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tequilaboom
Jul 9, 2011, 1:58 AM
Post #26 of 31
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Registered: May 17, 2011
Posts: 41
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wow you people are so in depth that you're answering questions I didn't have yet, but probably would have asked you in a month! Figgen awesome feedback
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2011, 2:45 AM
Post #27 of 31
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
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cracklover wrote: notapplicable wrote: sbaclimber wrote: Although most of the info seems to be good (I didn't read all of it), the "Bad Angle" shown in Pic 19 (page 16) of the ^^ that PDF is a bit far fetched... In order for it to be a true "bad angle", the force of catching the fall would have to pull the belayer directly out away from the vertical wall. I can only see this happening directly under a roof, and where the first pro is somewhere in or beyond the roof. I agree, there is nothing wrong with the way the anchor was arranged in that picture. Hmm... consider the situation if you're standing on a two foot wide belay ledge and the leader FF2s onto your harness. I think this could put tremendous force onto the anchor: [IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/2r7vp1s.jpg[/IMG] GO
Well I'd say the odds of that are pretty slim, but even so, on a ledge that wide I would be standing back from the wall and probably weighting the anchor a bit so I would extend the lower piece to accommodate.
You're right though. That arrangement, under those circumstances, would not be ideal. No big surprise it's not a one-size-fits-all anchor. Adaptability is the name of the game and the more tricks you have up your sleeve, the better off you are.
Oh, and in the picture they are standing on the ground, so no risk of a FF2 there...
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2011, 2:49 AM
Post #28 of 31
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
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sbaclimber wrote: JimTitt wrote: cracklover wrote: Hmm... consider the situation if you're standing on a two foot wide belay ledge and the leader FF2s onto your harness. I think this could put tremendous force onto the anchor: [IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/2r7vp1s.jpg[/IMG] GO Well, only such a tremendous force you can achieve with your chosen belay device so for most about 4 or 5kN. Re-direct and you be in the 10 region. One has the choice! Jim As an admitted user of the redirect myself (my choice based on choosing a practical solution vs the tested-in-the-lab "safest" solution), I am curious as to what you and cracklover generally do. Care to share?
When bring up a second, it's 50/50 between redirecting and off the harness. When belaying the leader, I go off the harness 95% of the time.
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rescueman
Jul 9, 2011, 3:10 AM
Post #29 of 31
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Registered: Mar 1, 2004
Posts: 439
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notapplicable wrote: When bring up a second, it's 50/50 between redirecting and off the harness. When belaying the leader, I go off the harness 95% of the time.
The other 5% you forgot to put on your harness?????
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sbaclimber
Jul 9, 2011, 8:02 AM
Post #30 of 31
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Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
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rescueman wrote: sbaclimber wrote: I am starting to suspect just about no-one, even here in Germany, actually uses the technique recommended by the DAV (german alpine club)...I know I don't, because feeding slack with an HMS or belay device at chest height or higher is an absolute PITA. You can use that same anchor system (three high and one low) with the belay off the anchor, with any kind of belay device. Don't have to use a Munter unless you're Italian (though Werner Munter was from Switzerland).
IMO, regardless of what belay device you are using, it is still a PITA.
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 9, 2011, 8:03 AM)
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sbaclimber
Jul 9, 2011, 9:07 AM
Post #31 of 31
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Registered: Jan 22, 2004
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rescueman wrote: notapplicable wrote: When bring up a second, it's 50/50 between redirecting and off the harness. When belaying the leader, I go off the harness 95% of the time. The other 5% you forgot to put on your harness????? 
Seeing as this is a bit of a thread drift, and my question really doesn't have anything to do with upward-pull opposition, I have drawn a nice little picture with stick-men and started a poll over here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2515915
Will be interesting to see what the preferred method is....
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