|
milesenoell
Oct 3, 2010, 5:54 PM
Post #2 of 84
(9884 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
...as opposed to folks like me who just think they are unnecessary in the first place. (but I don't aid)
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Oct 3, 2010, 5:55 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Oct 3, 2010, 5:56 PM
Post #3 of 84
(9877 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
I didn't see anyone get called a dumbass.
I want my money back.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Oct 3, 2010, 6:07 PM
Post #4 of 84
(9864 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
caughtinside wrote: I didn't see anyone get called a dumbass. I want my money back.
You pay per click?
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Oct 3, 2010, 6:08 PM
Post #5 of 84
(9862 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
Old news. But definitely worth repeating as we still see lots of climbers using the things.
|
|
|
|
|
Lbrombach
Oct 3, 2010, 6:21 PM
Post #6 of 84
(9847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2010
Posts: 149
|
I know it's old news, I just thought it was a good link for some non-believers to hear it right from a manufacturer's mouth. Like you said, using a daisychain to anchor still sooo very common and being taught to noobs every day. If just one person benefits from my employer's generous sponsorship of my web-surfing time today, then it's all worthwhile.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Oct 3, 2010, 8:03 PM
Post #7 of 84
(9803 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
and how is clipping one pocket of a daisy dangerous?
hmmmm ....
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Oct 3, 2010, 8:25 PM
Post #8 of 84
(9788 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
bearbreeder wrote: and how is clipping one pocket of a daisy dangerous? hmmmm ....
If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not.
|
|
|
|
|
lrossi
Oct 3, 2010, 8:26 PM
Post #9 of 84
(9787 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2005
Posts: 118
|
They should have locked those lockers in the last scene of the video. Someone will die!
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Oct 3, 2010, 9:09 PM
Post #10 of 84
(9758 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
bill413 wrote: If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not.
then a deployed screamer would have the same issue ... yet they are still usable as slings
these troglodytes cavers have done some testing on daisies, PAS, etc ... nylon daisies came out just fine ... just never use dyneema anything for your tether (PAS, daisy, sling)
http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/RiggingForRescue-DaisyChains-2005.pdf
just make sure the daisy is rated 22+ KN (bd is only rated to 16 kN) and is nylon ... and you only clip one pocket
or just get a sterling chain reactor or better yet use a purcell
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 3, 2010, 9:43 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Oct 3, 2010, 11:29 PM
Post #11 of 84
(9672 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
bill413 wrote: bearbreeder wrote: and how is clipping one pocket of a daisy dangerous? hmmmm .... If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not.
I have never understood where, how, and/or why daisy chains made it into the trad world from aid climbing. They have a specific purpose, and it ain't an anchor system in normal trad systems.
Probably a good heads up for those new to the game.
You don't need all this shit. The simpler the better.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 3, 2010, 11:29 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
ensonik
Oct 4, 2010, 2:16 AM
Post #12 of 84
(9608 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2009
Posts: 134
|
The n00b I was am used these for the first couple months of trad climbing.
Now; I clove hitch into the anchor, then from there, clove hitch a second time with a second biner.
I trust the rope enough to climb and fall on it, so why not trust it when it runs from my harness to the anchor. As a result, I now forego the second sling/attachment to the anchor.
Too much? Not enough?
Edit: use proper tense
(This post was edited by ensonik on Oct 4, 2010, 2:24 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
cruxstacean
Oct 4, 2010, 3:27 AM
Post #13 of 84
(9561 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 5, 2010
Posts: 174
|
The Devil eh? what does that make aid climbing?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 4, 2010, 4:34 AM
Post #14 of 84
(9527 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
cruxstacean wrote: The Devil eh? what does that make aid climbing?
Eternal torture.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
julio412
Oct 4, 2010, 8:53 AM
Post #15 of 84
(9449 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 16, 2005
Posts: 144
|
I have always felt the beauty of a daisy was quite simple;
It allows an easy escape from the belay.
If one anchors with a daisy, then a fall occurs and the fallen climber cannot unweigh the rope, you have the entire length of the rope to lower with+ the added advantage of being able to escape the belay by tying off,securing the rope.
If one anchors oneself AND uses a daisy as an integral dynamic part of a belay- then yes you maybe a dumbass.
basically a daisy allows you options if used correctly.
Over the years I have come to understand that BD is not an end all, and they lack originality in thought and expression.
Mario
(This post was edited by julio412 on Oct 4, 2010, 9:32 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
devkrev
Oct 5, 2010, 11:46 AM
Post #16 of 84
(9232 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 933
|
socalclimber wrote: bill413 wrote: bearbreeder wrote: and how is clipping one pocket of a daisy dangerous? hmmmm .... If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not. I have never understood where, how, and/or why daisy chains made it into the trad world from aid climbing. They have a specific purpose, and it ain't an anchor system in normal trad systems. Probably a good heads up for those new to the game. You don't need all this shit. The simpler the better.
It's because noob-trad climbers love playing with trinkets and dodads. Since they aren't comfortable enough to climb hard, they have to play with stuff, daisy chains are stuff on the shelf at REI. Completely ignoring the fact that it is a completely inappropriate use.
I know, I did.
dev
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Oct 5, 2010, 12:00 PM
Post #17 of 84
(9225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
devkrev wrote: socalclimber wrote: bill413 wrote: bearbreeder wrote: and how is clipping one pocket of a daisy dangerous? hmmmm .... If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not. I have never understood where, how, and/or why daisy chains made it into the trad world from aid climbing. They have a specific purpose, and it ain't an anchor system in normal trad systems. Probably a good heads up for those new to the game. You don't need all this shit. The simpler the better. It's because noob-trad climbers love playing with trinkets and dodads. Since they aren't comfortable enough to climb hard, they have to play with stuff, daisy chains are stuff on the shelf at REI. Completely ignoring the fact that it is a completely inappropriate use. I know, I did. dev
Well that's an honest response. Thanks. Probably pretty accurate as well.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Oct 5, 2010, 2:50 PM
Post #18 of 84
(9164 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
bearbreeder wrote: bill413 wrote: If you clip an intermediate pocket, you are relying on the stitching at the end of that pocket. However it is not "full strength." So, that pocket may blow into the next one, causing damage to the sling comprising the daisy. So, you are now on a compromised system. Will it fail? Probably not. then a deployed screamer would have the same issue ... yet they are still usable as slings these troglodytes cavers have done some testing on daisies, PAS, etc ... nylon daisies came out just fine ... just never use dyneema anything for your tether (PAS, daisy, sling) http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/RiggingForRescue-DaisyChains-2005.pdf just make sure the daisy is rated 22+ KN (bd is only rated to 16 kN) and is nylon ... and you only clip one pocket or just get a sterling chain reactor or better yet use a purcell
From your link:
caverdudez wrote: Table 4: Drop Test Data with 100 kg Test Mass Lanyard: Climb High 25mm Nylon Daisy Fall Factor (kN) Result 1.0 12.8 Catch (no apparent damage) 1.5 17.0 Catch (moderate chafe at girth hitch) 2.0 19.9 Catch(moderate chafe at girth hitch)
If this makes you feel good about falling onto a nylon daisy, you are reading it wrong. Just because the daisy itself will survive doesn't mean that your anchor or internal organs will.
Smart money says:
1. Don't fall on tethers.
2. If you think you might violate Rule 1, tie in to the anchor with dynamic climbing rope.
3. If you think you might violate Rule 1 and cannot anchor in with the rope for some reason, use a purcell prusik as your tether, which will naturally slip and dissipate peak loading.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Oct 5, 2010, 4:09 PM
Post #19 of 84
(9121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Here's the truth about Daisy Chains:
Daisy chains have always been a "personal attachment point."
Daisy chains are not an "anchor" point. <-- there is a difference
Daisy chains should never be used as a "team" attachment point. <-- this violates the first and second points.
Daisy chains are only full strength at full length without a girth hitch.
Daisy chains are very useful in many situations.
Daisy chains, like all gear, have limitations.
And here's the truth about all gear:
All gear has the potential to fail.
Any piece of gear used outside it's limitations has the potential to fail.
Any piece of gear that fails has the potential to kill or lead to serious injury.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 5, 2010, 4:21 PM
Post #20 of 84
(9113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
the_climber wrote: Here's the truth about Daisy Chains: Daisy chains have always been a "personal attachment point." Daisy chains are not an "anchor" point. <-- there is a difference Daisy chains should never be used as a "team" attachment point. <-- this violates the first and second points. Daisy chains are only full strength at full length without a girth hitch. Daisy chains are very useful in many situations. Daisy chains, like all gear, have limitations. And here's the truth about all gear: All gear has the potential to fail. Any piece of gear used outside it's limitations has the potential to fail. Any piece of gear that fails has the potential to kill or lead to serious injury.
Even when clipped at full length, daisy chains will fail in a factor-2 fall in the lab.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 4:54 PM
Post #21 of 84
(9075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
MS1 wrote: If this makes you feel good about falling onto a nylon daisy, you are reading it wrong. Just because the daisy itself will survive doesn't mean that your anchor or internal organs will. Smart money says: 1. Don't fall on tethers. 2. If you think you might violate Rule 1, tie in to the anchor with dynamic climbing rope. 3. If you think you might violate Rule 1 and cannot anchor in with the rope for some reason, use a purcell prusik as your tether, which will naturally slip and dissipate peak loading.
simple point is dont use a tether unless setting up for a rap or lower ... however if you did fall on a tether best is a purcell... then any dynamic teher ... then any unknotted nylon sling ... including a daisy, chain reactor ... etc
never dyneema
if a fall ever too place a 1" nylon daisy produces less force on the body than a PAS and can survive a factor 2 while the PAS snaps at 1.25 ... i dont see anybody suggesting the PAS is unsafe
sh!t happens ... there's a reason why those cavers tested falls on slings, purcells, homemade tethers. daisies
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 5, 2010, 5:06 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 4:57 PM
Post #22 of 84
(9068 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
jt512 wrote: Even when clipped at full length, daisy chains will fail in a factor-2 fall in the lab. Jay
which nylon daisies? the BD ones? ... test results if you could ... most nylon ones are now rated 20+kn ... which means a 20+kn sling would likely ail in the same scenerio
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Oct 5, 2010, 5:06 PM
Post #23 of 84
(9057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
jt512 wrote: the_climber wrote: Daisy chains have always been a "personal attachment point." Daisy chains are not an "anchor" point. <-- there is a difference Even when clipped at full length, daisy chains will fail in a factor-2 fall in the lab. Jay
You should also state that your statement is even more true with dyneema/spectra.
As for the FF2... well, if that's occurring that what really should be used is an "anchor" point such as the rope, and perhaps a rethinking of one's approach to climbing. Purcell's are better than daisy's/PAS/... and they've been in use a lot longer than most think. They are really the best alternative to using the rope in most situations for the 'average climber'.
I'll fully admit that I keep a daisy on my harness, however, you will rarely find me at an established crag, on a sport route, or on an established route for that matter. I use a daisy for what it is designed for, and I use the rope to tie in. Climbers need a better understanding of the limitations of all gear, bolts included.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 5, 2010, 5:09 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 5, 2010, 5:34 PM
Post #24 of 84
(9036 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
bearbreeder wrote: jt512 wrote: Even when clipped at full length, daisy chains will fail in a factor-2 fall in the lab. Jay which nylon daisies? the BD ones? ... test results if you could ... most nylon ones are now rated 20+kn ... which means a 20+kn sling would likely ail in the same scenerio
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html. Scroll down to "Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?" Note that the author is a former head of quality control for Black Diamond.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 5:47 PM
Post #25 of 84
(9015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
thanks ..
points
- a daisy may fail at the pocket tacks .. but if its rated for 22 kn ... then it should fail at that rating regardless of where it fails ...
- from http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/RiggingForRescue-DaisyChains-2005.pdf ... where we have actual data
Table 4 highlights some of the drops conducted with the Climb High 25mm Nylon Daisy Chains.
While the MAF values were considerable, none of the tests failed the lanyard or resulted in any
significant visible damage.
as long as you clip one pocket a daisy is much better than a PAS or even a knotted sling ... and i dont see anyone screaming about those ...
just use the tether to set up for lowers and rappels ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 5, 2010, 5:51 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
