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i_h8_choss


Jan 27, 2011, 5:02 PM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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just go out and climb in good style......then youŽll be way better than him.

and youŽll be so caught up in yer climbing, you wonŽt even think about all this.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 5:07 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?
I think this petition is going to get shrugged off. it splits the community by asking david lama not to rap-bolt the line he wants to free climb. I see that particular issue as insignificant compared to the damage they did and the hubris they showed to not clean up their mess and to not take responsibility.

rap-bolting has nothing to do with ethics. littering and lying does.


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 5:12 PM
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Re: [fresh] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?
I think this petition is going to get shrugged off. it splits the community by asking david lama not to rap-bolt the line he wants to free climb. I see that particular issue as insignificant compared to the damage they did and the hubris they showed to not clean up their mess and to not take responsibility.

rap-bolting has nothing to do with ethics. littering and lying does.
So I assume you have an idea for something that won't get shrugged off. Let's hear it. Let's say that every single person on supertopo, MP, and RC agreed. We have 2-3 threads on each site of a bunch of internet geekeries agreeing on the topic. What would it accomplish then? Be specific.


tomcat_ct


Jan 27, 2011, 5:32 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

(This post was edited by tomcat_ct on Jan 27, 2011, 5:35 PM)


DuckBeard


Jan 27, 2011, 5:42 PM
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Re: [rainman0915] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
DuckBeard wrote:
Has good intentions.

"You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it." what was that about good intentions? in my opinion he is a pussy who doesn't have the balls for alpine climbing. this attitude along with his affiliation with redbull prove to me that he is a wanna be moto X badass and has no place in traditional or alpine climbing.
I was implying that the petition has good intentions. There is no way I could condone what Lama did.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:03 PM
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Re: [zealotnoob] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

I neither condone it nor otherwise, and the people who don't mind Lama's actions are as much my community as those who do.

I value the history of Cerro Torre, and I hope Lama reconsiders. But I value other things more, one being a principled neutrality in such events. (And before you ask, yes, my stance would be the same if Lama was coming to the New to do something similar, like retro-bolt the Greatest Show.) I don't believe I have the right to exert influence over other peoples' climbing styles, and if I do have that right, then I don't want the responsibility.

Besides, arguing about climbing ethics and style makes me feel like a self-righteous prick. I control what I have to -- my own style and ethics, which matter far more to me than anybody else's.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jan 27, 2011, 6:17 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:05 PM
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Re: [i_h8_choss] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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i_h8_choss wrote:
just go out and climb in good style......then youŽll be way better than him.

and youŽll be so caught up in yer climbing, you wonŽt even think about all this.

^^ That.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 6:15 PM
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Re: [tomcat_ct] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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tomcat_ct wrote:
Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

You might want to re-check your el Cap and Trango Tower history.


KirbyC


Jan 27, 2011, 6:17 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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thks 4 noo signature


notapplicable


Jan 27, 2011, 6:24 PM
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Re: [thenose] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Those who are defending Lama's tactics because it's a sport route and "the rules" are different, might want to consider the fact that the style in which his party climbed last year was profoundly below those adhered to by even the most lax of sport climbers. We are not talking about a simple case of someone bringing sport climbing tactics to the alpine environment, we are talking about a shit show that transcended anything you would see at all but a small handful of crags around the world...and Cerro Torre is not a "crag" by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps this year will be different but I suspect we will see at least a partial repeat of last years insanity.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
So I assume you have an idea for something that won't get shrugged off.
Dear Red Bull,
Per [some law that I hope exists], littering is forbidden in national parks. Here is the photographic evidence showing the litter you failed to clean up last year. We don't trust that you will be able to clean up after yourselves, so this year we will be watching closely. After the project is finished, we'll inspect the route. Any transgressions will be reported to [the authority]. Attached is John Long's Climbing Anchors. Please forward this on to your film crew.

Cc: [the authority]

if no such law exists, then the only option is clearly to whine and beg and draft a petition. I just wish it didn't mention rap-bolting. that's between climbers.

now I'm done pontificating about things that someone else would have to put a lot of work in to execute. it kinda makes me sick.


redlude97


Jan 27, 2011, 6:32 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
tomcat_ct wrote:
Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

You might want to re-check your el Cap and Trango Tower history.
Sounds more like Lama was following in those examples


tomcat_ct


Jan 27, 2011, 7:02 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I guess you missed my point.
I'm saying that there has to be a set of rules by which we play this game.As it is, gear has come a long way and made great challenges(be them old or new) more accessible.But rap bolting an alpine route means removing the challenge itself and bringing the mountain down to your level.IMHO that's not acceptable and as part of the climbing community it bothers me.
Who knows what will happen in 50 years and what gear will look like.Bolts are permanent and the damage once done will forever be done.And after all, not all rock is meant to be climbed.
You should read Murder of the Impossible(if you haven't done so already).
Also, look at the Everest circus and what's happening there.I don't want rock climbing to become the same thing;if I can help, even if it's only signing a petition(which probably won't solve anything) I think it's better than doing nothing at all.
Bolts belong on sport crags, not on mountains.


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 7:04 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Besides, arguing about climbing ethics and style makes me feel like a self-righteous prick. I control what I have to -- my own style and ethics, which matter far more to me than anybody else's.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000.01


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 27, 2011, 8:19 PM)


zealotnoob


Jan 27, 2011, 7:34 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I agree that the freedom of individual climbing expression is of the highest value. I agree that Lama is free to do whatever he wants as an individual.

As a sponsored athlete, however, he is an agent of the free market, which is subject to the interests of others. Lama is funded by La Sportiva, I fund La Sportiva (with a good chunk of my change), and I'd rather my money didn't go to sport bolting Cerro Torre. As someone with a small stake in Lama's funding, to say nothing is to condone the activity, which is to compromise my own expression.

I dig the wu wei of principled neutrality, but it walks a fine line with apathy.


(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jan 27, 2011, 7:51 PM)


dynosore


Jan 27, 2011, 8:25 PM
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"freedom of individual climbing expression" is great until you get an area shut down or invite more regulation thanks to a few who lack common sense/decency. I used to ride ATV's when I was a kid, I stayed on the trail like 95% of people. The 5% ruined it for us all and now I have to drive over an hour to get to the nearest area I can legally ride. Sometimes it's better to oppose the 5% than let them ruin it for everyone. As climbing continues to get more popular, we'll either regulate ourselves or someone will do it for us. I for one hope we can do it ourselves, because once the bureaucrats (sp) are in charge they tend to be heavy handed.


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 8:39 PM
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tomcat_ct wrote:
I guess you missed my point.

That's possible, however...

In reply to:
I'm saying that there has to be a set of rules by which we play this game.

Define rules. I have guidelines I follow, and I think they're probably stricter and more "traditional," than most of the people espousing traditional ethics and style in this thread. But if you're saying there's some universal set of rules that other people will devise and I am obliged to follow, well, no. I refuse to play that game.

In reply to:
As it is, gear has come a long way and made great challenges(be them old or new) more accessible.But rap bolting an alpine route means removing the challenge itself and bringing the mountain down to your level.IMHO that's not acceptable and as part of the climbing community it bothers me.

It bothers me a bit, too, but that doesn't mean I'll invest myself in how another person climbs. People keep mentioning that they are part of "the community." What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean some nebulous global association by nature of the fact that we all climb? Or do you mean you actually live in Argentina and Cerro Torre is within the realm of the possible for you?

To my knowledge the only person participating here who is actually part of the relevant "community," is Yanqui.

In reply to:
Who knows what will happen in 50 years and what gear will look like.

Who indeed?

In reply to:
Bolts are permanent and the damage once done will forever be done.

No, they aren't. It's almost as easy to remove a wedge bolt and repair its associated damage as it is to place one. You certainly need less equipment for it.

In reply to:
And after all, not all rock is meant to be climbed.

Whether or not rock is meant to be climbed is unarguable, and yet this phrase pops up so often that it's lost its actual meaning. Rock isn't meant or not meant for anything. We should be saying, we don't really have to climb all the rock.

In reply to:
You should read Murder of the Impossible(if you haven't done so already).
Also, look at the Everest circus and what's happening there.I don't want rock climbing to become the same thing;

Maybe your impossible and Messner's are dead, but I assure you, my impossible is still alive and well. Perhaps this the real crux of our disagreement. I have no trouble separating my climbing from that done by others. I'm good to go as long I can climb my own game, and I haven't heard many complaints yet.

In reply to:
if I can help, even if it's only signing a petition(which probably won't solve anything) I think it's better than doing nothing at all.

I tried to be clear that all of my responses described my feelings and that I'm not interested in controlling what others do. If you think you should sign the petition, then by all means do.

In reply to:
Bolts belong on sport crags, not on mountains.

Say what? I thought we were discussing the method by which a few bolts get placed. Are you decrying every alpine bolt in the history of climbing? That, mi amigo, is a whole other ball of wax!


Partner j_ung


Jan 27, 2011, 8:42 PM
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zealotnoob wrote:
I agree that the freedom of individual climbing expression is of the highest value. I agree that Lama is free to do whatever he wants as an individual.

As a sponsored athlete, however, he is an agent of the free market, which is subject to the interests of others. Lama is funded by La Sportiva, I fund La Sportiva (with a good chunk of my change), and I'd rather my money didn't go to sport bolting Cerro Torre. As someone with a small stake in Lama's funding, to say nothing is to condone the activity, which is to compromise my own expression.

I dig the wu wei of principled neutrality, but it walks a fine line with apathy.

I hope my responses at least demonstrate that I care enough to think about them.


rainman0915


Jan 28, 2011, 7:58 AM
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I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community. Climbing cant survive in the real world without ethics and style, because otherwise the bureaucrats will shut down areas and impose strict restrictions on climbers and im sure we all know that the restrictions basically make it impossible to climb without filling out forms and paying fees and such. a lack of style and ethics will bring an end to the "dirt-bag."

there also seems to be a fair amount of "what ever you do it wont make a difference," which is complete bogus. spamming an inbox is better than doing nothing, even if the companies dont respond at least they know something is up.

i understand the notion that telling others how to climb is bad, and i agree. for the most part. but this is a professional climbing who is supposed to be representing the climbing community as a whole, and right now he is representing us with an "i dont give a fuck" attitude, which does not represent the community as a whole

this is bigger than just one route. this is about what is acceptable on the rock. Do we want all of rock climbing to turn into everest? guides wall hauling a group of old rich people up a thousand foot sport climb? No! sport climbing has its place, and that is on relatively small crags where physical difficulty is pushed to the max for a hundred feet or so. when one goes alpine climbing it is specifically to move away from the safety of following a line of bolts up a face. its about the adventure, the whole experience, not just the physical movement. and if the climbing community doesnt realize this i think our future will be short lived.

as soon as the bureaucrats think there is a problem they WILL step in as they have in the past at certain areas. a huge draw of climbing is the rejection of forms and fees. its about leaving the safety net of civilization and society behind and pushing yourself to the limit mentally and physically. i sure hope that the majority of climbers isnt being represented by the posts in this thread. i am deeply saddened by the disregard shown here, and i seriously hope you all come to your senses and do what is best for the climbing community as a whole, and i dont mean for this situation exclusively.Frown


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 3:15 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community. Climbing cant survive in the real world without ethics and style, because otherwise the bureaucrats will shut down areas and impose strict restrictions on climbers and im sure we all know that the restrictions basically make it impossible to climb without filling out forms and paying fees and such. a lack of style and ethics will bring an end to the "dirt-bag."

there also seems to be a fair amount of "what ever you do it wont make a difference," which is complete bogus. spamming an inbox is better than doing nothing, even if the companies dont respond at least they know something is up.

i understand the notion that telling others how to climb is bad, and i agree. for the most part. but this is a professional climbing who is supposed to be representing the climbing community as a whole, and right now he is representing us with an "i dont give a fuck" attitude, which does not represent the community as a whole

this is bigger than just one route. this is about what is acceptable on the rock. Do we want all of rock climbing to turn into everest? guides wall hauling a group of old rich people up a thousand foot sport climb? No! sport climbing has its place, and that is on relatively small crags where physical difficulty is pushed to the max for a hundred feet or so. when one goes alpine climbing it is specifically to move away from the safety of following a line of bolts up a face. its about the adventure, the whole experience, not just the physical movement. and if the climbing community doesnt realize this i think our future will be short lived.

as soon as the bureaucrats think there is a problem they WILL step in as they have in the past at certain areas. a huge draw of climbing is the rejection of forms and fees. its about leaving the safety net of civilization and society behind and pushing yourself to the limit mentally and physically. i sure hope that the majority of climbers isnt being represented by the posts in this thread. i am deeply saddened by the disregard shown here, and i seriously hope you all come to your senses and do what is best for the climbing community as a whole, and i dont mean for this situation exclusively.Frown

I think that's a bit melodramatic.


spikeddem


Jan 28, 2011, 3:19 PM
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rainman0915 wrote:
I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community.
Listen, it's cool if you want a thread on a couple sites for it, but we have 3-4 threads on this site, MP.com has 2-3 threads, and I'm fairly willing to bet the taco has at least one thread about it. Keep it in one thread, seriously. At least on rc.com

I'm sure you're getting pllllllllllenty of fuzzies from mp.com, so what you're really saying is that you're disappointed by rc.com, which makes me a bit sad since it impies you had expectations for rc.com

(+1 about J's melodramatic comment)


jon06


Jan 28, 2011, 7:07 PM
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I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)


Partner j_ung


Jan 28, 2011, 7:08 PM
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jon06 wrote:
I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.


jbro_135


Jan 28, 2011, 7:23 PM
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Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
jon06 wrote:
I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.

the petition doesn't either?


jon06


Jan 28, 2011, 7:27 PM
Post #75 of 98 (4308 views)
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Registered: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 99

Re: [j_ung] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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You probably knew the guy, in which case I have no right arguing with you.

If you didn't, than I would say you are wrong.

Seems to me he would have
a) punched lama in the face, chopped his route, and done the route ground up.

or, more likely

b) would have snatched the route out from under lama via a ground up ascent in the first place.

I would love to see some hard man do either of the above!

It pains me when climbers, who thrive in the outdoors, want to industrialize it.

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!

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