacations. I'm listed as a "local" on Todd Gordon's Joshua Tree website--and the definition there is someone who has done over 1,000 routes in the Park.

I've been posting at RC.com for 8 years and have noticed that each climbing website has its own "personality." It became obvious to me pretty early on that RC.com was not a rigidly structured and moderated site. Its function appears to be both for communicating meaningful information about climbing--and for mere entertainment.

Users like "rgold" choose to use the site only for the former and not for the latter. Some others take the opposite approach and post almost solely in "Community" where (let's face it) there isn't much value besides pure entertainment. For better or worse, I decided to participate in both types of interaction here. I won't speculate what percentage of my overall post count is "good content" but I hope that it is at least clear when I am posting seriously and when I'm not.

Curt


rangerrob


Aug 16, 2010, 7:27 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Climbing 15 years. Wow, and I still suck this bad?? That's depressing. Anyway, most of my posts are drivel, and not meant to be helpful in any manner. The only reason I do it is to find that one rare gem who actually thinks I'm serious and then torment and needle them mercilessly.

Rgold has enough skill and experience to back up what he says, I don't. He's older than dirt though, and is the original rope musket. Guns weren't yet invented when he started climbing. Everyone had to stuff black powder in their barrels still. The sad thing is RGold can still climb better than me on any given day, and he's got at least 30 years on me. Shit, he was climbing better than me in 1967, with a few pins on his gear loop, and a swami belt around his waist.

RR


bill413


Aug 16, 2010, 7:48 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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On the order of thirty years. 25%-60% serious & contributory. There are certain aspects that I am almost always serious about (belayer must not drop the climber; you are ultimately responsible for your own safety).

There was a point raised in another discussion that the presence of campground causes us to take the campground attitude to the other forums (a position refuted by others), and I know that I am somewhat guilty of that. But then, I was posting some in jest before I knew there was a campground, so that's just me, I guess.

I think part of the noise is brought about by the problem of repetitive threads. We all know that the search engine does not return immediately useful information, especially to the people that are inclined to post up the question that's just been asked (for the 45th time) last week. I don't have an answer to this, just the observation.


summerprophet


Aug 16, 2010, 7:54 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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knowledgability (is that a word)
I have been climbing since 1991, and involved in technical ropework and guiding since 1997.
I have also been involved in Mtn. Rescue since 2007.

Quality
I would like to think that my posts are of fairly high quality. You will find they are usually longer than a few short sentences, and detail my knowledge to the best of my abilities. I would guess 70%ish are useful, likely 95% if I am the OP, or responding to an honest question.

The difference between myself and curt, jt512, majid and the like is while I still write all the furious, insulting and inflammatory remarks, I reread them before hitting the "post" button.

I imagine I delete about a third of what I type rather than posting it. It is called restraint, this would be a much better place if we all practiced it a little more.


Regarding knowledge, and those who use it as an excuse. I would rather climb a 5.6 with a attentive student than climb 5.12's with an experienced asshole.


silascl


Aug 16, 2010, 8:13 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Been climbing for 4 years, more seriously for 2-3.

I'm not a knowledgeable or particularly experienced climber, so I don't post very often. When I do post it is about a topic I have some first hand knowledge of, and I would say 70-80% of my posts are of reasonably high quality. The other 20-30% are cheap jokes or silly arguments.

I don't know why there is such an emphasis about long time, knowledgeable climbers being the cornerstone of a climbing community.


hafilax


Aug 16, 2010, 8:26 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Climbing 8 1/2 years. Although I like the witty and sarcastic remarks as much as the next guy, I prefer to be involved in informative, well thought out, climbing threads. I am going to be conservative and say that about 60% of my posts are quality (at least I hope so).
That about sums me up as well.

There's only so much that can be said about climbing so long time posters must have a high tolerance for repeated conversations.


johnwesely


Aug 16, 2010, 8:29 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I have been climbing for five years.

My noise to signal ratio is perhaps a little higher than I would like, but I wouldn't venture to guess at a percentage.

I have been making an honest effort to be nicer to others on this website lately, but I am not sure if it really matters.

I try to help people if it is an area that I am qualified to do so.

Don't ask me why my paragraphs are so short.


Partner drector


Aug 16, 2010, 8:41 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
What I would like to know is twofold. How long have you been climbing?(if you have been climbing x amount of years but you only go once in a while, let that be known) and what percentage of your posts you believe to be helpful, of good quality and relevant to actual climbing threads?

I've been climbing for ten years sometimes a lot and sometimes just a few times per year.

About 1% of my posts are of good quality. Maybe 2%.

Dave


olderic


Aug 16, 2010, 8:55 PM
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Re: [bill413] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Depending on how you compute the starting date it is ~40 years for me.


Except for the occasional injury I have stayed pretty active through out that span.

I'm sure most of my posts are not perceived as helpful but I think a lot of them are actully useful if people would get over being insulted.


This previous post partially sums up my feelings:

bill413 wrote:
I think part of the noise is brought about by the problem of repetitive threads.

It's hard to feel very helpful to those who expect instant gratification and won't take the initiative to do some basic research.

But I thiink there are a couple of other factors that are going to keep your signal to noise ratio down:

1. A lot of questions that come up have fairly static answers - things like how to choose shoes, ropes, harneses etc don't have drastically different answers today then they did a year ago or will a year from now. It's not really reasonable to post them in an interactive dynamic forum.

2. The questions that are fairly dynamic - that do have a "current" answer - are most often answered by the n00bs - as they are the most enthusiastic users and usually are of the form _what I did on my summer vacation" - they recognized one word in the question and went off on their experience with it.

3. Even when you get an answer from some one perhaps most qualified to answer (one of the gold standard responses) you are still getting something written off the cuff - stream of consciousness (sp?) style without a lot of proof rreading or fact checking. No matter how good the responder is their on the fly responses are likely not as good as something that was written for a book or some other professionally published article.


kennoyce


Aug 16, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
What I would like to know is twofold. How long have you been climbing?(if you have been climbing x amount of years but you only go once in a while, let that be known)

I've been climbing seriously (as in I try to make it out at least 2 or 3 times a week) for the last 13 years. During that time there have been time periods that I have climbed daily, and other time periods when I only make it out a couple of times a month, but I would think that on average it is at least once a week. I did my first climb probably 20 years ago and knew I would be a climber from then on.

blueeyedclimber wrote:
what percentage of your posts you believe to be helpful, of good quality and relevant to actual climbing threads?


I personally try to post helpful quality content most of the time, but I do occasionally post up random stupidness as well. I'd have to say that around 75% of my posts are trying to be helpful.

I do also want to point out that one of the reasons I prefer RC to some of the other sites is because of the humor mixed in with the good posts and would hate it if that were to go away.


onceahardman


Aug 16, 2010, 9:35 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Thirty-ish years of climbing, but I'm lucky to get out a few times a year these days. I have my name in a few guidebooks, and have climbed the classics at most of the major North American areas. Family and professional commitments, and very achy knees have limited my climbing time a lot.

Despite no longer climbing at my highest levels, I still have tried to contribute through my knowledge of exercise-based rehabilitation. I'd like to believe that ~80% of my posts are of the helpful variety. I unfortunately sometimes get drawn into snarky disagreements with others, but I try to keep it to a minimum. Even when I disagree, though, I try to argue in a rational manner, and avoid name-calling, ad hominem arguments, straw man arguments, and other logical fallacies.

I think the arguments can be especially interesting when the arguing is substantive, and when it doesn't just degenerate into something like, "your bio says you only lead 5.9, so your advice doesn't mean shit", and so on.


Gmburns2000


Aug 16, 2010, 10:01 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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11 years of fairly active climbing, particularly the first three years and the last five.

signal to noise? depends on if I'm feeling self-righteous or not. If so, then 100% quality. If not, then about 40%. I figure 140% isn't a bad percentage. Tongue

I browse MP sometimes and use MP's route database more than RC.com's for research, but I find the community here is more fun and feel that there is more climbing content on RC.com on a regular basis.

I've learned way more from the A&I threads than any other thread, and I find the logic-you-to-death thread drifts to be rather annoying. I used to get involved in more joking around in the regular threads (non-campground), but that has become rather boring the past year or so.


majid_sabet


Aug 16, 2010, 11:16 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I have pretty long resume with many years in this business and I have posted tons of threads in I&A . 99.9% of my posts may be not useful to many of the wabbit haters but that 0.1 % could save a life and that is all I care.


summerprophet


Aug 16, 2010, 11:25 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
99.9% of my posts may be not useful to many of the wabbit haters but that 0.1 % could save a life and that is all I care.
Agreed


billcoe_


Aug 16, 2010, 11:27 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
After the recent drama between adatesman, management, and others (who shall not be named),

What the hell? Huh? I missed it.

Me: 37 years. Lately been doing new routes at a new area and my strength and skill have been dropping. I just quit after 3000 feet of bolting (easier) routes and probably will be back to 2 times a week after work laps and one or 2 weekend days (elsewhere) soon....hopefully.

As far as my posts goes, they do not compare with Rgold's, JT512's or Healyj's - but I'd go 80 percent good information, 20 percent bullshit....lets call it 21 bullshit if I add this post in there. Probably a grade within Curt, maybe more once his foot belay post gets added into the mix.

Ta ta all!


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Aug 17, 2010, 2:11 AM)


blueeyedclimber


Aug 16, 2010, 11:41 PM
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Re: [curt] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Thanks, Curt. I agree that you participate in both forms, and yes, I can tell the difference.Wink

I'd like to type more and respond to more people but using the iphone for this is annoying Mad


cclarke


Aug 16, 2010, 11:43 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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25 yrs climbing with various levels of enthusiasm.

I have done 50+ first ascents this year from 5.4 to 5.12 so enthusiasm is currently running high.

I prefer moderate trad climbing but respect all the disciplines.


Partner angry


Aug 16, 2010, 11:53 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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15 years.

I started as a troll, mellowed out, got serious and gave real content. I'm bored now, I mostly lurk averaging 5 posts a week or so, none of them with any content.

Overall, I'd say I'm at 50%. In the last 3 years, 1%.

Based on this weeks events, I have deleted the rc.n00b bookmark from the toolbar of my browser hoping that I stop visiting.

As someone who has been through all the generations of this site, all I have to say is that you're better off without it.


iamthewallress


Aug 17, 2010, 12:44 AM
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10ish years, but that only tells a little about my experience or lack thereof.

I used to be more involved in the site in general, especially the aid/walls forum. I now almost exclusively read and contribute to the Ladies' Room. The S/N is good in that forum although both S and N can be pretty low.

The moderating and ever-changing TOS turned me off. But the main reason why I only have a look at recent threads every month or two and post to them even less often is that better conversations are usually happening elsewhere. Or at least conversations that feel more relevant to me and my interests are happening elsewhere. I've aged out of the humor here, and I'm not really looking for technical advise most of the time. I do look at the routes db sometimes.

Edit: I just looked at the 9 people that I listed as my partners at some time in the sort-of-way-backs. Inoticed that on average, they haven't logged in for about 2 years. They all used to be at least a little bit active here and are knowledgeable/experienced climbers. Even if the S/N amongst experienced climbers is good, when enough leave, S becomes too small to be that interesting.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 17, 2010, 1:07 AM)


johnwesely


Aug 17, 2010, 12:45 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Thanks, Curt. I agree that you participate in both forms, and yes, I can tell the difference.Wink

I'd like to type more and respond to more people but using the iphone for this is annoying Mad

Iphone spray.


kriso9tails


Aug 17, 2010, 12:54 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I started climbing perhaps eighteen years ago as a kid. I'm going to estimate that eight years of that involved serious climbing, seven years was casual climbing, and three years in that period involved very little climbing.

What percentage of my posts offer helpful or quality content? I don't know. It's low, but from time to time I make it a point to post something with actual content. I have to say that I rarely feel all that good about it though. That's just me.

This site seems centred around the same sort of self-gratification of something like Twitter. That's cool. It is what it is. I read threads outside of community, but I find it harder and harder to post.


jaablink


Aug 17, 2010, 1:34 AM
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I have been climbing 10 years or so. I created an account here 5ish years ago to find out who was bolting up some of our local established trad lines. It did not take long… I do try to give helpful information more often than not.

Some of us, like that old curt guy are ball busters but they actually know something, others like jt are too aggressive and think they know everything but are actually clueless, and others hold a true line despite all the constant criticism like that mad sabbath kid.
We are all one big dysfunctional family here, you just have to learn to read between the lines. Sometimes there is useful and or important information found on the site, you just have to dig in look for it. More often than not there are just piles of shit dropped by some coward who does not even have a profile.

Well there is my 2cents…
John the Greek


johnwesely


Aug 17, 2010, 1:47 AM
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We never climbed at the Gunks.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Aug 17, 2010, 1:47 AM)

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