|
majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 7:31 AM
Post #1 of 65
(13498 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
From upcoming MS book
Belayer; Inexperienced ,couldn't arrest the leader fall
Victim; Experienced climber allowing belayer to use 8 as belay device
Falling distance; 40 meter (decked from traverse pitch 2).
Injuries to leader; you be the judge
Injuries to belayer: severe rope burn. Was rescued from pitch 2 when let go of the lead rope. No backup rope
Outcome; both lived to tell their story
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Nov 30, 2010, 5:11 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
Nov 30, 2010, 7:50 AM
Post #2 of 65
(13485 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
any pics from the inside of the elios? Was wondering how the foam held up. Do you know the location of the impact on the helmet? Cant tell if the crush was from the back or from the side where the damage is
|
|
|
|
|
sp115
Nov 30, 2010, 12:27 PM
Post #3 of 65
(13434 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 515
|
That injury occured from a fall where he was wearing a helmet? Or because he wasn't wearing a helmet?
(I'm easily confused by the Intardnet - especially when the first image didn't appear when I first read this thread)
(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 30, 2010, 6:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
oldsalt
Nov 30, 2010, 1:53 PM
Post #4 of 65
(13407 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: 919
|
I assume that the helmet split on impact and the fractured edges sliced the scalp.
I admit to prejudice against climbing helmets. They are designed to protect the head from falling objects or impact with the top of the head. If my assumption is correct, this one failed despite its intended use.
I wear a skateboard helmet, which is designed to protect the top, front, back, and sides. They also cost less, because the skateboard market is much larger than climbing. One study that I found shows a steady market size just over 2,000,000 outdoor climbers since 1999. You see kids on skateboards everywhere. Very scientific!
I would like to know the facts behind this incident, because this situation could happen to any of us.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Nov 30, 2010, 2:13 PM
Post #5 of 65
(13389 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
oldsalt wrote: I assume that the helmet split on impact and the fractured edges sliced the scalp. I admit to prejudice against climbing helmets. They are designed to protect the head from falling objects or impact with the top of the head. If my assumption is correct, this one failed despite its intended use. I wear a skateboard helmet, which is designed to protect the top, front, back, and sides. They also cost less, because the skateboard market is much larger than climbing. One study that I found shows a steady market size just over 2,000,000 outdoor climbers since 1999. You see kids on skateboards everywhere. Very scientific! I would like to know the facts behind this incident, because this situation could happen to any of us.
I'm pretty sure a helmet saved my life once. I was riding a horse, and it spooked and bucked violently without warning. I was thrown and landed head first on a pointy rock. The helmet was cracked open like an egg. I'm pretty sure that, if I hadn't been wearing it, my skull would have suffered the same fate.
That being said, it was a hardtop, not a little foam bucket like I mostly wear biking or climbing. In the same situation, would my meteor III come through? I can't really say for sure.
(This post was edited by MS1 on Nov 30, 2010, 4:34 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
climboard
Nov 30, 2010, 2:37 PM
Post #6 of 65
(13362 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 503
|
If I fell 40 meters, hit my head, and walked away from it with just a scalp laceration I would say the helmet did its job quite well.
|
|
|
|
|
binkus
Nov 30, 2010, 2:51 PM
Post #7 of 65
(13349 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2010
Posts: 28
|
A little different then climbing helmets, but for a long time I was not a big fan of wearing my ballistic helmet (military helmet) during operations. Although they are ballistic helmets they are not bullet proof and are mainly designed to protect from fragmentation, not direct bullet strikes. Anyways a couple years back, while in Afghanistan, a coworker of mine took a round through the front of his helmet, the helmet deflected the round and slowed it down enough so it grazed around the scull and under the skin but did not penetrate the skull itself. Except for some stiches, and a hole thru his ear he turned out OK. My point being, helmets may not prevent every injury but they still increase your odds when shit goes wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
oldsalt
Nov 30, 2010, 3:02 PM
Post #8 of 65
(13342 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: 919
|
Thank you for your service.
Nobody is out to get me when I climb; I am my own greatest enemy outdoors. It takes cojones to wear that other helmet and look out for the rest of us.
Yes, this is off-topic, but our troops deserve more love than they often get.
|
|
|
|
|
TradEddie
Nov 30, 2010, 3:12 PM
Post #9 of 65
(13327 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2007
Posts: 164
|
oldsalt wrote: They are designed to protect the head from falling objects or impact with the top of the head. If my assumption is correct, this one failed despite its intended use.
Failed??? Climbing helmets are not certified to protect against falls, yet this one protected the wearer enough that he lived to tell the tale, mission accomplished. If that was me, I'd send a Thank You card with that photo to the manufacturer. Perhaps a skateboard helmet would have done better, but this one did all that was required.
I expect one reason that helmets are not rated to protect against falls is liability in the event of "failure". Maybe I'm naive but I expect that manufacturer's do design climbing helmets to protect against falls, but can't make those claims.
You take your chances, but any helmet is better than none at all.
TE
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 4:15 PM
Post #10 of 65
(13272 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
redlude97 wrote: any pics from the inside of the elios? Was wondering how the foam held up. Do you know the location of the impact on the helmet? Cant tell if the crush was from the back or from the side where the damage is
I'll check it later and let you know.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Nov 30, 2010, 4:19 PM
Post #11 of 65
(13268 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
You can discuss (argue) all you like about the performance of the helmet in this situation--but the much bigger issue is the non-performance of the belayer. If you decide to climb with a fucking retard, don't count on a helmet to keep you alive. This guy merely lucked out--helmet or not.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
Lbrombach
Nov 30, 2010, 4:51 PM
Post #12 of 65
(13216 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2010
Posts: 149
|
The helmet clearly absorbed much energy and the guys head is better off. The fact that it's still possible to get injured in car crashes doesn't mean seat belts and air bags are a bad thing.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #13 of 65
(13207 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
redlude97 wrote: any pics from the inside of the elios? Was wondering how the foam held up. Do you know the location of the impact on the helmet? Cant tell if the crush was from the back or from the side where the damage is
I examined three of such helmets in the past and in every case, inner foam has been shattered in pieces.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 5:01 PM
Post #14 of 65
(13199 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
curt wrote: You can discuss (argue) all you like about the performance of the helmet in this situation--but the much bigger issue is the non-performance of the belayer. If you decide to climb with a fucking retard, don't count on a helmet to keep you alive. This guy merely lucked out--helmet or not. Curt
He even told her to run the rope parallel to 8 instead of wrapping round 8 for better rope management. She said" when he fell, I do not what happened but I could not stop the rope " .
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Nov 30, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #15 of 65
(13195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454
|
Helmets, and gri-gri's save lives.
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
Nov 30, 2010, 5:08 PM
Post #16 of 65
(13186 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
Well head injuries can occur even with a good belayer so what is the point in harping on that point and ignore the helmets ability to mitigate some of the damagenin this case. Can you not envision a case where a impact may have occured and want to know how a climbing helmet would perform in the real world especially since that info is already so sparse?
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Nov 30, 2010, 5:09 PM
Post #17 of 65
(13182 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
potreroed wrote: Helmets, and gri-gri's save lives.
While the above is arguably true, we've seen some great examples to the contrary of the latter.
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Nov 30, 2010, 5:13 PM
Post #18 of 65
(13175 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
I'm really curious as to how a helmet without any foam would have performed in this scenario. My helmet is the old "hard hat" style, and I am strongly considering moving away from that.
|
|
|
|
|
chokeX
Nov 30, 2010, 6:07 PM
Post #19 of 65
(13136 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2010
Posts: 1
|
In reply to: I examined three of such helmets in the past and in every case, inner foam has been shattered in pieces.
In the motorcycling world after and crash or sometimes even if dropped from a good height it's recommended to replace the helmet because the foam has been altered and wont absorb energy in the next incident. This can be a hard pill to swallow but necessary, even when a helmet can cost upwards of $400. They are really one time use.
(This post was edited by chokeX on Nov 30, 2010, 6:08 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
wwalt822
Nov 30, 2010, 6:12 PM
Post #20 of 65
(13129 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2010
Posts: 116
|
curt wrote: You can discuss (argue) all you like about the performance of the helmet in this situation--but the much bigger issue is the non-performance of the belayer. If you decide to climb with a fucking retard, don't count on a helmet to keep you alive. This guy merely lucked out--helmet or not. Curt
If the belayer is "inexperienced" then depending on how inexperienced, it is up to the more experienced person to make sure the system is safe. How do we know that he didn't give the belayer a 5 minute lesson right before this? Who lets someone new belay them on an 8 especially? Sounds more like a Darwin award escape than an idiot belayer.
(This post was edited by wwalt822 on Nov 30, 2010, 6:14 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Nov 30, 2010, 6:20 PM
Post #21 of 65
(13115 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
Back in highschool I was in a building trades class, we were building a house with a wood basement. Our teacher was adamant about hardhats. We all thought it was stupid. One day I needed to get up on the top of the first floor walls, about 17 feet up since I was standing in the hole next to the basement wall. As I grabbed in the basement window frame and started to climb up, the wall was wobbling a bit since it was just barely framed in, and a hammer some nitwit left on top of the wall above fell and clocked me on the head. Without my hardhat it would have been realllly bad news. As it was it rung my bell.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 6:27 PM
Post #22 of 65
(13106 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
chokeX wrote: In reply to: I examined three of such helmets in the past and in every case, inner foam has been shattered in pieces. This is a good thing. It means the foam dissipated energy and did its job. In the motorcycling world after and crash or sometimes even if dropped from a good height it's recommended to replace the helmet because the foam has been altered and wont absorb energy in the next incident. This can be a hard pill to swallow but necessary, even when a helmet can cost upwards of $400. They are really one time use.
The only complain I have about one of the petzl foam helmet (that has huge holes on top and side) where in one report, a sharp piece of rock fell in to hole and penetrated in the climber's head causing him to go on coma for 6 months. Two years later, he still has problems with walking or given speech.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Nov 30, 2010, 6:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Colinhoglund
Nov 30, 2010, 6:33 PM
Post #23 of 65
(13095 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2008
Posts: 338
|
The first week of October of this year I got hit by a big piece of choss. All I had time to do was duck into the wall as it fell. I now have Petzl to thank for my life, my elios worked. The rock glanced off the side of my helmet and hit my lift shoulder. The impact on the helmet wasn't that bad, but probably would have really messed up my head/neck if I were not wearing it since the rock was quite sharp. Petzl Elios saved my life.
For those who are interested, my shoulder hurt like a MFer for about a week, but I was back climbing in about 3 weeks.
Ps. Did you know that?????
Dried blood comes out of polarteck and polyester with nothing more than cold water!!!
NOW YOU KNOW . . .
|
|
|
|
|
sp115
Nov 30, 2010, 6:47 PM
Post #24 of 65
(13083 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 515
|
My first lead fall was an 18-footer. I went completely backwards and upside-down. The back of my head (I was wearing a helmet) hit the wall so hard that a group of climbers 250-feet away said they heard it.
My wife thought I was knocked out, but in fact I didn't have so much as a bump or bruise anywhere.
I'm 100% certain that helmet saved my ass big time.
(edit: I didn't realize it at first, but I'm actually wearing it my profile pic)
(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 30, 2010, 6:50 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Nov 30, 2010, 7:38 PM
Post #25 of 65
(13037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
helmets saves lives ...
its that simple really ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
