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SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre
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highcamp


Jan 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
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SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre
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Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik


(This post was edited by highcamp on Jan 25, 2011, 10:52 PM)


spikeddem


Jan 25, 2011, 11:07 PM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Jesus Christ.


guangzhou


Jan 26, 2011, 12:25 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I personally don't care if he chooses to bolt a new routes. He can climb the generator route, swing left or right at the top and rap bolt if he want.


Partner j_ung


Jan 26, 2011, 12:50 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.


caughtinside


Jan 26, 2011, 1:12 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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This whole fiasco gets down to my basic beef with pro climbing. Would anyone not underwritten by a sponsor do something like fly to patagonia with a film crew to rap bolt a sport route on the summit of an alpine peak?

I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.


notapplicable


Jan 26, 2011, 1:20 AM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

He was the one that said he could take the heat...


guangzhou


Jan 26, 2011, 2:07 AM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

I think you are uneasy about telling other people how they should climb, because you don't want other people imposing their rules on you. (Me too)

If he's bolting a face climb, I rather see him rap bolt a face then put a bolt latter then try to free the route. Bolts placed on rappel are better positioned, doesn't mean the bolts will be close, I am guessing, they will be where they are needed to make the route safe. (Assuming you can can make a Patagonia safe)

In this case, he's climbing an existing route, using that to access the top and rap botling a separate and new route. Nothing wrong with that in my book.


thenose


Jan 26, 2011, 5:45 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I have a better idea, create a petition to have the sand professionally removed from your vagina. Stop acting like such a bitch. Why the hell do you care if he bolts a sport route, its not like your ever going to climb it.


(This post was edited by thenose on Jan 26, 2011, 5:45 AM)


DuckBeard


Jan 26, 2011, 6:21 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Has good intentions. Too bad a cookie cutter email sent 1000 times with only differing signatures won't accomplish anything but spam their inboxes.


rainman0915


Jan 26, 2011, 7:59 AM
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Re: [DuckBeard] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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DuckBeard wrote:
Has good intentions.

"You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it." what was that about good intentions? in my opinion he is a pussy who doesn't have the balls for alpine climbing. this attitude along with his affiliation with redbull prove to me that he is a wanna be moto X badass and has no place in traditional or alpine climbing.


airscape


Jan 26, 2011, 8:01 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Could you please direct me to the link of the petition FOR bolting Cerro Torre.

I would really like it to become a sport climbing destination.


spikeddem


Jan 26, 2011, 3:15 PM
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Re: [airscape] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper.

think about it before you sign the petition.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 26, 2011, 3:15 PM)


blueeyedclimber


Jan 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I don't sign petitions for people or organizations who I don't know. Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways. I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it. Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.

Josh


edge


Jan 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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Re: [thenose] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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thenose wrote:
highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I have a better idea, create a petition to have the sand professionally removed from your vagina. Stop acting like such a bitch. Why the hell do you care if he bolts a sport route, its not like your ever going to climb it.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=2085257;#2085257


kaizen


Jan 26, 2011, 3:35 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper.

think about it before you sign the petition.

You sure have invested a lot of posts for someone who supposedly thinks it's a non-issue.


spikeddem


Jan 26, 2011, 3:41 PM
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Re: [kaizen] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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kaizen wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper.

think about it before you sign the petition.

You sure have invested a lot of posts for someone who supposedly thinks it's a non-issue.
im just asking for you to think about what i said


gmggg


Jan 26, 2011, 3:53 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.

+1

Well said.


highcamp


Jan 26, 2011, 3:53 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it.

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut


blueeyedclimber wrote:
...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways.

Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links):

the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.


blueeyedclimber wrote:
... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.

Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.


fresh


Jan 26, 2011, 3:54 PM
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things I don't have a problem with:
1. conscientiously rap-bolting lines that have no natural protection so they can be freed safely.
2. I guess that's about it.

things I have a problem with:
1. red bull not cleaning up their litter from the prior attempt
2. red bull bolting next to spots for natural gear placements
3. bolting anything for a film crew
4. red bull lying about and failing to take accountability for their impact

so while I agree with the sentiment, I can't really get behind the outrage over the rap-bolting.

I've been an evangelist about the BS Red Bull caused a year ago, and the fact that they lied about it and left others to clean it up. so it pains me to take sides with them on anything, but if lama wants to rap-bolt a new line on an otherwise unclimbable portion of the wall, I can't say there's anything wrong with that.

within the context of their prior actions, and without them having apologized for those actions, it does strike me as especially abominable. but that doesn't make it wrong.

I also can't really get behind the petition because it is basically asking someone to tell someone else how to climb. if it was only about the impact they caused, and their shamless hubris, I'd support it for sure. but it's not.


spikeddem


Jan 26, 2011, 3:56 PM
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highcamp wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it.

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut


blueeyedclimber wrote:
...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways.

Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links):

the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.


blueeyedclimber wrote:
... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.

Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.
This could not get anymore annoying.

Maybe we need another thread about the situation?


blueeyedclimber


Jan 26, 2011, 4:25 PM
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I am not really that interested in it. Like Fresh said, if this were more about a Global problem, such as destruction of the planet, rather than a climbing ethics squabble, then I too would show more support for it.

As far as the style or ethics or whatever of Patagonia goes, I just don't care. I have never been and as far as I know, I am not ever going there. People that are invested in the Patagonian climbing community should care for sure, but I am not one of those people. These discussions are for the communities themselves. It's hard for me to sympathize with these arguments in the grand scheme of all the problems that the world faces.

But, with that said, good luck with it.


Josh


airscape


Jan 26, 2011, 5:14 PM
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highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I've read some stuff on the internet about the disrespect of etchics that redbull has shown for some other activities as well.

Here is another prime example:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/health-canada-red-bull-guru-petition

Redbull has really dissapointed me and I will never mix their product with vodka again.


dynosore


Jan 26, 2011, 5:36 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
highcamp wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it.

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut


blueeyedclimber wrote:
...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways.

Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links):

the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.


blueeyedclimber wrote:
... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.

Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.
This could not get anymore annoying.

Maybe we need another thread about the situation?

You say you aren't interested in the issue, fine. Some of us have real aspirations to climb there some day and do care. Why do you keep coming back to these threads?


Partner j_ung


Jan 26, 2011, 5:49 PM
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j_ung wrote:
highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

After thinking about it some more, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get involved. I have this visceral reaction to anybody telling somebody else how they should climb, unless it has obvious safety ramifications. That goes doubly for whole groups of people exerting influence in an organized manner. Eww. Besides, all we're talking about now is rap bolting vs. bolting on lead, and other than for the bolter, there's just not that much difference between the two.


zealotnoob


Jan 26, 2011, 7:17 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.


(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jan 26, 2011, 7:46 PM)


spikeddem


Jan 26, 2011, 7:27 PM
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Re: [zealotnoob] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.


rainman0915


Jan 26, 2011, 11:13 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.

Exactly, i dont see the difference here between lama going "well theres no way i can climb that and place bolts on lead" and someone else going "this boulder problem is way too hard, maybe if i just chip a couple extra holds into it i can send its"

Just because lama cant send it in good style doesnt mean no one can


rainman0915


Jan 26, 2011, 11:24 PM
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Lets face it, at this point in time an average climber can reach the top of any summit by any route if bad style and ethics are used. alpinism and mountaineering started as a basically no holds barred get to the summit any means necessary. with all this fancy technology whats to stop someone from getting a solar charger, a power drill and making bolt ladders all the way up any face they want "new route trango towers 5.4 A0 fa 2011" nothing. so if the sport is to endure some manner of style and ethics must be used. its not enough to stand on the summit, its how you got there. and in my book rap bolting has no place in alpine climbing, each first ascent on alpine peaks should be treated as if no one has ever stoop on the peak before and that this is the only way up.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.


moose_droppings


Jan 27, 2011, 1:37 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

Kewl. Maybe someone should take a jackhammer up there and make a nice long crack up that face.


rainman0915


Jan 27, 2011, 1:57 AM
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Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:18 AM
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highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

Nice to know someone around here understands the importance that visiting climbers (especially sponsored ones looking to make money off their "sends") respect the local ethic. Thanks. Too bad a lot idiots who posted in this thread don't have a clue.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:27 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town. If Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 4:42 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:41 AM
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Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:44 AM
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yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town, if Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.

Ethics are not laws. Unacceptable, we'll see. Personally, I find it discussing that people still place pitons when they know it destroys the rock, but they condemn other for placing bolts.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:50 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.

Why are you comparing Gullich's route to Lama's antics? This doesn't make any sense. Lama's team fixed ropes where this practice is considered unacceptable, placed new bolts on a classic route right next to cracks and then lied about what they did. And now he plans to rap bolt the summit wall of Cerro Torre. How does this compare to "Riders on the Storm"?. Do you know what you're talking about?

There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 2:58 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:59 AM
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No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 3:12 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 3:31 AM)


cmagee1


Jan 27, 2011, 3:16 AM
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rainman0915 wrote:
Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)

Cerro Torre happens to be a little different than you average sport crag.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 3:36 AM
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yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 4:18 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.

There has been some remarkable climbing done on Cerro Torre in the past. Perhaps you are unaware of that. So far, Lama's antics don't even come close to measuring up. The only person who put up a bolt ladder was Maestri, and for some unknown reason, Lama seems compelled to add to that desecration. You seem to think that's "rad". I think it sucks. I don't see we have anything else to discuss.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 1:31 PM)


tallnik


Jan 27, 2011, 4:42 AM
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Wow, this thread may make me never return to this site... For years I've tolerated the BS and rhetoric, but it's getting to a point where I no longer have the patience for it.

It seems that a lot of you spent time creating posts based on nothing but vitirol for people who would dare criticize sport climbing in any form. Do your research, this story is not just about rap-bolting. Spend less time writing long winded BS based on opinion - when you could have spent some of the time reading into this story. His team last year left a catastrophe of ropes and lied to the public the placement of anchor bolts. I would suggest you read Rololando Garibotti's post, or Colin Haley's - as they're the ones who took responsibility and went and cleaned up the bolts that had been placed on another route (adjacent to Lama's climb) RIGHT next to bomber gear placements. That alone would have been unacceptable in my eyes.

Do you research... then post...

Perhaps it's time for me to say "goodbye RC.com, hello Supertopo (?), Alpinist (?) "


(This post was edited by tallnik on Jan 27, 2011, 4:43 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 5:14 AM
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I edited this. I have nothing to share.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 27, 2011, 6:44 AM)


rainman0915


Jan 27, 2011, 5:28 AM
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that has already been discussed in previous threads and happened last year. the new development is that he plans to return to the peak with a redbull film crew and rap bolt the headwall.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 2:40 PM
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yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 2:57 PM
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fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 3:59 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 4:11 PM
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fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?


dynosore


Jan 27, 2011, 4:39 PM
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I'm not aware of the local ethic down there. What I do know is this:

The pictures show bolts right next to a bomber granite crack, makes me want to puke

It was done on an existing line, to aid in a corporate promotion

The people who did it lied about how many bolts they placed and where they placed them

Now they're going back to bolt another line, even though all the major accomplishments on that mountain for over 25 years have been done in better style

What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock? Sad that the lowest common denominator often wins out when it comes to "ethics"


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 4:54 PM
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dynosore wrote:
What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock?

I think the tendency for climbers to personify rock is hilarious. Well, this sentence doesn't really do that so much, at least not directly, but still.


i_h8_choss


Jan 27, 2011, 5:02 PM
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just go out and climb in good style......then youŽll be way better than him.

and youŽll be so caught up in yer climbing, you wonŽt even think about all this.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 5:07 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?
I think this petition is going to get shrugged off. it splits the community by asking david lama not to rap-bolt the line he wants to free climb. I see that particular issue as insignificant compared to the damage they did and the hubris they showed to not clean up their mess and to not take responsibility.

rap-bolting has nothing to do with ethics. littering and lying does.


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 5:12 PM
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fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?
I think this petition is going to get shrugged off. it splits the community by asking david lama not to rap-bolt the line he wants to free climb. I see that particular issue as insignificant compared to the damage they did and the hubris they showed to not clean up their mess and to not take responsibility.

rap-bolting has nothing to do with ethics. littering and lying does.
So I assume you have an idea for something that won't get shrugged off. Let's hear it. Let's say that every single person on supertopo, MP, and RC agreed. We have 2-3 threads on each site of a bunch of internet geekeries agreeing on the topic. What would it accomplish then? Be specific.


tomcat_ct


Jan 27, 2011, 5:32 PM
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Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

(This post was edited by tomcat_ct on Jan 27, 2011, 5:35 PM)


DuckBeard


Jan 27, 2011, 5:42 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
DuckBeard wrote:
Has good intentions.

"You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it." what was that about good intentions? in my opinion he is a pussy who doesn't have the balls for alpine climbing. this attitude along with his affiliation with redbull prove to me that he is a wanna be moto X badass and has no place in traditional or alpine climbing.
I was implying that the petition has good intentions. There is no way I could condone what Lama did.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:03 PM
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zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

I neither condone it nor otherwise, and the people who don't mind Lama's actions are as much my community as those who do.

I value the history of Cerro Torre, and I hope Lama reconsiders. But I value other things more, one being a principled neutrality in such events. (And before you ask, yes, my stance would be the same if Lama was coming to the New to do something similar, like retro-bolt the Greatest Show.) I don't believe I have the right to exert influence over other peoples' climbing styles, and if I do have that right, then I don't want the responsibility.

Besides, arguing about climbing ethics and style makes me feel like a self-righteous prick. I control what I have to -- my own style and ethics, which matter far more to me than anybody else's.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jan 27, 2011, 6:17 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:05 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote:
just go out and climb in good style......then youŽll be way better than him.

and youŽll be so caught up in yer climbing, you wonŽt even think about all this.

^^ That.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:15 PM
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tomcat_ct wrote:
Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

You might want to re-check your el Cap and Trango Tower history.


KirbyC


Jan 27, 2011, 6:17 PM
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thks 4 noo signature


notapplicable


Jan 27, 2011, 6:24 PM
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Those who are defending Lama's tactics because it's a sport route and "the rules" are different, might want to consider the fact that the style in which his party climbed last year was profoundly below those adhered to by even the most lax of sport climbers. We are not talking about a simple case of someone bringing sport climbing tactics to the alpine environment, we are talking about a shit show that transcended anything you would see at all but a small handful of crags around the world...and Cerro Torre is not a "crag" by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps this year will be different but I suspect we will see at least a partial repeat of last years insanity.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 6:31 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
So I assume you have an idea for something that won't get shrugged off.
Dear Red Bull,
Per [some law that I hope exists], littering is forbidden in national parks. Here is the photographic evidence showing the litter you failed to clean up last year. We don't trust that you will be able to clean up after yourselves, so this year we will be watching closely. After the project is finished, we'll inspect the route. Any transgressions will be reported to [the authority]. Attached is John Long's Climbing Anchors. Please forward this on to your film crew.

Cc: [the authority]

if no such law exists, then the only option is clearly to whine and beg and draft a petition. I just wish it didn't mention rap-bolting. that's between climbers.

now I'm done pontificating about things that someone else would have to put a lot of work in to execute. it kinda makes me sick.


redlude97


Jan 27, 2011, 6:32 PM
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j_ung wrote:
tomcat_ct wrote:
Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

You might want to re-check your el Cap and Trango Tower history.
Sounds more like Lama was following in those examples


tomcat_ct


Jan 27, 2011, 7:02 PM
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I guess you missed my point.
I'm saying that there has to be a set of rules by which we play this game.As it is, gear has come a long way and made great challenges(be them old or new) more accessible.But rap bolting an alpine route means removing the challenge itself and bringing the mountain down to your level.IMHO that's not acceptable and as part of the climbing community it bothers me.
Who knows what will happen in 50 years and what gear will look like.Bolts are permanent and the damage once done will forever be done.And after all, not all rock is meant to be climbed.
You should read Murder of the Impossible(if you haven't done so already).
Also, look at the Everest circus and what's happening there.I don't want rock climbing to become the same thing;if I can help, even if it's only signing a petition(which probably won't solve anything) I think it's better than doing nothing at all.
Bolts belong on sport crags, not on mountains.


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 7:04 PM
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j_ung wrote:
Besides, arguing about climbing ethics and style makes me feel like a self-righteous prick. I control what I have to -- my own style and ethics, which matter far more to me than anybody else's.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000.01


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 27, 2011, 8:19 PM)


zealotnoob


Jan 27, 2011, 7:34 PM
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I agree that the freedom of individual climbing expression is of the highest value. I agree that Lama is free to do whatever he wants as an individual.

As a sponsored athlete, however, he is an agent of the free market, which is subject to the interests of others. Lama is funded by La Sportiva, I fund La Sportiva (with a good chunk of my change), and I'd rather my money didn't go to sport bolting Cerro Torre. As someone with a small stake in Lama's funding, to say nothing is to condone the activity, which is to compromise my own expression.

I dig the wu wei of principled neutrality, but it walks a fine line with apathy.


(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jan 27, 2011, 7:51 PM)


dynosore


Jan 27, 2011, 8:25 PM
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"freedom of individual climbing expression" is great until you get an area shut down or invite more regulation thanks to a few who lack common sense/decency. I used to ride ATV's when I was a kid, I stayed on the trail like 95% of people. The 5% ruined it for us all and now I have to drive over an hour to get to the nearest area I can legally ride. Sometimes it's better to oppose the 5% than let them ruin it for everyone. As climbing continues to get more popular, we'll either regulate ourselves or someone will do it for us. I for one hope we can do it ourselves, because once the bureaucrats (sp) are in charge they tend to be heavy handed.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 8:39 PM
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tomcat_ct wrote:
I guess you missed my point.

That's possible, however...

In reply to:
I'm saying that there has to be a set of rules by which we play this game.

Define rules. I have guidelines I follow, and I think they're probably stricter and more "traditional," than most of the people espousing traditional ethics and style in this thread. But if you're saying there's some universal set of rules that other people will devise and I am obliged to follow, well, no. I refuse to play that game.

In reply to:
As it is, gear has come a long way and made great challenges(be them old or new) more accessible.But rap bolting an alpine route means removing the challenge itself and bringing the mountain down to your level.IMHO that's not acceptable and as part of the climbing community it bothers me.

It bothers me a bit, too, but that doesn't mean I'll invest myself in how another person climbs. People keep mentioning that they are part of "the community." What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean some nebulous global association by nature of the fact that we all climb? Or do you mean you actually live in Argentina and Cerro Torre is within the realm of the possible for you?

To my knowledge the only person participating here who is actually part of the relevant "community," is Yanqui.

In reply to:
Who knows what will happen in 50 years and what gear will look like.

Who indeed?

In reply to:
Bolts are permanent and the damage once done will forever be done.

No, they aren't. It's almost as easy to remove a wedge bolt and repair its associated damage as it is to place one. You certainly need less equipment for it.

In reply to:
And after all, not all rock is meant to be climbed.

Whether or not rock is meant to be climbed is unarguable, and yet this phrase pops up so often that it's lost its actual meaning. Rock isn't meant or not meant for anything. We should be saying, we don't really have to climb all the rock.

In reply to:
You should read Murder of the Impossible(if you haven't done so already).
Also, look at the Everest circus and what's happening there.I don't want rock climbing to become the same thing;

Maybe your impossible and Messner's are dead, but I assure you, my impossible is still alive and well. Perhaps this the real crux of our disagreement. I have no trouble separating my climbing from that done by others. I'm good to go as long I can climb my own game, and I haven't heard many complaints yet.

In reply to:
if I can help, even if it's only signing a petition(which probably won't solve anything) I think it's better than doing nothing at all.

I tried to be clear that all of my responses described my feelings and that I'm not interested in controlling what others do. If you think you should sign the petition, then by all means do.

In reply to:
Bolts belong on sport crags, not on mountains.

Say what? I thought we were discussing the method by which a few bolts get placed. Are you decrying every alpine bolt in the history of climbing? That, mi amigo, is a whole other ball of wax!


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 8:42 PM
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zealotnoob wrote:
I agree that the freedom of individual climbing expression is of the highest value. I agree that Lama is free to do whatever he wants as an individual.

As a sponsored athlete, however, he is an agent of the free market, which is subject to the interests of others. Lama is funded by La Sportiva, I fund La Sportiva (with a good chunk of my change), and I'd rather my money didn't go to sport bolting Cerro Torre. As someone with a small stake in Lama's funding, to say nothing is to condone the activity, which is to compromise my own expression.

I dig the wu wei of principled neutrality, but it walks a fine line with apathy.

I hope my responses at least demonstrate that I care enough to think about them.


rainman0915


Jan 28, 2011, 7:58 AM
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I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community. Climbing cant survive in the real world without ethics and style, because otherwise the bureaucrats will shut down areas and impose strict restrictions on climbers and im sure we all know that the restrictions basically make it impossible to climb without filling out forms and paying fees and such. a lack of style and ethics will bring an end to the "dirt-bag."

there also seems to be a fair amount of "what ever you do it wont make a difference," which is complete bogus. spamming an inbox is better than doing nothing, even if the companies dont respond at least they know something is up.

i understand the notion that telling others how to climb is bad, and i agree. for the most part. but this is a professional climbing who is supposed to be representing the climbing community as a whole, and right now he is representing us with an "i dont give a fuck" attitude, which does not represent the community as a whole

this is bigger than just one route. this is about what is acceptable on the rock. Do we want all of rock climbing to turn into everest? guides wall hauling a group of old rich people up a thousand foot sport climb? No! sport climbing has its place, and that is on relatively small crags where physical difficulty is pushed to the max for a hundred feet or so. when one goes alpine climbing it is specifically to move away from the safety of following a line of bolts up a face. its about the adventure, the whole experience, not just the physical movement. and if the climbing community doesnt realize this i think our future will be short lived.

as soon as the bureaucrats think there is a problem they WILL step in as they have in the past at certain areas. a huge draw of climbing is the rejection of forms and fees. its about leaving the safety net of civilization and society behind and pushing yourself to the limit mentally and physically. i sure hope that the majority of climbers isnt being represented by the posts in this thread. i am deeply saddened by the disregard shown here, and i seriously hope you all come to your senses and do what is best for the climbing community as a whole, and i dont mean for this situation exclusively.Frown


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 3:15 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community. Climbing cant survive in the real world without ethics and style, because otherwise the bureaucrats will shut down areas and impose strict restrictions on climbers and im sure we all know that the restrictions basically make it impossible to climb without filling out forms and paying fees and such. a lack of style and ethics will bring an end to the "dirt-bag."

there also seems to be a fair amount of "what ever you do it wont make a difference," which is complete bogus. spamming an inbox is better than doing nothing, even if the companies dont respond at least they know something is up.

i understand the notion that telling others how to climb is bad, and i agree. for the most part. but this is a professional climbing who is supposed to be representing the climbing community as a whole, and right now he is representing us with an "i dont give a fuck" attitude, which does not represent the community as a whole

this is bigger than just one route. this is about what is acceptable on the rock. Do we want all of rock climbing to turn into everest? guides wall hauling a group of old rich people up a thousand foot sport climb? No! sport climbing has its place, and that is on relatively small crags where physical difficulty is pushed to the max for a hundred feet or so. when one goes alpine climbing it is specifically to move away from the safety of following a line of bolts up a face. its about the adventure, the whole experience, not just the physical movement. and if the climbing community doesnt realize this i think our future will be short lived.

as soon as the bureaucrats think there is a problem they WILL step in as they have in the past at certain areas. a huge draw of climbing is the rejection of forms and fees. its about leaving the safety net of civilization and society behind and pushing yourself to the limit mentally and physically. i sure hope that the majority of climbers isnt being represented by the posts in this thread. i am deeply saddened by the disregard shown here, and i seriously hope you all come to your senses and do what is best for the climbing community as a whole, and i dont mean for this situation exclusively.Frown

I think that's a bit melodramatic.


spikeddem


Jan 28, 2011, 3:19 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community.
Listen, it's cool if you want a thread on a couple sites for it, but we have 3-4 threads on this site, MP.com has 2-3 threads, and I'm fairly willing to bet the taco has at least one thread about it. Keep it in one thread, seriously. At least on rc.com

I'm sure you're getting pllllllllllenty of fuzzies from mp.com, so what you're really saying is that you're disappointed by rc.com, which makes me a bit sad since it impies you had expectations for rc.com

(+1 about J's melodramatic comment)


jon06


Jan 28, 2011, 7:07 PM
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I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 7:08 PM
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jon06 wrote:
I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.


jbro_135


Jan 28, 2011, 7:23 PM
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j_ung wrote:
jon06 wrote:
I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.

the petition doesn't either?


jon06


Jan 28, 2011, 7:27 PM
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You probably knew the guy, in which case I have no right arguing with you.

If you didn't, than I would say you are wrong.

Seems to me he would have
a) punched lama in the face, chopped his route, and done the route ground up.

or, more likely

b) would have snatched the route out from under lama via a ground up ascent in the first place.

I would love to see some hard man do either of the above!

It pains me when climbers, who thrive in the outdoors, want to industrialize it.

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 8:41 PM
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jon06 wrote:
You probably knew the guy, in which case I have no right arguing with you.

If you didn't, than I would say you are wrong.

Seems to me he would have
a) punched lama in the face, chopped his route, and done the route ground up.

or, more likely

b) would have snatched the route out from under lama via a ground up ascent in the first place.

I would love to see some hard man do either of the above!

It pains me when climbers, who thrive in the outdoors, want to industrialize it.

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!

Okay, wait. What do you mean by "outlawed?" Are you speaking metaphorically? Or are you actually saying legislatures should pass laws to govern climbing and police agencies should enforce them? Cause I have to tell you, if it's the latter, you might be a moron.


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 8:47 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
jon06 wrote:
I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.

the petition doesn't either?

I haven't read it and none of the links appear to work right now, but the description in the OP certainly didn't say anything about legislation to stop lama from rap bolting.


jon06


Jan 28, 2011, 9:17 PM
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about 75% metaphorically

and 25% literally


fresh


Jan 28, 2011, 9:23 PM
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jon06 wrote:
OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!
metaphorical or not, this is a terrible sentiment. I'd rather david lama rap bolt his line and have a bunch of pissed climbers, than have some outside authority block him from climbing in his way.

I am all for, however, the authorities ensuring that they fucking clean up after themelves.


erisspirit


Jan 28, 2011, 9:47 PM
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j_ung wrote:
jon06 wrote:
You probably knew the guy, in which case I have no right arguing with you.

If you didn't, than I would say you are wrong.

Seems to me he would have
a) punched lama in the face, chopped his route, and done the route ground up.

or, more likely

b) would have snatched the route out from under lama via a ground up ascent in the first place.

I would love to see some hard man do either of the above!

It pains me when climbers, who thrive in the outdoors, want to industrialize it.

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!

Okay, wait. What do you mean by "outlawed?" Are you speaking metaphorically? Or are you actually saying legislatures should pass laws to govern climbing and police agencies should enforce them? Cause I have to tell you, if it's the latter, you might be a moron.

+1 The nanny state is already ruining the fun in everything else... Don't really want that can of worms opened :(


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 10:16 PM
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Not that it isn't already happening to some extent. Unfortunately, governing bodies rarely make a distinction in how bolts are placed. They just ban fixed anchors entirely.


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2011, 3:40 PM
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Sorry, haven't read the entire thread, so hopefully I'm not making too much of a fool of myself here.

I signed it. Having moved to Santiago and met climbers who frequent the area, I have learned that folks down here care A LOT about this issue. It is so much so that I'd be surprised if he isn't met with crobars down there. People really don't like what he has done or plans to do. It appears to be a complete disrespect for the local ethics and the community.

As for the argument of not telling people how to climb, we do that all the time with our own local ethics: no bolts in Scotland, bolts on previous gear routes at Rumney, no bolts in IC, no retro-bolting routes that others would find dangerous. However we've decided on whatever rules we've established is irrelevant; they're rules and we're supposed to abide by them.

For me, I'm supporting those who feel this goes against their local ethics. I hope more people do the same.


Partner j_ung


Jan 30, 2011, 4:00 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
As for the argument of not telling people how to climb, we do that all the time with our own local ethics: no bolts in Scotland, bolts on previous gear routes at Rumney, no bolts in IC, no retro-bolting routes that others would find dangerous. However we've decided on whatever rules we've established is irrelevant; they're rules and we're supposed to abide by them.

I don't follow a local ethic. I follow my own, which happens to be in line with what you could call a local ethic. When traveling, however, I make sure my actions are equal to or better than whatever that ethic might be.


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2011, 4:17 PM
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j_ung wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
As for the argument of not telling people how to climb, we do that all the time with our own local ethics: no bolts in Scotland, bolts on previous gear routes at Rumney, no bolts in IC, no retro-bolting routes that others would find dangerous. However we've decided on whatever rules we've established is irrelevant; they're rules and we're supposed to abide by them.

I don't follow a local ethic. I follow my own, which happens to be in line with what you could call a local ethic. When traveling, however, I make sure my actions are equal to or better than whatever that ethic might be.

I think that's really just a technicality, to be honest. OK, it's your choice to follow the local ethic, but you do try to find out what the ethic is and do try to follow it. In my mind, that's really no different than simply following it.

I get your point, but I think the reality of the situation is that even for folks who decide to follow the local ethic they are still respecting that ethic. Lama is choosing not to, OK, so you're OK with him making that decision (and maybe not the decision itself, if I am allowed to guess). Personally, I agree with that because individual liberties, in my opinion, should reign supreme, but that doesn't mean climbers as a collective group should stand by without opinions.

I dunno, I guess like anything, it depends. Activism, in my mind, is a matter of convenience; we're only willing to go as far as we're willing to go. I belive very firmly in individual liberties, but sometimes those liberties infringe on the community. I have personally decided to defer my be belief in individual libertities to the community in this instance, mainly because the community is very strong and cares a lot.


qwert


Jan 31, 2011, 12:15 PM
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New Developements!

http://www.david-lama.com/...pi1%5Bnewsuid%5D=220

Seems like David Lama has decided not to rap bolt the headwall!
More to be found here:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/...torre-good-news.html

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Jan 31, 2011, 12:16 PM)


potreroed


Jan 31, 2011, 12:24 PM
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gmggg wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.

+1

Well said.

It's way too late for that. There have been professional climbers ever since mountain climbing began.


zealotnoob


Jan 31, 2011, 1:55 PM
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qwert wrote:
New Developements!

http://www.david-lama.com/...pi1%5Bnewsuid%5D=220

Seems like David Lama has decided not to rap bolt the headwall!
More to be found here:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/...torre-good-news.html

qwert

Yay!


boymeetsrock


Jan 31, 2011, 2:05 PM
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Good on David for listening to the community. And good on the community for speaking up and policing ourselves.

Now I going to go grab a redbull and knock off this sick redpoint on my new Mammut rope.


TarHeelEMT


Jan 31, 2011, 3:47 PM
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Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.


spikeddem


Jan 31, 2011, 4:04 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.


dynosore


Jan 31, 2011, 4:48 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.


There's nothing to suggest it didn't either. Find something to do besides post on these threads you supposedly don't care about.


spikeddem


Jan 31, 2011, 4:49 PM
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dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.


There's nothing to suggest it didn't either.
I have some blinker fluid to sell to you.


rainman0915


Jan 31, 2011, 6:23 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!


spikeddem


Jan 31, 2011, 7:14 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!
You need blinker fluid, too.


airscape


Feb 1, 2011, 7:48 AM
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rainman0915 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!

You seem to be rather passionate about shit.

Does it really matter?

Are you going to climb it or have you ever climbed it?


airscape


Feb 1, 2011, 7:55 AM
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Who of you guys have ever been there?


rainman0915


Feb 2, 2011, 10:41 PM
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airscape wrote:
rainman0915 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!

You seem to be rather passionate about shit.

Does it really matter?

Are you going to climb it or have you ever climbed it?

have i ever? no. will i ever? im gona try. does is it matter? yes it does.


airscape


Feb 3, 2011, 6:30 AM
Post #98 of 98 (3174 views)
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Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240

Re: [rainman0915] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
airscape wrote:
rainman0915 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.
There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!

You seem to be rather passionate about shit.

Does it really matter?

Are you going to climb it or have you ever climbed it?

have i ever? no. will i ever? im gona try. does is it matter? yes it does.

So no one has physically seen the actual disfigurement of the mountain?

That is very interesting.

So out of the 100000 or so users on this site, maybe about 10 people have actually ever been there, but eveyone should care about a few bolts on this huge ass mountain where almost no one ever goes.

I think the only people that should be concerned about this are people that HAVE climbed there.

THey could all go sit around a table with some coffe and discuss it between the 5 of them.


The problem with this type of hype is that in certain places this shit brings unwanted attention to climbing areas.
Politicians for instance hear "BOLTING MOUNTAINS" without knowing what that means and they make laws. I'm sure this has closed a lot of areas because some asshole wanted people to sign petitions.


Forums : Climbing Information : General

 


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