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Aurel42
May 17, 2013, 4:16 AM
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Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts
My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ?
For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...)
Thanks
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squeaka
May 17, 2013, 4:41 AM
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Aurel42 wrote: Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ? For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...) Thanks
You broke your ankle doing that?
Drink more milk
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notapplicable
May 17, 2013, 4:42 AM
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Aurel42 wrote: Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ? For not doing 2 times the same mistake (and being twice in a cast...) Thanks
Clicky
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jonapprill
May 17, 2013, 4:50 AM
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Looks like Papa Woolsey.
I think the reason you got hurt was due to a combination of 'jumping' off a slab and a very static belay. Most falls on slab are due to a foot slipping off a hold and the climber slides down the face. Losing some skin is common but broken bones are uncommon because there is no impact. However by jumping off a slab you 'artificially' created an impact which was magnified by the belay.
Next time either keep climbing until you fall for real or downclimb until even with the draw and then take. Heal quick!
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bearbreeder
May 17, 2013, 6:36 AM
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the belay was very static ... also you jumped outwards ... if you are going to fall just slide down ...
its a myth that one should get a hard catch on slab ... youll swing into the rock as you found out ... id rather cheese grater a bit than get a broken ankle ...
when you are decently above the bolt NEVER say take or get your belayer to give you a hard catch (short of a ground or ledge fall) ... ALWAYS say falling ... and yr belayer should act accordingly
well bolted slab falls are fine IF you know how to fall and IF your belayer knows how to catch you ...
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quasenada
May 17, 2013, 12:47 PM
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I’m starting to avoid to turn the “panic switch” when I can’t keep going (to next piece of pro, bolt, hanger) and have to down climb. Down climbing is NOT the end of the world (likely) and can bring your all around safety levels higher. At least mentally to have a strategy that down climb is “ok” will help on many instances, maybe like that one you were in. Easier said than done for sure.
I hope you have a great recovery, and come back stronger. Thanks for sharing.
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caughtinside
May 17, 2013, 4:57 PM
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Looks like neither the climber nor the belay knew what they were doing there. You can see the super tight rope so there is no give there. The climber jumps off facing out, adding force and twisting midair from the rope so she nailed one foot harder.
Too bad about your injury, plus you were past the crux!
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Aurel42
May 17, 2013, 5:13 PM
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"Looks like Papa Woolsey. "
Waow, it was. -Impressed-
Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...
This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?
By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :)
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drector
May 17, 2013, 5:33 PM
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Yes, if you were facing the wall the your foot would have hit the wall as if you were walking or running backwards.
But why ask when the footage is so obvious? Ankles don't bend sideways very far and you hit your foot on the wall while still falling.
And don't take fun falls on a slab!
Dave
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lkeegan
May 17, 2013, 5:40 PM
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Aurel42 wrote: "Looks like Papa Woolsey. " Waow, it was. -Impressed- Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"... This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ? By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :)
If you had a more dynamic catch, you likely wouldn't have broken your ankle.
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majid_sabet
May 18, 2013, 12:26 AM
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another way to fill this forum
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notapplicable
May 18, 2013, 5:02 PM
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lkeegan wrote: Aurel42 wrote: "Looks like Papa Woolsey. " Waow, it was. -Impressed- Yep, the crux was behind me. On the boulder in the middle, I was just stuck because the next quickdraw was set up too far. I didn't want to fall on the boulder + down on the slab. Anyways, downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"... This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ? By the way, thanks for your answers. Ankle is fine, It happened 3 weeks ago, and I'm already walking :) If you had a more dynamic catch, you likely wouldn't have broken your ankle.
But the combination of jumping off like that and a dynamic belay may have resulted in her flipping over backwards and cracking her skull. It's similar to taking a slab fall above a bulge or overlap. You get airborn there for a second and when youre shoes come back in contact with the rock you almost always flip over or tumble.
The best thing to do there would have been to downclimb and if she fell in the process, she would have just slid it out.
And for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!
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Syd
May 19, 2013, 3:36 AM
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I don't think it would have made much difference what you or your belayer was doing, unless you didn't jump. Even with the softest belay you'd still hit the rock with at least the same velocity. Sliding falls on slabs can also be quite nasty. Slowing the video down shows your foot hitting quite squarely. Best solution for those with weak ankles, is to climb overhangs ;-)
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bearbreeder
May 19, 2013, 4:09 AM
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if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...
ive fallen on lead on slabs enough times, if its well bolted, theres no protruding features and you and yr belayer know what yr doing youre generally fine
many of the more moderate squamish routes into the 5.10s are basically a slab with a crack ... people fall on those all the time
the flip side is that if neither you nor your belayer has experience falling on slab you can screw it up like anything else ...
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jt512
May 19, 2013, 5:47 AM
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notapplicable wrote: And for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!
That advice was obviously not well thought out. First of all, as a general rule, the last three words are superfluous. That is, the general rule is simply,
"For the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab!"
However, once the general rule is broken, then the rule becomes gender-specific. For example, if I am belaying you, then the rule becomes:
If you are male, then for the love or god and all that is holy, don't climb slab in short shorts!
If you are female, then for the love or god and all that is holy, please climb slab in short shorts!
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Syd
May 19, 2013, 7:08 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ...
Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ?
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billl7
May 19, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Aurel42 wrote: ... downclimbing wouldn't have been a big deal but this roc was very "slippery"...
You need to fall more like a man. Get a big fat wallet in your hip pocket. That way, you can sit on it and slide down. (just kidding about the 'man' part)
Aurel42 wrote: This jump sucks: I know. But what if I had more slack ? It could have worked right ?
Rock shoes stick like crazy when landing on them with the forces being into the rock. I badly broke one ankle and badly sprained the other a few years back on some slab without the rope ever coming taught - although the fall was about twice as long and I wasn't oriented even close to optimal. I did land cleanly on my feet though. 
I'll preface the rest of this by saying I don't have a lot of experience falling on slab. But from the little experience that I have ...
Except for all that exposed skin, my tendency on slippery slab and fall-length like that would be to down climb until I slipped and/or came tight against the rope. And when the fall starts and for a short run-out like that, I'd prefer to slide on hips/butt or (maybe) try to run backwards for as long as I could stay upright ... rather than trying to "stick" the landing.
I think what people mean in this case about a softer catch is to reduce the pendulum effect. The more slowly you decelerate, the less fall forces have a chance / time to be converted as force into the rock. Doing so also puts more rope in the system getting the leader farther down from the pendulum point which also reduces the pendulum effect.
I only have one criticism for your belayer: Instead of encouraging you to jump and getting those "excellent" results, I think your belayer should have let your instincts have more play in how and when to do it.
Another option might be to have someone lower a rope to you from above ... or perhaps lower some pants for you to put on ... or rap down themselves and put a long draw on the next bolt so you could clip it and carry on with your lead. It didn't look like there was any time urgency.
Glad your recovery is going well!
Bill L
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bearbreeder
May 19, 2013, 3:08 PM
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Syd wrote: bearbreeder wrote: if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ... Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ?
The person would have swung in as much
Have you fallen much on slabby terrain?
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billl7
May 19, 2013, 3:35 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: Syd wrote: bearbreeder wrote: if the OP just fell and the belayer gave somewhat during the catch chances are he/she would have been fine ... Why would that decrease the horizontal or vertical velocity with which her foot hit the wall ? The person would have swung in as much
Right - that's the ~horizontal.
~Vertically, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much down the slab at touch point that she avoids completely flipping upside down.
Bill L
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bearbreeder
May 19, 2013, 3:58 PM
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billl7 wrote: Right - that's the ~horizontal. ~Vertically, if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much down the slab at touch point that she avoids completely flipping upside down. Bill L
most of the people ive seen flip over on slab is because of getting the rope behind the leg ... which is quite easy on wandering/runnout slab if yr not paying attention ...
im not saying you cant flip over in other ways ... but its MUCH less common ...just lean forward a bit not backwards (like gym climbers tend to do) when you fall, you may lose a bit of skin but thats slab climbing for ya
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billl7
May 19, 2013, 4:19 PM
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In this case, I tend to agree with NA here ...
notapplicable wrote: But the combination of jumping off like that and a dynamic belay may have resulted in her flipping over backwards ....
... unless the belayer has good timing. And clearly this belayer didn't.
Still, the OP is asking if it could have been better and yes - I also agree with you, bearbreeder - that it could have with a soft catch plus with a leader ready to fall feet more than she did.
(This post was edited by billl7 on May 19, 2013, 4:20 PM)
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bandycoot
May 19, 2013, 8:17 PM
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Yes, it would have been different if you were facing the wall. Due to the way you jumped, you impacted the wall with a single foot, as opposed to both. If you were facing the wall, you would have distributed the force between both feet.
You jumped out, which was a terrible idea, that compounded by the abysmal belay increased your impact into the wall.
What you should have done is try to downclimb until you fell. Then you're facing the wall, you minimize the distance fallen as much as possible, and there's no outward jump to slam you back into the wall. Best case scenario, you actually pull off the downclimb and you're at the bolt.
Josh
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Syd
May 20, 2013, 3:30 AM
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billl7 wrote: , if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much ... Bill L
I think that is the point ... if the jump is exactly right such that she jumps out just far enough to have minimum swing in, and the fall ends at the exact moment that the fall ends, impact is small. Anything else and it starts to hurt.
I did some reading and the captstan equation predicts that the tension in the climbing rope will be over 2.3 times that coming from the top draw to the belayer. That is, friction on the top draw has a big effect on reducing the dynamic effects of the dynamic rope. The light weight climber would also reduce dynamic stretch. This is probably why the video looks like a fall on a static.
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bearbreeder
May 20, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Syd wrote: billl7 wrote: , if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much ... Bill L I think that is the point ... if the jump is exactly right such that she jumps out just far enough to have minimum swing in, and the fall ends at the exact moment that the fall ends, impact is small. Anything else and it starts to hurt. I did some reading and the captstan equation predicts that the tension in the climbing rope will be over 2.3 times that coming from the top draw to the belayer. That is, friction on the top draw has a big effect on reducing the dynamic effects of the dynamic rope. The light weight climber would also reduce dynamic stretch. This is probably why the video looks like a fall on a static.
no ... its not hard ... keep a slight bit of slack in the rope ... as the person falls let yourself get pulled in/up a bit, no need to jump ... easy to do
how much do you fall on lead, especially slab?
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Syd
May 20, 2013, 11:34 AM
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We rarely climb slabs. There's a great ugly youtube vid of a sliding slab fall but I can't find it.
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lena_chita
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May 20, 2013, 3:11 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: Syd wrote: billl7 wrote: , if it is done just right, the person isn't moving so fast/much ... Bill L I think that is the point ... if the jump is exactly right such that she jumps out just far enough to have minimum swing in, and the fall ends at the exact moment that the fall ends, impact is small. Anything else and it starts to hurt. I did some reading and the captstan equation predicts that the tension in the climbing rope will be over 2.3 times that coming from the top draw to the belayer. That is, friction on the top draw has a big effect on reducing the dynamic effects of the dynamic rope. The light weight climber would also reduce dynamic stretch. This is probably why the video looks like a fall on a static. no ... its not hard ... keep a slight bit of slack in the rope ... as the person falls let yourself get pulled in/up a bit, no need to jump ... easy to do how much do you fall on lead, especially slab?
I think Syd is talking about the climber jumping, not the belayer jumping in order to give a softer catch.
And no, the climber shouldn't be jumping out, because that creates a swing in, and DEFINITELY should avoid jumping while facing sideways/out.
The timing of the belayer's jump is easy to feel if you are lighter than the climber, but takes some practice to get just right if you are much heavier, as was the case of this (obviously not-very-experienced) belayer. But yes, I agree, not rocket science, easy to learn.
bandycoot pretty much summed it up.
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TradEddie
May 20, 2013, 3:49 PM
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The main mistake was yours, the tight belay was only secondary. You should have been facing the wall, and at the very least tried to downclimb as far as possible.
TE
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healyje
May 20, 2013, 10:40 PM
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Sometimes shit just happens, that too is part of what we call climbing.
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Syd
May 22, 2013, 1:51 AM
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lena_chita wrote: I think Syd is talking about the climber jumping,.
Yes. Of course.
Here's another slab fall vid. Yummy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVnAVcbMoSM
(This post was edited by Syd on May 22, 2013, 1:53 AM)
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ACJ
May 24, 2013, 11:50 PM
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Facing the wall would have helped.
I still would have tried to down climb. It's extremely rare that I jump off.
Softer catch needed but I'm not sure that would have saved you.
Also, no offense to your friends and at the same time it seems clear that their experience and judgement were off if they were screaming at you to "do it" and celebrating the fall.
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sonso45
May 25, 2013, 5:42 PM
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I've fallen on quite a bit of slab. Last time was on Stampede, an 11 at Cochise Stronghold, AZ. I was out of sight of my belayer and he thought I was pulling slack.
I just continued shuffling my feet downhill as I focused on them to remain upright. Basically running backwards downhill until he stopped me @ 20-30' later. Scary.
Another thing is falling on slab and flipping upside down, head first. Bad outcome without a helmet and it can happen (happened to me too).
Like many have said, downclimb. It is an important skill for a leader to master.
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ski.ninja
May 29, 2013, 9:35 AM
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Ankle injuries suck, and after I sprained both of mine (on slabs) last spring I spent about 2 weeks trying to find a way to blame my belayer. It's really not worth the effort. A softer catch may have reduced the severity of your injury, but there's no 'safe' way to jump around like that on rock.
But lucky you, now you get to spend a few hundred hours on your bike with a heart rate monitor, training your aerobic system and rehabing your ankle! I came back from my ankle injuries climbing an extra letter grade harder (after a few weeks) because of all the base fitness work I put in. This is just nature's way of telling you to train more.
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budman
May 29, 2013, 4:42 PM
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Maybe the old school way of climbing is on it's way out!!!!!!!!!!!! Head injuries are usually the worst when you tumble down a slab out of control. So protect you head and try and control the fall. Your fall was intentional. Old wives tale about falling on slabs was to run down the slab facing your partner. Sounds crazy but it works.
A number of years ago, and I won't say how many, practiced this in Tuolumne on some 10+ slabs as I don't climb that level without falling. As you fall you head right or left, depending on which is the best or path of least resistance. As you run, and I do mean run, you run in an arc. The energy is absorbed by changing the acceleration from a gravitational force to a change in direction to some extent. Like a big swing.
There will be a point at which you will not be able to keep up with the acceleration of gravity and you will go head over heels. Head injuries are bad.
Number one rule when climbing slabs, Don't Fall.
Oh yeh! If you intend to try this I recommend starting small.
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Syd
May 30, 2013, 11:23 AM
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budman wrote: Old wives tale about falling on slabs was to run down the slab facing your partner. Sounds crazy but it works.
I'd love to see a video of it. Do you know of any ?
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budman
Jun 7, 2013, 5:20 PM
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Wish I had known, I was just there and could have made one if I could get up the nerve again to fall on slabs. Scared the crap out of myself on Goodrich Pinnacle in the Valley and only did the first 4 pitches. Sorry I know of no videos.
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Syd
Jun 7, 2013, 10:51 PM
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I read an article recently (and I'll be damned if I can find it again) that recommended against leading on routes under 5.10 and claimed that many 5.13 climbers are terrified of falling on a 5.8 slab.
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sonso45
Jun 8, 2013, 4:16 AM
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I have to disagree that falling on a slab is best done by facing your partner and running at him. When I fall, I don't have time to turn around. Just keep upright and run/shuffle feet to stay upright. I've climbed and fallen on lots of slab.
That is the only technique I've used and seen. Love to see a video of someone running facing downhill too.
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lena_chita
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Jun 8, 2013, 12:45 PM
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Syd wrote: I read an article recently (and I'll be damned if I can find it again) that recommended against leading on routes under 5.10 and claimed that many 5.13 climbers are terrified of falling on a 5.8 slab.
Of course 5.13 climbers are terrified of falling on 5.8 slab! So they just don't fall on it.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Jul 11, 2013, 3:47 PM
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Aurel42 wrote: Here's the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3A0_7Lq_ts My question is: would it have been different if I was facing the wall ?
That is a very good example of what NOT to do when falling and when belaying in that situation.
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