A few years ago I was climbing a slab route at Stone MOuntain. Headed up to the first bolt, maybe 40 or 50 feet up. Got my runner on, but started skidding before I could clip the rope. Slid all the way to the ledge the routes started on.
My belayer was more panicked than me, I simply went back up and made the clip the second time around. Some would consider that decking, I didn't.
First, congratulations on coming down that far without getting hurt. You may been very lucky that day.
Can you describe your skid/fall it a bit more detail? Was it in successive stages? Sliding down just 20 feet of slab can build a lot of speed. I am trying to conjure an image of elegantly swooshing down 50 feet of slab without flipping on a rough spot or coming to a hard landing or getting some very serious abrasions. It wouldn't have worked for me. Dropping 50 feet represents some pretty serious energy that has to go somewhere?
How close do you think you came to a qualified decking (injuries that preclude climbing for a week at least)? I guess what I am trying to ask is what do you think kept your experience from being a "decking" with you hurt as a result?
The first bolt was 40 - 50 feet up? I am guessing the first 35 feet were was easy ground.
(This post was edited by dswink on Apr 19, 2011, 8:37 AM)
I consider the being dropped in the gym more of a case of "decking" than the missing the opening moves on a climb. But, I did land flat on my back when I missed the opening moves.
I would tend to agree with you.
A few years ago I was climbing a slab route at Stone MOuntain. Headed up to the first bolt, maybe 40 or 50 feet up. Got my runner on, but started skidding before I could clip the rope. Slid all the way to the ledge the routes started on.
My belayer was more panicked than me, I simply went back up and made the clip the second time around. Some would consider that decking, I didn't.
First, how is that not decking!? You hit the ground from 40-50 ft. It's great that you are comfortable with it and weren't hurt, but most people aren't comfortable hitting the ground from that height.
Second, I'll assume you are talking about the tree ledge at Stone. What route were you doing off the tree ledge that had the 1st bolt 40-50 ft up? I've done every route there and I'm pretty sure there isn't one route with a 1st bolt that high. I'm not always great at judging distances, but I usually overestimate, not underestimate.
I'd have to think that decking doesn't have to include getting hurt. Getting hurt is a probability given the fact that you fall out of control - it might or might not happen based on factors that are entirely separate from the uncontrolled fall.
So this one time, at band camp the gym, I fell while clipping the second bolt. My belayer was out of position and I fell right on to her - she had shoe rubber just below her collar bone. I smashed her to the floor; I think I landed on the padded gym floor pretty comfortably or might have been just above the floor. I don't recall if she lost control of the belay or not.
Did I deck? I don't know, but I didn't get hurt and relatively speaking neither did she. Had it been a second pitch outdoor belay it could have been disastrous.
I'd have to think that decking doesn't have to include getting hurt. Getting hurt is a probability given the fact that you fall out of control - it might or might not happen based on factors that are entirely separate from the uncontrolled fall.
I don't think actually getting hurt means you decked, I just feel that a fall to the ground where injury is Likely and almost expected is decking. Falling 50 feet, slab or not, to the ground is decking in my book, since I would excpect serious injury. Falling 2 feet off the gound is not decking in my book if injury is not likely. Depending on how you define decking, hitting the ground for any reason is not good, since it means you failed at climbing or failed to find an adequate belayer.
I agree with hitting the ground. I just wonder how many of the people who claim to have decked just fell while going tot he first bolts on a sport route.
Given the nature of this particular thread, I would say that decking meant you hit the ground because something went wrong.
Falling before the first bolt would not be decking (in the context of this thread examing preventable accidents). Falling when bouldering/free soloing is not decking.
So hitting the deck and getting injured before getting to the first bolt is, perhaps, a dangerous sport climb but not that relevant for this thread.
Hitting the deck on a trad climb where you haven't yet placed a piece, but could have, maybe counts (40 foot fall, yes, 5 foot fall, no).
Injury is not required.
My $0.02 worth.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 19, 2011, 11:33 PM)
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I suspect that shit happens a lot more often to climbers who believe that shit happens than to climbers who don't. Example: A cam pulls out in a fall for each of two climbers. Climber 1 reasons, "Shit happens." Climber 2 reasons, "I must not have placed that cam properly." Which climber will be more likely to have another cam pull out on him in a fall?
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I suspect that shit happens a lot more often to climbers who believe that shit happens than to climbers who don't. Example: A cam pulls out in a fall for each of two climbers. Climber 1 reasons, "Shit happens." Climber 2 reasons, "I must not have placed that cam properly." Which climber will be more likely to have another cam pull out on him in a fall?
Jay
I would imagine that some of the most serious accidents have involved experienced climbers who have become lazy. I know of a number of climbers who exacted textbook belay technique when they started climbing many years ago, but now regularly let go of the rope while belaying with a GriGri saying, "dude it locks by itself, I have been doing this for xx years, it always locks". But being experienced and choosing to belay incorrectly is not much safer than being inexperienced and belaying incorrectly.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 20, 2011, 7:49 AM)
Given the nature of this particular thread, I would say that decking meant you hit the ground because something went wrong.
Interesting thought.
The horrid thing for me with my decking was that it was totally unexpected. I wasn't getting pumped, I wasn't fiddling with a clip - I simply tried to drop three feet back into the safety of the rope but cratered. It felt like I didn't have time to think at all but hit the ground instantly. I have had thrice the time thinking in bouldering falls that were 10 feet, probably because falling in bouldering is so much more common. Somehow in retrospect it feels like I wasn't even conscious during my fall. There was just something happening and I was playing the main role. Someone told me it felt like a WOOSH and sounded like a heavy, wet plastic bag hitting concrete.
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I suspect that shit happens a lot more often to climbers who believe that shit happens than to climbers who don't. Example: A cam pulls out in a fall for each of two climbers. Climber 1 reasons, "Shit happens." Climber 2 reasons, "I must not have placed that cam properly." Which climber will be more likely to have another cam pull out on him in a fall?
Jay
I know of a number of climbers who exacted textbook belay technique when they started climbing many years ago, but now regularly let go of the rope while belaying with a GriGri saying, "dude it locks by itself, I have been doing this for xx years, it always locks".
It seems you know a number of extraordinarily lucky morons.
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I suspect that shit happens a lot more often to climbers who believe that shit happens than to climbers who don't. Example: A cam pulls out in a fall for each of two climbers. Climber 1 reasons, "Shit happens." Climber 2 reasons, "I must not have placed that cam properly." Which climber will be more likely to have another cam pull out on him in a fall?
Jay
I would imagine that some of the most serious accidents have involved experienced climbers who have become lazy. I know of a number of climbers who exacted textbook belay technique when they started climbing many years ago, but now regularly let go of the rope while belaying with a GriGri saying, "dude it locks by itself, I have been doing this for xx years, it always locks". But being experienced and choosing to belay incorrectly is not much safer than being inexperienced and belaying incorrectly.
I can't say if there is a high incidence of accidents happening from this scenario or not, but this is something I have been seeing a lot of lately, and not just with a Grigri. There is no shortage of climbers who have been belaying for decades and have developed bad habits. Sitting or laying down while belaying a leader, eating/drinking/smoking while belaying a leader, chatting with everyone else around them, and yes...I have even seen facebook posting while belaying...all from "experienced" belayers.
Hitting the deck on a trad climb where you haven't yet placed a piece, but could have, maybe counts (40 foot fall, yes, 5 foot fall, no).
Injury is not required.
My $0.02 worth.
I guess my two posted falls to the dirt/deck do not qualify as decking according to the above criteria. Whew, I would hate to think I was a statistic.
All kidding aside, I tell these tales freely, so others may learn from my mistakes. Criticism of the other posters and trying to make a statistical analysis of a thread such as this is just crazy and serves no one. Listening to the tales, and passing on your little story can potentially give up info that could spare someone the same mistake.
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I suspect that shit happens a lot more often to climbers who believe that shit happens than to climbers who don't. Example: A cam pulls out in a fall for each of two climbers. Climber 1 reasons, "Shit happens." Climber 2 reasons, "I must not have placed that cam properly." Which climber will be more likely to have another cam pull out on him in a fall?
Jay
Yea, I don't disagree with this point, but realizing things can go wrong is not the same as being indifferent/clueless.
My annoyance is with the attitude that by paying attention and being intelligent is 100% proof against anything going wrong and if something went wrong than somebody must have been a F***** idiot (general comment, not directed at anyone in particular).
If somebody causes a horrible wreck on the interstate, it may well have been because they were doing something idiotic (drunk/cell phone/weaving in traffic) it may have just been because they momentarily got lost in a day dream and changed lanes without looking. It would be nice if humans were capable of never making that type of mistake, but that's not reality. But again, thats not the same as being indifferent.
On a slightly different subject, I would encourage all climbers to regurlarly read Accidents in North American Mountaineering. You can learn a lot about all the way different things can go wrong without actually having to had experienced them. It made me start wearing a helmet.
I have a four year old son and I have spent a lot of time trying to reconcile my passion for high risk pursuits like climbing and cycling, both of which have shown a clear potential to take my life and mobility, with my obligations as a father.
After some reflection I have decided that I will be adding redundancy to my system, whether as a second device or back-up knots I haven't decided yet.
Try thinking about it this way. If your son was on the end of the rope instead of you I am sure you would do everything possible to keep him safe.
Sometimes we take risks with our own bodies that we would never accept for our children. You mean just as much to your son as he does to you. Please be safe and I hope he enjoys climbing as much as you do one day.
I had a minor incident that could have been a lot worse. Luckily I was uninjured.
I hit the ground while simul-rappelling with a partner who was relatively new to outdoor climbing. He reached the ground first and was eager to get off belay because the thin rope we were using was burning his hand. He reflexively went about the process of coming off belay, distracted by his hand, his mind not registering that someone was on the other end of the rope. I was about a body length above the ground sitting in my harness and fell straight on my ass. "FUUUU---!!!"
I got away with a bruise and a hard lesson about climbing partners. Needless to say I was pissed at him. This definitely could have gone worse, especially if we were mid-descent on a multi pitch route or some scenario like that.
Now when I simul-rap, I always make sure I go first!
(This post was edited by Croux on Apr 29, 2011, 9:18 PM)
Now when I simul-rap, I always make sure I go first!
What's this about "going first" ... I was under the impression that a simul-rap was done ... well simultaneously. i.e.: close to one another; very close.
As well, and I say this out of theoretical knowledge, not practical knowledge: you really shouldn't be simul-rapping with a beginner. The literature and forums are littered with pretty knowledgeable people saying as much.
I'll take their word for it and keep the technique in my quiver for when I really need it (going fast?)
I use the Petzl basic ascender in TR soloing pretty often myself. I always place a prussic knot just above my ascender then attach the prussic cord to the carabiner holding the ascender. The ascender pushes the prussic cord neatly up the rope all by itself without any intervention from me as I climb. I feel the 20 seconds extra setup time is worth the extra protection it gives me.
Finally, I feel that to deny that there is a certain "hey, shit happens" undercurrent to some of the posts here is just silly.
Safe climbing!
Yea, well put me squarely in the "shit happens" camp. Even very diligent people screw up and if you are in denial about that, may I respectfully suggest that sport may not be for you.
That is not the same thing as being lackadaisical about safety.
I'm not in that camp. I've been climbing 8 years and the guy I normally climb with has 20+ years. Neither of us has ever decked or dropped someone. It could happen, but I do everything possible to prevent it. I don't accept it, I mitigate it. Jt is right about living up (down) to expectations. I ran into a group of youngin's at the gym that had a "it happens" attitude. I refuse to climb with them and lectured them more than once. The gym, which is part of a community center, may be closed now because one of them was dropped by another and seriously hurt (surprise!).
I used to fly to. Pilots always say "there's two types of pilots; those who have landed with the gear up, and those who will!" My mentor/instructor drilled it into me that this is NOT an option. You do a double check every time, and visual confirmation (if possible). Over 30 years at the yoke and she's never done it.
I DO NOT accept that being dropped or, to a lesser extent, decking, are just part of the sport.
Hit the deck from 60 feet. Aftern bouncing off a ledge, landed in a pile of leaves in a boulder field. Thought I was dead as I "floated" around for a while neither existing nor not existing. Great experience, but I wouldn't repeat that fall to have it again. Was wearing a Petzel Meteor II helmet, which saved my life. It broke into 12 pieces, but stayed togeter due to the mesh layer in the foam padding.
Total injuries: 2 broken ribs. The brain damage - no one could tell the difference! Guess that is why it didn't impact my climbing, except that I always wear a Petzel helmet now.
I DO NOT accept that being dropped or, to a lesser extent, decking, are just part of the sport.
And do you believe that everytime you get on the interstate there is some chance you may be hurt/killed in a car crash or do you NOT accept that also???
I guess I'm another one of the old guys that is frankly appalled by this thread. In 20+ years of climbing, across all disciplines from sport climbing to aid, ice and alpine, I've thankfully never decked. None of my partners has ever decked. Admittedly, I choose to only climb with a relative handful (5-6 folks) of similarly experienced partners, which probably skews my personal sample..... With all due respect to everyone in this thread, many of the responses strongly reinforce my decision to be extremely picky about who I climb with.
Do you not mentor any newer climbers? How can n00bs (like myself) get mentoring if experienced climbers are not willing to climb with people with less experience?
I guess I'm another one of the old guys that is frankly appalled by this thread. In 20+ years of climbing, across all disciplines from sport climbing to aid, ice and alpine, I've thankfully never decked. None of my partners has ever decked. Admittedly, I choose to only climb with a relative handful (5-6 folks) of similarly experienced partners, which probably skews my personal sample..... With all due respect to everyone in this thread, many of the responses strongly reinforce my decision to be extremely picky about who I climb with.
Do you not mentor any newer climbers? How can n00bs (like myself) get mentoring if experienced climbers are not willing to climb with people with less experience?
If you want mentoring, you have to find a more experienced climber who finds your company worthwhile.
Do you not mentor any newer climbers? How can n00bs (like myself) get mentoring if experienced climbers are not willing to climb with people with less experience?
61 /
40%
It wouldn't have worked for me. Dropping 50 feet represents some pretty serious energy that has to go somewhere? 
