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onelung
Jun 24, 2003, 1:08 AM
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That is indeed a point that so many are missing.
Damn I hauled 120 Tecate's up to the base of Zodiac. Then my bud rapped, hitched a ride to the village and back then jummared 7 pitches with a case on his back. Hilarious! and thirst quenching.
Its all good, Lets keep the thread alive!
bill
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muncher
Jun 24, 2003, 1:20 AM
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Just to keep things going.
What bugs me is how many people say they smoke a few spliffs at the crag or boulders. Why the f would you want to do that, bongs are so much better.
I frequently, but not always have a few puffs before getting on a climb or going surfing. As has been stated before, noone is trying to say that that it is great to get totally wasted and going climbing but that just having a little can be fine. I rarely drink these days and it has never crossed my mind to drink at the crag but if people can do it sensibly then so be it. as to smoking pot before climbing, if I can go surfing after having a few bongs I can certaily climb safely. Surfing fast sucky waves requires much faster reflexes and reaction times than belaying.
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is the point of view I write from, climbing isn't something you do when you can get someone to sit for the kids, you want to look cool for your new girlfriend, or finally get one weekend out of two months, it is a way of life practiced everyday. My perspective is probably drastically different from yours. I scare people like you at the crag. We are both allowed to go on living." Good grief man...no need to get snippy. This thread obviously irked you pretty well, we get it. :shock:
Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand.
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 1:57 AM
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In reply to: Why are you contriving this connection between drinking a beer or two (or burning some fat dank) and climbing, and accidents at the crags, when it is in fact the stone-sober folks who fall to the ground and go "boom" 99.999% of the time? (Buzzer sounds) Sorry, nice try, wrong answer.
And...
In reply to: And again I say that you better stop hanging around with that non-drinking, non-pot-smoking crowd, bro... they seem to be the ones that die by the dozens, while climbing, rapping, and hiking in or out, every year, from Iowa to Everest.....
This is the most absurd logic I've EVER heard. Hilarious!
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mhr2000
Jun 24, 2003, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand.
I know that remark was not aimed at me, but I will respond. I don't give a crap how good a climber AlpineStylist is because it still doesn't make him a better person then anyone else. I could care less if he drinks an entire keg of beer before he climbs that's his business. I'm just absolutely shocked at his idiotic statements that just because somebody can't handle one beer or chooses not to drink makes them some kind of loser. I think only a true loser would say and believe such a thing.
AlpineStylist... party on busta, you da man homy!
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whistleblower
Jun 24, 2003, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gretchino, if you knew how tough and good a climber AlpineStylist is, you'd understand. I know that remark was not aimed at me, but I will respond. I don't give a crap how good a climber AlpineStylist is because it still doesn't make him a better person then anyone else. I could care less if he drinks an entire keg of beer before he climbs that's his business. I'm just absolutely shocked at his idiotic statements that just because somebody can't handle one beer or chooses not to drink makes them some kind of loser. I think only a true loser would say and believe such a thing. AlpineStylist... party on busta, you da man homy!
LOL... You're right MHR, I recant. I happen to have a lot of respect for AlpineStylist's ascents... however, I wouldn't climb with him - I just wouldn't feel safe =)
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ronamick
Jun 24, 2003, 2:11 AM
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All boulderers in the know are aware that beer is a valuable training aid.
Beer hydrates, provides nutrients and carbohydrates, and when taken properly gives one the gumption to make it up problems otherwise impossible.
Please note that beer applications for bouldering are not the same as for roped climbing!! Best to be on your toes when handling the rope, and the brewer's advice to "drink responsibly" is the rule of thumb for climbs involving ropes and gear.
San Diego boulderers have always made a six pack as much a part of their essential gear as their chalk bag, and beer has figured in the first ascent of many, if not most of our best problems!
I attribute my 150-odd FA's in San Diego County to a hearty regimen of beer and hostess fruit pies. Often, while working out a difficult new problem, deep in some god forsaken and brush choked ravine, I have rested for one final hurrah- and to give that 5th beer a chance to kick in- then topped out on that baby and sent it home to mama.
Now, even the most experienced boulderer doesn't just slam a sixer and go jump on the rock. Everyone will develop their own beer and bouldering protocol, but here is how I ride the beer train to glory.
The first beer is the quencher. It is consumed only after you get to where you are going to climb, and never on the way. The second beer is the primer. It is typically opened after the shoes and chalkbag are on, and the clothing adjusted for climbing. This beer may be carried along as you boulder, but be aware that a carried beer quickly loses its fizz! Best to finish it while it still has its zip, and the empty can be tossed back to the vicinity of your packs.
Beers 3 & 4 are the "meat and potato" beers, the ones that will propel a cagey climber to glory, but their consumption must be metered carefully!
Drink them too quickly and you will be worthlessly alcohol impaired, as well as winding up short at day's end.
Me and my friends space the beers by declaring that a certain number of problems must be climbed before cracking another cylinder, unless it's a hot day, when one sweats out the effects of alcohol almost immediately.
If done properly, beer #4 should put you near the end of the day, and with a full head of steam. A fistfull of asprin at the beginning of the day will make sure that any minor tweaks and aches go unnoticed at this point
(an 800mg dose of asprin or ibuprofin is perfect for me, younger climbers will want a little less).
Now is the time to tackle that nemesis- not in a drunken stupor, but riding the crest of a carefully tuned alcohol swell. Still in full control, but unimpeded by paranoia and mental clutter, unhampered by minor physical dings, and with a tank full of guts and muscle just rarin' to go.
Beer 5 is the secret weapon. Blown out and still can't turn that V6 mantle? Got a palm slap that keeps on slipping when it needs to be sticking? Take a breather and savor big #5; the boulderman's boost. Drink it slowly and get recovered in the shade. Clean your shoes and visualize the sequence of the problem. Center your chi, and give it everything you got... with cylinder 5 as your co-pilot.
Beer 6 is the end of the day refreshment. Sun's nearly down, tips are fried, forearms are throbbing with 200psi of lactic acid and you are scraped from the bushes and covered with chalk. Enjoy it as you remember the day. There ya go.
Tips from the pros:
* Don't expect to beg beers from fellow climbers out in the field! Those babies are solid gold out beyond the Liquor stores' domain, so bring your own if you want 'em.
* Forget coolers and fancy crap. Learn to love 'em warm.
* Go by the "tip & guzzle" rule. Knock over a beer and you are required to grab it and chug it down ON THE SPOT. Keeps tip-overs to a minimum, and keeps tipped ones from being wasted.
* Don't let an open beer sit around! It'll go flat and collect bugs. If you aren't ready for it, don't pop the top.
* Pack out every can. Don't litter.
* Fer chrissakes finish the thing. Don't put it down with a little left. It's only backwash if you nurse the last inch too long. Drain that punk as part of a hearty tug.
* Go for the gold.
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curt
Jun 24, 2003, 2:17 AM
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Ron,
That's exactly what I wanted to write above, but just didn't have the energy.
Curt
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hammer_
Jun 24, 2003, 2:34 AM
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I too climb more than I work and yes,it does become a lifestyle. Every once in a while i'll run across a guy like you ,Alpinestylest, and have to give a little chuckle. After all their experience and mini-epics they still don't truely know what climbing is all about. As for the drinking thing, sure I don't see the harm in having a swig or two of whisky and a colt at the top of a long a difficult route in celibration, moderation is the key thats all.
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oldandintheway
Jun 24, 2003, 2:40 AM
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Drinking while climbing? No thanks except while ascending Barstool Mtn. Back at camp fine. On route? No way.
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dingus
Jun 24, 2003, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: All boulderers in the know are aware that beer is a valuable training aid.
Ron, that was beautiful man. I almost had a tear in my eye as I read that. I have a lone bottle of some mexican beer in my fridge, left over from the weekend. Reckon I'll go drink it and think of fond bouldering days gone by.
Here's to your 'better bouldering through beer' regime.
(don't forget the bic my man)
DMT
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jefffski
Jun 24, 2003, 4:28 AM
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Although some comments here have been less than helpful, others, even from those i don't agree with motivated me to do some research on the effects of light drinking--as has been described.
i've included all the websites i've visited. all of them are bonafide sites.
First of all you might want to calculate your BAC, that is blood alcohol concentration. this is related to your weight. Then consider at which point impairment kicks in. it's not .08. If you climb soon after a full beer,enter 0.5 hours.
As well consider tolerance, as so many of you claim to have. but functional tolerance, as you may read below, is not the same as measurable motor impairment.
finally does alcohol reduce stress? The conclusions here are surprising.
The results can be seen as slightly ambiguous. So i ask you--since climbing is an inherently risky activity, i hope we would all agree, why potentially (i use that word carefully because some of you will argue that the studies don't appply to you-but they might!), add to that risk by consuming any alcohol?
My conclusion is that even if you are a "good" drinker, and can put away lots before you get "drunk", in all liklihood you are impaired well before you feel its effects.
To measure your BAC
http://inquirer.philly.com/specials/2002/dui/bac.asp
Specific Effects(related to the Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC)
http://www.indiana.edu/~adic/effects.html
The effects of alcohol intoxication are greatly influenced by individual variations among users. Some users may become intoxicated at a much lower Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) level than is shown.
0.02-0.03 BAC: No loss of coordination, slight euphoria and loss of shyness. Depressant effects are not apparent.
0.04-0.06 BAC: Feeling of well-being, relaxation, lower inhibitions, sensation of warmth. Euphoria. Some minor impairment of reasoning and memory, lowering of caution.
0.07-0.09 BAC: Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgement and self- control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired.
0.10-0.125 BAC: Significant impairment of motor coordination and loss of good judgement. Speech may be slurred; balance, vision, reaction time and hearing will be impaired. Euphoria. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle at this level of intoxication.
0.13-0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria is beginning to appear.
0.16-0.20 BAC: Dysphoria (anxiety, restlessness) predominates, nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a "sloppy drunk."
0.25 BAC: Needs assistance in walking; total mental confusion. Dysphoria with nausea and some vomiting.
0.30 BAC: Loss of consciousness.
0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma, possible death due to respiratory arrest.
Functional Tolerance
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa28.htm
Humans and animals develop tolerance when their brain functions adapt to compensate for the disruption caused by alcohol in both their behavior and their bodily functions. This adaptation is called functional tolerance (2). Chronic heavy drinkers display functional tolerance when they show few obvious signs of intoxication even at high blood alcohol concentrations (BAC's), which in others would be incapacitating or even fatal (3). Because the drinker does not experience significant behavioral impairment as a result of drinking, tolerance may facilitate the consumption of increasing amounts of alcohol. This can result in physical dependence and alcohol-related organ damage.
However, functional tolerance does not develop at the same rate for all alcohol effects (4-6). Consequently, a person may be able to perform some tasks after consuming alcohol while being impaired in performing others. In one study, young men developed tolerance more quickly when conducting a task requiring mental functions, such as taking a test, than when conducting a task requiring eye-hand coordination (4), such as driving a car. Development of tolerance to different alcohol effects at different rates also can influence how much a person drinks. Rapid development of tolerance to unpleasant, but not to pleasurable, alcohol effects could promote increased alcohol consumption (7).
Motor skill impairment
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa16.htm
Motor vehicle crashes. While there is some evidence to suggest that low blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) bear little relationship to road crashes, impairment of driving-related skills by alcohol has been found to begin at 0.05 percent BAC or lower, with rapidly progressing deterioration as the BAC rises (22). A man weighing 140 pounds might attain a BAC of 0.05 percent after two drinks
Does Drinking Reduce or Induce Stress?
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa32.htm
Some studies have reported that acute exposure to low doses of alcohol may reduce the response to a stressor in animals and humans. For example, low doses of alcohol reduced the stress response in rats subjected to strenuous activity in a running wheel (3). In humans, a low dose of alcohol improved performance of a complex mental problem-solving task under stressful conditions (3). However , in some individuals, at certain doses, alcohol may induce rather than reduce the body's stress response (16).
Much research demonstrates that alcohol actually induces the stress response by stimulating hormone release by the hypothalamus, pituitary, and adrenal glands (4,6,17,). This finding has been demonstrated in animal studies. In one study with rats, the administration of alcohol initiated the physiological stress response, measured by increased levels of corticosterone (19). In addition to stimulating the hormonal stress response, chronic exposure to alcohol also results in an increase in adrenaline (20).
More on motor skills and impairment
http://www.silcom.com/~sbadp/effects/bac.htm
In a reveiw of studies of alcohol-related crashes, reaction time, tracking ability, concentrated attention ability, divided attention performance, information process capability, visual functions, perceptions, and psycho-motor performance, impairment i n all these areas was significant at blood concentrations of 0.05 percent. Impairement first appeared in many of these important areas of performance at blood alcohol concentrations of 0.02 percent, substantially below the legal standard in most States f or drunkenness, which is 0.08 percent.
conclusions
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa25.htm
Results of epidemiologic and experimental studies permit certain conclusions to be drawn. First, the degree of impairment depends on the complexity of the task involved as well as the BAC (1). Second, the magnitude of alcohol-induced impairment rises as BAC increases and dissipates as alcohol is eliminated from the body. Third, at a given BAC, some skills are more impaired than others (12). Finally, investigators have not found an absolute BAC threshold below which there is no impairment of any kind. Certain skills important for driving are impaired at 0.01 to 0.02 percent BAC, the lowest levels that can be measured reliably by commonly used devices (17).
hope this has been helpful information. btw, i love good beer-especially after a hard day of climbing or a week on a cold mountain.
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jefffski
Jun 24, 2003, 4:30 AM
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note: all comments below web addresses are direct quotes from those sites.
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 4:30 AM
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Ahem... I'm one of those who has drank more than I've worked, worked more I've climbed, climbed more more than I drank, and partook more than I worked. Anyway you get the picture. After all this and and a good many other vises not PC I find I'm still alive. One of the more recent manifestations of the current day Rock-No Phobe is the everpresent sense of responsibility for every one elses safety. F**k I do this to be on my own and take control of my own moment. I really don't need someone else telling me they think I'm out of my mind to have a beer before coffee or place that alien in that flaring pocket. Now while I don't in my current regime imbibe or partake I do relish the many fond memories of past odysseys. So give it break folks and get back to climbing, with or without your PBR and Red Bull! :roll:
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climbzdrunk
Jun 24, 2003, 5:01 AM
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I've got news for you amateurs:
Beer Ain't drinkin'!!
8)
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pehperboy
Jun 24, 2003, 5:07 AM
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As said in a previous post, this isn't about Mormonizing climbing. To repeat what a good number of others have said, imbibe/partake if you wish - moderately before or get wasted after - but climbing drunk/stoned creates a whole lot of potential problems.
Sure cologman, enjoy the moment on your own. But if some drunk and/or doped up dufus causes a serious injury to him or herself or someone else there are inescapable consequences. Someone (usually the sober ones at the crag) have to assist in in a rescue and then THEY are put at some risk. And then if it's particularly serious, like a fatality, The Man comes around and starts asking questions. That can have a serious outcome.
To list a few: possible closure of a good crag, criminal charges, a big fat lawsuit, new laws get passed about climbing, life insurance for anyone involved in climbing becomes either more ridiculously expensive or impossilbe to get, publicity makes all climbers look like drunk/stoned irresponsible yahoos and I'm sure there are others.
So, if a climber wants to drink that's his or her business. If they want to climb drunk or stoned that DOES become the business of the sober people they are climbing with. There are too many good reasons not to climb with someone all messed up on drink or dope.
There's been talk about the "good old days" when before big walls became popular climbers would hoist up loads of drink, get gunned, have a more than a few splifs on the home made portaledge, puke it all out and the finish the routes we all now take for granted. Have to wonder where climbing would be now if that's the sort of activity that defined the sport.
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rockclimber_gurl
Jun 24, 2003, 5:09 AM
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you should have an edge when you climb! :wink:
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onelung
Jun 24, 2003, 6:25 AM
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Hey there has been some barely decent points made by all..... but as I read I started to ask ....How many non-juice boys are trad or aid climbers? I will bet that most all non drinking/climbing folk are sport climbers? and thats fine...its our own choice to make.
Am I wrong?
Boulder folks do some pretty awesome crap, Sport fellas are safe. I'll bet most anti juice posters on this thread are sport fellas. Sure there may be one that isnt.....naw I doubt it.
Its all good,
bill
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sharpender
Jun 24, 2003, 7:07 AM
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Ya gotta love it. Drinken and climben, smoken n climben. My experience is limited here, The only time I've ever mixed the two was.... woah right there - the beers stay in the cooler till the craggin's done. Back in the good old days there were two climbers we called the AA boys on accounta they both had last names that started with A, but I kinda wondered if Alchoholics Anonymous didn't figure in somehow cause on a hot day they'd set their cans of Anheiser Bush down and power over some 5.11 mantle. Awesome. But the funniest thing I ever saw was the two guys on top rope that took a toke break. They went back to climben and the guy on the line suddenly went, "Woah, I forgot to tie back in." He He. Dumb stoned shits. Lucky, he was only two moves off the ground. Chemical impairment is about as smart on the rock as it is on a motorcylce - that killed my brother in law. I'm a trad guy but I hold my water for after climbing :roll:
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ajkclay
Jun 24, 2003, 2:32 PM
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I don't think that this is a thread about tee-totalling, it's more about knowing when [brown]it's appropriate to drink etc. [/brown]
There is a time and a place for [cyan]everything, and climbing isn't the time to drink.[/cyan](not before or during anyway)
If you have to drink then climb, maybe you aren't getting the same levelof enjoyment from it as those who don't have to.
Or maybe you are scared sh*tless, [brown]and need the Dutch courage, [/brown]dunno, it's just a theory...... :roll:
PS If you aren't seeing[cyan] this in black,[/cyan] are not in a sober or straight enough state of mind to reply to thisor any other topic :P
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 3:16 PM
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Well, pepherboy the sermonizing doesn't play well here. I wouldn't personally put myself in a position of climbing with someone I suspected of being less than sharp. This doesn't mean I wouldn't take the assistance of an Alpinesytlist or any number of other Blokes who may or may not have had a beer/s in the last 12 - 24 or less and feel far safer than 90% of the posters on this site. That doesn't mean those 90% aren't capable it just means some people are exceedingly capable. Personally one of the things I think our society has faltered on in the last 50 years or so and certainly the last 25 is the need to take every issue to an extreme. Resulting in over regulation, over litigation and less personal freedom. By simply beating the bandwagon on issues of this type we as a people have brought nearly every issue we have confronted to the point of legislation, simply because the fervor of the moment carries away our desire to protect our personal freedoms in the supposed name of everyone elses greater good. Sure having a beer or two while climbing isn't the smartest move but then I suspect there are any number of you naysayers who have stepped across one of our societal lines at one time or another. Are you ostericised because of it, hell no. Get a life, and I'll hang with the BBR.
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flamer
Jun 24, 2003, 3:24 PM
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forget it....
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pehperboy
Jun 24, 2003, 3:28 PM
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And just who's preaching to who here?
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czarcastic
Jun 24, 2003, 3:40 PM
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Ron that was the funniest post I have read in awhile, thanks for taking the time to make me laugh my a__ off. We have a pretty similar ritual when my friends and I boulder, too fuuny!!
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cologman
Jun 24, 2003, 3:49 PM
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You're right, touche'
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