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wonderwoman


Aug 18, 2010, 4:28 PM
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Re: [whipper] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
Well, I have been baned from the lab....
and the mods have deleted 2 of my topics about it. Why does JT and Curty boy get to say whatever they want, but I get banned and not even an explanation from the Mods.....its become very draconian around here, and I have had enough....out

Just so that you know, you aren't banned from the lab or any other forum.


Partner cracklover


Aug 18, 2010, 4:31 PM
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Re: [dingus] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO


billl7


Aug 18, 2010, 4:43 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO
I frequent ST as much as here. They do seem to have more political and religious threads which are easy enough to avoid. But I don't agree the other threads all wind up circling the drain of the political and the religious.

Bill L


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Aug 18, 2010, 4:52 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Given the continued drama, I would like to keep this thread going. I have complained about lack of interesting content on here before. Whenever I think of something that might spur debate or discussion I post it. I know there are a few others like me (i.e. cracklover, acorneau, etc.) Although there are some decent climbers among us, we are not the ground breakers or pioneers. We are just regular climbers who try to get out whenever we can.

Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

I appreciate you singling me out as someone who strives to create worthwhile content, although as of late I don't think I particularly deserve your praise.

To answer your question, first of all, there is a large, consistent group of n00bs who produce a lot of background noise. In and of itself, that's fine, and the more experienced climbers seem to have no problem cutting them slack. But on top of that, there is a significant proportion of the users here who treat the forum as a plaything and a joke, and anyone who provides thoughtful content is seen as a sucker. Whether they know it or not, (and in some cases, I'm sure they know it and enjoy it) these folks are disruptive.

Worse, the n00bs sometimes pick up on the energy of the slightly sadistic older posters, and the results aren't pretty.

Combine these two groups with sometimes bizarre and inconsistent moderation, and it just gets to be too much at times, and many of the more experienced users just don't need the grief.

I'd be happy to give concrete examples for any of the above. But most of you probably have a good idea about at least some of it.

GO


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Aug 18, 2010, 4:56 PM
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Re: [billl7] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO
I frequent ST as much as here. They do seem to have more political and religious threads which are easy enough to avoid. But I don't agree the other threads all wind up circling the drain of the political and the religious.

Bill L

You're right, I exaggerated.

GO


dingus


Aug 18, 2010, 5:15 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO

Don't read it then.

DMT


Partner macherry


Aug 18, 2010, 5:18 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
dingus wrote:
Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Supertopo is a bunch of 50+ year old men acting like 16 year old highschool girls who formed a click. If you're not circle jerking on the historical cookie, you're out. Unless you have breasts that is...

Josh

hah, i've always thought that too


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Aug 18, 2010, 5:28 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I'm going to post something a lot of people may not like, but in this thread it seems appropriate.

I've held almost every job on this site from articles editor, to gear editor, to "benevolent blue overlord," which was actually my full-time job, and back to articles and photo editor. As of a couple days ago (just BEFORE the adatesman blowup) I'm just a user again. In short (too late?), I think I have a unique perspective of this website, its idiosyncrasies and its userbase.

IMO, with a few exceptions, the users of Rockclimbing.com are a bunch of whining children, who take Internet discourse and themselves far too seriously. I have observed the obvious, namely that the people who claim to be right the loudest take things the most serious. But conversely, the people who claim to take themselves the least serious tend to be right up there with them.

I'll probably be back, but I think I'll check out for a few days, because I'm not having any fun here right now. In the mean time, take, or not, this one piece of advice: there's only one way to win an Internet argument, and that's not to participate. If we all followed that rule, the signal-to-noise ratio would be pretty amazing.


vegastradguy


Aug 18, 2010, 5:30 PM
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Re: [macherry] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I'm something like 8 years in, both in climbing and on this site- and like bandycoot, my posts improved over time and i strived for a long time to make sure my posts were informative and not inflammatory- still do for the most part, although my patience has worn thin over time- especially over the last six months or so.

i'd say my signal is pretty high, noise is pretty low, mostly because i just dont care to wade into the fray both because its not really worth my time and my quasi-staff status kind of makes me think twice about throwing stones.


olderic


Aug 18, 2010, 5:50 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
Supertopo is a bunch of 50+ year old men acting like 16 year old highschool girls who formed a click. If you're not circle jerking on the historical cookie, you're out. Unless you have breasts that is...

Josh

I don't know - I think the historical stuff is pretty significant and a lot of them do have the chops. The problem with the taco is when they go off climbing topics - which is the majority of the time - and try to offer what they think are profound insights into life, the universe and evrthing - then you realize that being shallow and not of the greatest intelligence has been a characteristic of climbers for quite a while.

There may even be an inverse correlation between climbing ability and deep thought.


majid_sabet


Aug 18, 2010, 6:10 PM
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Re: [whipper] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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whipper wrote:
Well, I have been baned from the lab....
and the mods have deleted 2 of my topics about it. Why does JT and Curty boy get to say whatever they want, but I get banned and not even an explanation from the Mods.....its become very draconian around here, and I have had enough....out

The union boys got Aric kicked out of lab so do not mess with those hard-nailing dudes.


spikeddem


Aug 18, 2010, 6:24 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
I'm something like 8 years in, both in climbing and on this site- and like bandycoot, my posts improved over time and i strived for a long time to make sure my posts were informative and not inflammatory- still do for the most part, although my patience has worn thin over time- especially over the last six months or so.

i'd say my signal is pretty high, noise is pretty low, mostly because i just dont care to wade into the fray both because its not really worth my time and my quasi-staff status kind of makes me think twice about throwing stones.

I totally agree with your estimation of your signal to noise ratio, and I (therefore?) definitely expected you to be more than 8 years experienced. Interesting.


edge


Aug 18, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Re: [olderic] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:

But I thiink there are a couple of other factors that are going to keep your signal to noise ratio down:

1. A lot of questions that come up have fairly static answers - things like how to choose shoes, ropes, harneses etc don't have drastically different answers today then they did a year ago or will a year from now. It's not really reasonable to post them in an interactive dynamic forum.

2. The questions that are fairly dynamic - that do have a "current" answer - are most often answered by the n00bs - as they are the most enthusiastic users and usually are of the form _what I did on my summer vacation" - they recognized one word in the question and went off on their experience with it.

3. Even when you get an answer from some one perhaps most qualified to answer (one of the gold standard responses) you are still getting something written off the cuff - stream of consciousness (sp?) style without a lot of proof rreading or fact checking. No matter how good the responder is their on the fly responses are likely not as good as something that was written for a book or some other professionally published article.

For the most part I agree with this.

I currently have 33 years experience climbing all over the place in all the disciplines.

I spend most of my time posting in Campground, where everyone knows and expects that responses are 100% meant for entertainment purposes only.

Overall, if I post something in one of the other forums then it is a clue that I am trying to be helpful to the best of my knowledge. If someone wants to refute me outright, then I have recently taken the tact of just walking away and letting my post stand on it's own merit. I see no glory in winning an internet discussion by posting longer/louder/more frequently than the other viewpoint.

I do reserve the right to point out potentially dangerous advise with a follow up post in the future, however, and let the reader make up their own mind in the matter.

Loran


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Aug 18, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Re: [dingus] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO

Don't read it then.

DMT

Huh? It's a bummer when a good conversation circles the drain too quickly, and your response is "don't read it"? That would make sense if I said all the conversations there are tripe. But I said the opposite - that I think they're interesting, and wished they wouldn't circle the drain so fast.

At least it's better than when LEB was sucking down every thread (even some of the climbing-related ones) faster than you could say pee-ton.

Cheers,

GO


kriso9tails


Aug 18, 2010, 7:33 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
[...] even then I've been told that what I have to say is the "worst advice" someone has ever heard, which was ridiculous. While I took no offense, it's those kind of things that make you realize that taking the time to contribute is a waste of time.

I felt the need to look that up. In all fairness it was bustloose that said it, and I don't think he should be counted amongst real people or ever be referred to as 'someone'.


(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 18, 2010, 7:34 PM)


jsh


Aug 18, 2010, 7:35 PM
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Re: [edge] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
I spend most of my time posting in Campground, where everyone knows and expects that responses are 100% meant for entertainment purposes only.

Hello, my name is Julie, and I've been climbing since 17 years. All over, mostly trad, etc, etc etc.. I'd put a conservative estimate of my contributions as 0.3%.

I generally avoid this place like the plague mostly for the bunch of reasons that Gabe and Josh (bandycoot) mentioned. The as-yet-unmentioned reason is the Campground - it's not just for entertainment. It's almost explicitly a place to strut like a peacock for "inflicting butthurtz" (did I spell that rite?), to ridicule honest people and threads, and to determine who the king of the sandbox is by way of biggest insult.

(this post will be similarly treated in 3, 2, 1 .... but see below: I really couldn't care less. I am just noting the detrimental effect it has on adult conversation.)

So long as that is the case, and encouraged - this place will always be stuck in junior high school. I have little time nor any desire to revisit the politics of that era; I was never "in", and long since couldn't care less. All I want is to shoot shit about climbing while I'm stuck indoors.


(This post was edited by jsh on Aug 18, 2010, 7:37 PM)


dingus


Aug 18, 2010, 7:36 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why is good discussion on here so scarce? Is it because our users are too global, lacking any clear connection. Are we not specific enough, as far as discipline and geographic area? What?

Josh

Its very simple - there are better conversations elsewhere.

Like here:

supertopo.com

DMT

Yes, there are many good topics that start there. But they all wind up circling the drain of the political or the religious. Sometimes they go there quite quickly. It's like that's all anyone cares about. Kind of a bummer.

GO

Don't read it then.

DMT

Huh? It's a bummer when a good conversation circles the drain too quickly, and your response is "don't read it"? That would make sense if I said all the conversations there are tripe. But I said the opposite - that I think they're interesting, and wished they wouldn't circle the drain so fast.

At least it's better than when LEB was sucking down every thread (even some of the climbing-related ones) faster than you could say pee-ton.

Cheers,

GO

Whatever. Its not important.

DMT


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 18, 2010, 8:31 PM
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Re: [bill413] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Learned all I know about climbing and safety from RC.com + books.

Yur gonna die!!!

Tongue

How's that for affecting my S/N ratio?

Any post in this thread is noise, anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves.


bandycoot


Aug 18, 2010, 8:32 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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kriso9tails wrote:
bandycoot wrote:
[...] even then I've been told that what I have to say is the "worst advice" someone has ever heard, which was ridiculous. While I took no offense, it's those kind of things that make you realize that taking the time to contribute is a waste of time.

I felt the need to look that up. In all fairness it was bustloose that said it, and I don't think he should be counted amongst real people or ever be referred to as 'someone'.

Have you ever trained a 30 year old female new to the sport from leading the occasional 10a sport to redpointing 13a trad in a couple of years? I have... The question in the thead was how to climb 5.13. I've lead a few 5.13s, including one on gear and was imparting reasonable knowledge that he was misconstruing and interpreting. I don't think it matters how knowledgeable you are if you're disagreeing with solid advice. That guy was spouting pure "noise." If you can't see that, I'm going to guess that you've never lead 5.13....

Josh


kriso9tails


Aug 18, 2010, 8:43 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Your response has absolutely noting to do with what I said. I don't know if you need to reread what I wrote or if it needs to be clarified, but you are way off the mark.


(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 18, 2010, 8:44 PM)


gmggg


Aug 18, 2010, 8:46 PM
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Re: [jsh] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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jsh wrote:
edge wrote:
I spend most of my time posting in Campground, where everyone knows and expects that responses are 100% meant for entertainment purposes only.

Hello, my name is Julie, and I've been climbing since 17 years. All over, mostly trad, etc, etc etc.. I'd put a conservative estimate of my contributions as 0.3%.

I generally avoid this place like the plague mostly for the bunch of reasons that Gabe and Josh (bandycoot) mentioned. The as-yet-unmentioned reason is the Campground - it's not just for entertainment. It's almost explicitly a place to strut like a peacock for "inflicting butthurtz" (did I spell that rite?), to ridicule honest people and threads, and to determine who the king of the sandbox is by way of biggest insult.

(this post will be similarly treated in 3, 2, 1 .... but see below: I really couldn't care less. I am just noting the detrimental effect it has on adult conversation.)

So long as that is the case, and encouraged - this place will always be stuck in junior high school. I have little time nor any desire to revisit the politics of that era; I was never "in", and long since couldn't care less. All I want is to shoot shit about climbing while I'm stuck indoors.

I agree 100% with the bold section above.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 18, 2010, 8:54 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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I go back to this comment from another thread:
jt512 wrote:
OutdoorReporter wrote:
I came across this company that makes unique chalk bags and thought I'd share it with the community. Its not like I make any money when someone buys one of them.

So you're just hoping to get laid, then.

Jay
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2373781#2373781

I think this gets straight to the heart of the matter. Why would anyone add any signal? With the 24 hour radio station WIIFM on, unless one is paid to produce content (and damn right I miss j_ung’s content), why would anyone take the time?

People are friendly and with an activity with as potentially severe consequences, there is a strong urge to keep each other safe. But why add a trip report? Does writing a good trip report lead potential hookups? Does it help me climb better?

I think the comment "All I want is to shoot shit about climbing while I'm stuck indoors" is incorrect. You don’t want to hear about my climb and I don’t want to hear about yours, unless something, well, epic happened. I would phrase it as "All I want to do is shoot shit with other climbers while I’m stuck indoors". If the conversation turns to climbing – great. If it never gets beyond “how do you make coffee while camping” – that is just fine as well.


bandycoot


Aug 18, 2010, 8:54 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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kriso9tails wrote:
Your response has absolutely noting to do with what I said. I don't know if you need to reread what I wrote or if it needs to be clarified, but you are way off the mark.

OK, then what were you trying to say?

To me it seemed like you're saying an aggressive poster's noise is somehow switched to signal because they're "known". That's an invalid argument in my book.

Josh


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Aug 18, 2010, 9:05 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Re:Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
Your response has absolutely noting to do with what I said. I don't know if you need to reread what I wrote or if it needs to be clarified, but you are way off the mark.

OK, then what were you trying to say?

To me it seemed like you're saying an aggressive poster's noise is somehow switched to signal because they're "known". That's an invalid argument in my book.

Josh

How on earth did you get that out of what he wrote? He said the guy's opinion didn't count for shit, so you shouldn't take offense, since everyone ignores that guy's posts anyway.

GO


gmggg


Aug 18, 2010, 9:06 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Signal to Noise [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
I go back to this comment from another thread:
jt512 wrote:
OutdoorReporter wrote:
I came across this company that makes unique chalk bags and thought I'd share it with the community. Its not like I make any money when someone buys one of them.

So you're just hoping to get laid, then.

Jay
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2373781#2373781

I think this gets straight to the heart of the matter. Why would anyone add any signal? With the 24 hour radio station WIIFM on, unless one is paid to produce content (and damn right I miss j_ung’s content), why would anyone take the time?

People are friendly and with an activity with as potentially severe consequences, there is a strong urge to keep each other safe. But why add a trip report? Does writing a good trip report lead potential hookups? Does it help me climb better?

I think the comment "All I want is to shoot shit about climbing while I'm stuck indoors" is incorrect. You don’t want to hear about my climb and I don’t want to hear about yours, unless something, well, epic happened. I would phrase it as "All I want to do is shoot shit with other climbers while I’m stuck indoors". If the conversation turns to climbing – great. If it never gets beyond “how do you make coffee while camping” – that is just fine as well.

I guess I understand shooting shit differently from, at least, you two.

In my mind that phrase conjures banter, jokes, casual discussion, and debate. It's an all encompassing conversation.

To be honest though I'm still not even sure what the "signal" is actually supposed to be. Serious answers to serious questions? In depth trip reports with great pics? Rigorous testing of systems and gear?

That sounds more like a magazine than a forum.

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