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trad... big no no
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brutusofwyde


Jul 25, 2003, 9:24 PM
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Squeeze chimney? You're going to worry about a gri gri when your humping a rack of #5 Camelots, big bros and Valley Giants?
(There, I mentioned Valley Giants....do I get a discount?)

I used Valley Giants, big bros, and #5 camalots three weeks ago on the FA of Wagon Train in the Sonora Pass area. I don't carry any of that stuff on the harness in squeeze chimneys. The second sends up what I need on the tag line. So, no, I'm not carrying a grigri, or any of that pro, through the squeeze chimney.

But the grigri still stayed in the truck... humping all those big cams to the base of the climb was quite enough work, thank you, and I still needed my Jaws (which I had with me) for the double rope rap.

Brutus


papounet


Jul 25, 2003, 10:02 PM
Post #102 of 118 (7538 views)
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Now apply that to the context of this thread, trad climbing. A step further, to a hanging John Long style belay. How much jumping are you going to do? I think the best context to look at it is that the belayer will be somewhat static in position. Having a device that allows some rope slip will provide the next best thing to a jump with a static device.

Point taken.

In fact whenever I hear trad, I think of mountainous, multi-pitch trad routes => which in my view means double rope (because of possible rappel/bail-out). for which of course the Grigri i snot apropriate


brutusofwyde


Jul 26, 2003, 12:54 AM
Post #103 of 118 (7538 views)
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Brutus, tell me you had to look up those weights, and that you don't have them all memorized.

-Jay

Uhhh... :oops:
I did put them out there from memory.
But I think the Neutrinos are actually only 36 grams... its Dovals that are 37. And what oval weighs what, well, it depends on the brand.

I only had the stove and Neutrino weights memorized because I spent a lot of time researching before replacing my entire set of carabiners with Neutrinos, and the stove because of similar research and special ordering of the titaniom Snowpeak.

I confess I don't have all the cam weights memorized, but on the average I've reduced the weight of my backcountry rack by about 30-40% from a similar rack built with ovals and camalots. and for me, on those desperate 5.6 leads, that weight savings makes a huge difference.

Brutus, who saved 5 ounces each by sawing his rawl drill handles in half


stevematthys


Jul 27, 2003, 5:36 AM
Post #104 of 118 (7538 views)
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grigri's should not be used for trad. period. any auto-locking belay device will put more force on the gear then any atc will. even if the gear is bombproof i would rather have my belayer be using an atc instead of a grigri.

ever notice in gyms how the guys with grigri's will go flying up in the air when their partner falls? and the guys with atc's do not fly up nearly as much? take that and put it on a loose nut on a run out slab. which belay device would you rather your belayer have?


the_crawler


Aug 2, 2003, 11:25 PM
Post #105 of 118 (7538 views)
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I know this isn't really the point of this decusion, (now that I have read through all the previous post I believe the point(s) are to 1. & 2. argue about what is "right" or "wrong" and 3. find statistical data relating to fall forces on different parts of the belay system) but what do you think holds the greater danger statistically, Being dropped by you belayer (letting go of the break hand) or taking a fall that generates enough force to rip pieces from the rock. The reason I bring it up is, reading the post I hear three types of respones, 1. No gri gri for trad, ever no matter what the numbers say 2. I'm using my gri gri for trad no matter what the numbers say 3. The numbers don't mean jack in the real world situations but what are they. The discusion stems around saftey for the climber (I like that cause thats my A$$ too) but trad climbing saftey is about minimizing risk, the most dangerous things (highest probabilty of getting you hurt) need to be addressed first followed by the lesser in order. Since no one is privledged to that order positively at any give time, you have to be able to adapt to the situation while in the situation to the best of your ability. I believe that climbers who are unwilling or unable to change their opinions or views on the order are more dangerous than any device made by Petzl.


eltusko


Aug 3, 2003, 12:42 AM
Post #106 of 118 (7538 views)
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Ok, here's my opinion, it's probably been stated over and over, but what the hell. I've got an atc and reverso. I've got a gri-gri sitting on my desk at work. I play with it when I'm bored. I use the reverso primarily and the atc as a backup if I or a partner lose another device. I figure that you don't have to worry about the "undynamic" belay of a gri-gri on lead falls if you're using either one of those. If you want to let your climber hang for some reason, such as drilling bolts, just use an autoblock or prussik to hold eliminate the need for you to hold tension on your device. Reverso + ATC + Prussik loop = lighter than 1 gri-gri, and the two devices work on double ropes for rappel, with an autoblock backup. I see no reason to lug my office paper weight gri-gri along.


c_kryll


Aug 3, 2003, 1:34 AM
Post #107 of 118 (7538 views)
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Just my $.02 but for those of you that complain you can't rapell on doubles with a gri-gri there is a way but I'm sure to get flamed for it.

Method 1: On anchors with rings or chains, you have the ropes tied together with the knot on one side of the rings. Using the rope that you are NOT planning on pulling to retrieve the ropes you attache your Gri-Gri. As you rap down the rope will be weighted so the knot braces against the rings, the climber with the gri-gri goes first so that the second can readjust the rope if needed and rap down as normal. Pull the rope as normal to retrieve.

Method 2: Simul Rap with your partner, there by only utilizing one strand of rope per climber. Pull rope as normal to retreive.

It was also asked how to increase friction on a reverso when using 1/2 or skinny ropes to reduce rope burn. I read good suggestions about adding an extra carabiner, turning the reverso around so the rope runs of the thin edge. You can also extend your device with a sling by either girth hitch or bunny ears to the belay loop. Adv: allows more control over a device. Dis-Adv: Puts rapell device at head level and loose hair may get caught or if you need to jumar back up it adds a step.

I highly recommend using an Auto-Block (8mm Cord) with any rapell setup, this gives your brake hand a place to sit and reduce the heat on your skin.

jmho

Chris


joegoesup


Aug 6, 2003, 6:41 PM
Post #108 of 118 (7538 views)
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I use the grigi in the gym and once and a while on sport, but never on trad. I think it puts too much force on the por, and it is hard to feed rope quickly. I use an atc or tube on trad.


bustinmins


Aug 16, 2003, 9:33 AM
Post #109 of 118 (7538 views)
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Well I've certainly learned a lot in this post. I'm a proud owner of a Reverso, ATC and Grigri.

I didn't understand why Petzl said don't use the Grigri on "Adventure Climbs" and now I do.

I will use my Grigri when being belayed in sport or top by a newbie partner - for my comfort. I will also use it myself because it is easier to just let them lock and stare at the wall while they figure out their next move.

However - I have seen how well the Reverso works in the auto-lock mode and will use that as my primary device for trad leading. I also like the way it grabs on the belay. However - I have never repelled with it - I can't see much difference with it compared to the atc - except that it feeds a little more poorly than the atc.

Always open to more information - keep typing - we newbies appreciate your opinions.

JD


badphish


Aug 19, 2003, 12:31 AM
Post #110 of 118 (7538 views)
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still if you have a grigri you should always take it with you when
doing trad or sport, much easier to rappel and clean gear.


joegoesup


Aug 19, 2003, 11:47 AM
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I stick with an atc for trad. I like my gri gri for sport, but it puts too much force on my trad gear.


sittingduck


Aug 30, 2003, 11:12 PM
Post #112 of 118 (7538 views)
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Probebly mentioned before on rc.com but I dont have the time to read through all the posts on the grigri subject, so here goes:
On aid-climbs I belay the leader with an ATC, on the breakhand side I clip in the grigri leaving enough slack to operate the ATC. In case my partner thakes a fall while I'm unconsentrated the grigri will arrest the rope when the slack is gone. Great safety benefit imo.


braon


Sep 6, 2003, 2:08 AM
Post #113 of 118 (7538 views)
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So a gri-gri locks the rope up a couple of inches sooner than other devices. Does anyone honestly believe that this is going to significantly increase the forces on the belay system during a fall??? Sha right ... and like ... monkeys might fly out of my butt. This extra slippage might actually be useful if you were to take a 6 inch fall directly onto the anchors (reducing a factor 2 fall to factor 1). Seriously, I've logged a lot of BIG air time (I can't count the number of 50+ foot falls I've taken on two hands - Dan Osman's my hero) and the only time I've ever pulled a piece my belayer was using an ATC. There's absolutely no reason to be nervous about using a gri-gri to belay trad.


alpnclmbr1


Sep 6, 2003, 2:20 AM
Post #114 of 118 (7538 views)
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So a gri-gri locks the rope up a couple of inches sooner than other devices. Does anyone honestly believe that this is going to significantly increase the forces on the belay system during a fall??? Sha right ... and like ... monkeys might fly out of my butt. This extra slippage might actually be useful if you were to take a 6 inch fall directly onto the anchors (reducing a factor 2 fall to factor 1). Seriously, I've logged a lot of BIG air time (I can't count the number of 50+ foot falls I've taken on two hands - Dan Osman's my hero) and the only time I've ever pulled a piece my belayer was using an ATC. There's absolutely no reason to be nervous about using a gri-gri to belay trad.

Of course there wouldn't be any point in actually reading a thread your responding to. duh
It doubles the force on your last piece of gear in a test shown on page 5 of this thread.


braon


Sep 6, 2003, 2:38 AM
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missed that post trying to wade through all the senseless drivel. Thanks for the heads up


jt512


Sep 6, 2003, 2:43 AM
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missed that post trying to wade through all the senseless drivel.

I don't think that you're in a position to complain about the senseless drivel in the thread, given the fact that your first post just added to it.

-Jay


tenn_dawg


Sep 6, 2003, 3:25 AM
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So a gri-gri locks the rope up a couple of inches sooner than other devices. Does anyone honestly believe that this is going to significantly increase the forces on the belay system during a fall??? Sha right ... and like ... monkeys might fly out of my butt. This extra slippage might actually be useful if you were to take a 6 inch fall directly onto the anchors (reducing a factor 2 fall to factor 1). Seriously, I've logged a lot of BIG air time (I can't count the number of 50+ foot falls I've taken on two hands - Dan Osman's my hero) and the only time I've ever pulled a piece my belayer was using an ATC. There's absolutely no reason to be nervous about using a gri-gri to belay trad.

Sigh...Dear lord, deliver me from the ignorant!!!

Just kidding buddy, i'm sure you're not ignorant. You're not are you?;)

Travis


herm


Sep 8, 2003, 1:53 PM
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Use a gri-gri or what ever you like, but before you become a fast and light mountain climber guy, you will re-learn the intricacies of the old-fashioned sitting hip belay......................seriously.

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