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epic_ed
Aug 20, 2003, 3:55 AM
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Well, here we go again. I'm teaming up with Timpanogos (Chad) to do Prodigal Sun over Labor Day weekend. We have similar experience levels, but neither of us is going to fly up this thing. A one day ascent is out of reach for us. So that leaves us with a couple of strategy options for a two day attempt.
Option #1:
- Plan to spend a night on the wall and haul to the top.
- Fix to the top of P3 the first day, set up the ledge, and possibly fix P4.
Option #2:
- Fix to the top of P3 on day one, rap to the ground and sleep at the base (we'll hang the ledge at the base if necessary).
- Jug 240 ft the next morning and blast for the top. No hauling.
Advantages of Option #1:
- No time/energy lost jugging lines on day two.
- Allows us to have bivy gear on the route in case we come up short of the summit on day two. Or to sleep on top.
Disadvantages of option #1:
- Hauling will have us climbing slower.
- Hauling the last two pitches will suck.
Advantages of Option #2:
- Faster, lighter.
Disadvantages of Option #2:
- Jugging 240 ft to start a very long second day.
- No margin of error for completing the route. Either finish the last 6 pitches on Sunday, or spend a long night toiling to the top. Or worse -- bailing.
Have at it, folks. I'd like to hear all the input you've got.
Ed
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addiroids
Aug 20, 2003, 5:12 AM
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I would say fix and fire. Fix to 3 then rap off anchoring the rope to each station. Then lead in one block to the ledge past the bolt ladder (just before the curving C2 pitches) and another block to the top. That ledge is nice and spread out to allow for the lead changeover. Whatever you do, do not swing leads. Lead in blocks. It is much faster. Especially if you are not hauling. Yeah the jug up sucks, but you just have to deal with it.
Or you could just approach in the afternoon, get to bed early (you will not be hasseled for sleeping on the ground) and get up early (4am), get someone on lead ASAP (other packs up the crap) and get it done.
Or you could just be Ammon and do it in 2 hours.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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passthepitonspete
Aug 20, 2003, 6:12 AM
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Uh, what about the one-and-a-half pitches per day option? You could bring a generator [and plenty of gas] to fire up your laptop, modem and satellite phone. One of you could send us pitch by pitch reports while the other solo fixed. You could fight over the "remote for the TV", and who makes the micro-wave popcorn.
Forget the "solar-powered shower" when you've got your GE water heater. And as for those propane fridges that the El Cap climbers use to keep their beer cool and ice cream frozen - pshaw! How yesterday. Your fridge will have a light inside when you open the door.
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climbingcowboy
Aug 20, 2003, 6:39 AM
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Well you know my experriance level but having climbed with ya heres a couple things I though about for ya.
Option 1- Advantge:
Alot more practise getting things dialed for when you head back to Yos. to try Zodiac, (and the Prow with me again)
If you dont climb as fast as you thought you can take alittle longer and still complete a wall.
Option 1- Disadvantge:
Hauling SUCKS
Option 2- Advantge:
COMMETMENT its good to just commet and will push you to climb faster.
The jugging will be good for ya.
Optioin 2- Disadvantge:
You dont aid very fast, and will probably end up bailing. :wink:
Well dont kill me I'm just being honest. So for you I would say #1
Good luck bro. make sure theres a TR either way
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epic_ed
Aug 20, 2003, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: Optioin 2- Disadvantge: You dont aid very fast, and will probably end up bailing. :wink: Well dont kill me I'm just being honest.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
No kidding! That's what I've been tryin to tell ya! Facts are facts, man. Fast I am not. However, in this case I think slow and no hauling will just mean a lot of suffering to get to the top. Think about it -- if we're 7 pitches up and out of food, water, and daylight, is it really any easier (or safer for that matter) to bail and rap 7 pitches? Or is it best to suck it up and finish off the last two pitches?
I guess that's how I'm viewing the worst case scenario on the "no haul" option. Pete, you've climbed with Chad. I know he's still pretty new at the game, but do you think a two day ascent of Prodigal is attainable?
And no, I'm not striving for the slowest, most comfortable ascent of Prodigal. ;-)
Ed
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wigglestick
Aug 20, 2003, 2:47 PM
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Defineately Option #2. Don't haul. Considering you can fix almost half the route it is silly to work that hard. Fix to the top of 3 or even the extra set of anchors in the middle of pitch 4. Then blast the next day. Bring headlamps just in case and bailing is not an option.
Prodigal is totally doable in a day by a newbie party. I did it in 18 hours as my first successful wall and I had a grand total of about 8 aid pitches of experience and my partner had even less. There is so much fixed gear on that route you can really fly. Now that I know better I am sure that I could go considerably faster like 10 hours or less. You don't want to be one of the gumbies bivying at the top of pitch 2 and trying to haul up that gulley on the last pitch. Like Addiroids said lead in blocks and learn to short fix and you can cruise. Look for any opportunity where both people can be moving whenever possible.
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passthepitonspete
Aug 20, 2003, 3:41 PM
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The choice is easy - Option 2.
I base my decision primarily on one factor which you have not mentioned, and that is the length of time required for "vertical camping".
Bivying in your ledge is fun, for sure. But man, it takes a long time, especially if you're new at it, which you guys are. The potential for clusterf*ckage is ever-present, and it just takes so damn much time to get ready and pack your pig in the morning. After 23 Grade VI's, I can tell you with certainty you should do Option 2.
A wall climber might might think that a 240' jug would be "long", but a caver would take it in stride, especially with two rebelays. Why is this?
Because cavers know how to jug, dude. I mean, they really know how! With nothing better to do with their lives than crawl around in the mud and the darkness, a caver's idea of a good time is to hang his fixed rope under a bridge somewhere, and practice jugging. And believe me, they get their jugging systems fine tuned. Most any basic middle-aged lard-assed redneck caver Alabama [or] with NSS stickers on his bumper can jug faster than many Yosemite wall rats - even slim, trim, svelte and sexy hardmen like Ed and Chad.
This is because cavers use the Petzl Frog Ascending System, which was invented by the Ooh-la-la French cavers in the late 70's while the Merricans were still fighting and struggling with their Gibbs ropewalkers and their Texas systems. One of my Brit caving mentors Steve Worthington introduced us to the Frog system in 1981 when we explored Sotano de Trinidad in Mexico to a depth of -829m, at that time the 4th deepest cave in the western hemisphere. I think this was the first time the Frog system was used here in North America. You sure as hell wouldn't want to "Yosemite jug" or Texas up from that depth! And your Gibbs Ropewalkers simply wouldn't work on all the rebelays we used.
Incidentally, we were the Traddest of the Trad. We explored that cave half a mile deep without placing a single bolt. Not one! We used rebelays and deviations to keep the skinny 9mm static ropes [also new in North America] away from the rock, and all sorts of threads, pitons and wired stoppers, though we called them "pegs" and "chocks". Another team later explored it, and needed a bunch of bolts where we were able to do without.
By following the instructions in the post above, and by forking out another $15 or less to get a Petzl C26 Torse chest harness, any wall rat can convert his hugely ineffecient Yosemite jugging system to a Frog system.
Here's another look at the Torse. As I have written in the links above, you could use an elastic cord around your neck, too. But the Torse is cheap, lightweight, easy to use, and incredibly efficient. You'll read my testimonials in the posts beneath. I sure as heck wish we had Torse harnesses back in 1981! Any Petzl supplier can get you a Torse, though it will most likely be a special order.
Note: The Yosemite system IS marginally better than the Frog system on low-angle rock. If you are jugging the fixed ropes up to the Heart on the Southwest Face of El Cap, your Yosemite system will probably suffice, though the Frog works well, too, especially when you back off a bit on the tension in the Torse.
Epic Ed, you have already learned the folly of not practising when you found out at the base of the wall that you did not know how to operate your hauling system! You can click here to read Epic Ed's Bail from the Prow, which is an excellent trip report that predates the phuck philters. This trip report, along with the "post mortem" analyses which follow should be required reading for all BWT's wanting to reach the summit. Ed and Chad, you guys should definitely reread it, and make copious notes.
My suggestion is to make like the cavers and practise jugging. Make damn sure that you can jug 240' without flailing. If you use the Frog system, this will be a cakewalk. You can make a Frog system from your existing components. I do not know how steep the first three pitches are on your route, but if they are vertical or overhanging, learning how to operate your Frog system could tip the balance in your favour.
No bridge to practise under? Set up a pulley under a tree branch. Have your partner wear his harness, and run the rope through his belay device up to the pulley and down to you. Measure how much time it takes you to "jug" your 200' rope.
This method of practice is both easier and harder than the real thing. It's easier because you are not lifting your full weight - there is some advantage in pulling down the rope. This is the manner in which the NSS holds its speed jugging competitions. I have always wondered how this compares to jugging a fixed rope. I suspect it's a bit easier.
It's a bit harder because you don't have the weight of the free-hanging rope beneath you to pull the rope "automatically" through your lower ascender. This is OK - you will learn how to squeeze the rope between your feet using the Petzl system, which is how you have to start the beginning of each pitch. You should practise jugging with ten or twenty pounds of gear on you, too. This way when you hit the wall, it will feel much easier.
Under the tree, the Yosemite system might seem easier - for the first thirty feet or so. See how you feel after 239 feet.
Now, for those of you who might think me a bit anal to suggest you practise jugging, let me point out a few things. If you were going free climbing, would you not practise the fundamentals in a climbing gym? Jugging is fundamental to aid climbing. Being competent is critical to your success. I've spent a lot of time at the base of El Cap while fixing ropes for ascents [Option] and have had the opportunity to observe many many climbers. In my opinion, the #1 way that most wall climbers can become better is to learn how to jug.
Almost sounds counter-intuitive, eh? I mean, don't you just slap your jugs on the rope, and start climbing? Isn't it easy?
Jugging should be fast, and it should be second-nature. Get yourself to a reasonable level of competence beforehand. Waiting until you get on the wall to realize you don't know how to jug efficiently is a recipe to bailing.
Good luck, chaps!
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passthepitonspete
Aug 20, 2003, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: "I guess that's how I'm viewing the worst case scenario on the "no haul" option. Pete, you've climbed with Chad. I know he's still pretty new at the game, but do you think a two day ascent of Prodigal is attainable?
It is a fact that you will be slow. This is why I suggested the other option above. Taking extra food, extra water, and a ledge, and then taking longer and hauling bigger loads allows you to win by attrition. I have defeated many big walls in precisely this manner.
However, this being said, I still think Option 2 is viable for you guys, and that you have a chance if you keep your act together, and just keep frickin' climbing, and don't frickin' bail. [It is amazing what you can achieve if you simply do not bail.]
Your first Dr. Piton Homework Assignment is to click here and tell me if you have what it takes. Your second is to tell me if you have sufficient quantities of practice, balls and heart. [These]RANTS are fundamental reading for Dr. Piton aficionados.]
You both have the heart, and I already told you that you should practice. And I think you both have the balls. The fact that you are willing to go out on a limb, and tell us of your plans, suggests that you do have the balls. Because if you fail, your Dr. Piton assignment will be to write a post entitled, "How to Join the Bailed Off Prodigal Son Club"!
But besides the three essentials outlined above, you must make sure you have enough of four things - food, water, clothing and light. These are your rocket fuel - they will propel you to the summit.
I'm fortunate - I can go a long time without much food and water, and I frickin' hate power bars, anyway. But I've seen other people bonk. Keep yourself fed and hydrated.
And then just keep climbing. Make sure you're warm enough. "Any fool can be uncomfortable," and this fool knows. Man, I'll never forget the last belay on Jolly Roger. We were gunning for the summit, and my leader pulled an all-nighter while I belayed beneath. I had no sweater in the ledge, and tried to stay warm by wrapping the ropes around me! If I knew then what I know now, I would have put him onto solo belay, and rapped down a pitch to where the pigs were docked, and grab some warm clothes.
As a caver, not only do I know how to jug, but I also know the importance of seeing. The cavers' credo is three sources of light per person, which might be a bit of overkill on the wall. Big walls are much friendlier to light sources than the tight, wet and muddy confines of a cave. I would bring one headlamp each, and one spare headlamp between the two of you. Bring plenty of spare batteries. I would not go on lead at night without a mini-mag on a cord. I wear it round my neck, and I have wrapped duct tape around the end so I can stick it in my mouth. You never know when your bulb will burn out [you probably use LEDs now] or my batteries will go flat.
Think about it:
If you're up there with enough food, water, clothing and light, and you have what it takes, you'll just "keep on keepin' on" til you make the summit. It's an easier Grade V - the climbing will be well within your reach.
And when you think about bailing, which you may, please think about these kind and loving words of encouragement from your Wall Doctor:
"Shut up and climb."
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ep
Aug 20, 2003, 4:24 PM
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Ed, Pete's probably right that you can succeed with option #2, but based on your Prow TR, I'd wager that your odds of success with option #1 are higher. You never know what might go wrong this time. You could arrive at the base and find a party in front of you that looks just like you did earlier this year. I'd say build up a record of successful climbs before you start trying to push it. Just my opinion.
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flamer
Aug 20, 2003, 7:08 PM
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Ok, no matter which option you choose there is one thing that will allow you to move alot faster. DON'T TAKE TO MUCH GEAR!
As Wiggle already stated, there is a TON of fixed gear on Prodigal, and most of it is quite good. All of the anchors are bomber. Prodigal can be done more like a big free route than an Aid line. You do not need to take 3-4 sets of everything!! Find a post by Wigglestick concerning racking gear for speed, there is alot of info in it specific too Prodigal.
Goodluck! Have fun!
josh
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dsafanda
Aug 20, 2003, 10:22 PM
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Don't you think it's a matter of what's most important to you Ed? Style or getting to the top?
If getting to the top is the number one priority(why shouldn't it be?) I vote for #1. Drag all that crap as high as you can on the first day and before you know it, it will be just as much work to go down as it would be to finish the climb. ;)
Then again...what do I know. Anyway, that's my strategy for a moderate wall next week. I'll let you know how it goes.
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crotch
Aug 20, 2003, 11:05 PM
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Ed,
I'd vote for spending the night on the wall. It's a great place to hang out. The first two pitches should go pretty fast and the approach won't take all that long. Just make sure to be the FIRST on the wall. That means getting up really REALLY early.
The time you spend hauling and setting up the ledge will be equal to the time you spend rapping down at night, then jugging up in the morning. And it's good practice for the bigger stuff that you won't be able to do from the ground in a day.
I think you can link to the top of 2 with a 60m, so there's one less haul. Hauling the last pitch will suck as it goes sideways. The rest of the route isn't too bad to haul.
Bring some talons and ignore the stuff about needing big tricams. Up to a #4 camalot should do ya.
One thing I learned on this route is that placements in navajo sandstone can get buried when it rains as mud flows down the cracks. If it's rained recently (and it might have as Vegas got 3" in 1 hour yesterday) you may need to clear some mud out of the cracks with your nut tool. Obviously I'm not advocating enhancement, just mud removal.
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epic_ed
Aug 21, 2003, 1:52 AM
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Excellent feedback, guys. Some things have been mentioned that I hadn't thought about. Suppose that's why I asked.
Chad's input is missing at this point since he's out of town. His goals will certainly play into the decision. I'm really torn at this point. I'd kind of like to use the trip as a warm up for my return to the Valley next month. Hauling and setting up aledge would be great practice and would virtually assure us of success since we can take as much as we need and go as slow as necessary.
But I'm not sure that's the best strategy for this particular climb. First of all, the crowds will dictate our pace as much as anything. I don't think it would be fair to others who may end up behind us if we were in "no hurry" mode. I have no problem with other parties passing, but it still ends up a CF. I guess I'm leaning toward the fix and blast strategy. I'm not concerned about running out of food or daylight, but I sure as hell don't want to run out of water. Temps are still likely to be in the lower 90's. So that means someone would have to haul a small bag (I have an Atom Smasher) to carry the extra H2O.
Some additional considerations; I have soloed the first two pitches and so has Chad. We know what the approach is like and either of us should be able to blaze through the first three pitches in good time. If that's the case, then we might be able to fix P4 and rap back to the ground. Were looking at 370 ft of jugging the second day if we do that. Point well taken about practicing jugging, Pete. I'm dialed, and reasonably fit. Prodigal is vertical, but not past vertical so it shouldn't be too bad. Just one hell of an energy burn to start the day.
Thanks for the input, guys. Anything else I haven't thought of?
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 21, 2003, 2:08 AM
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[Ribbit]
370' of vertical jugging with the Yosemite system will fry your arms to bits.
[Ribbit]
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epic_ed
Aug 21, 2003, 2:10 AM
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One week to practice. Don't have a croll. Reading your entire post will fry my brain.
:lol:
(I'm not ungrateful for the effort, though)
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epic_ed
Aug 21, 2003, 2:52 AM
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In reply to: Your first Dr. Piton Homework Assignment is to click here and tell me if you have what it takes.
Yep. Definitely. I have had some success fer cryin out loud.
I'm a little short on the balls thing, but I am pretty darn stubborn. I'm certainly not worried about the difficulty of the route. It's well below the stuff I was doing in Yosemite and in Sedona. Plus, I have soloed the first two pitches of Prodigal, so I'm familiar with the approach, the start, and the top-stepping necessary to reach between the bolts/drilled angles on the route. I don't think bailing is going to be a problem on this trip unless it's weather induced. The key for me is -- how would I like my dose of suffering on Sunday. Less pitches, but more hauling and groveling up the last pitch? Or in one, long, grueling day in which we wil probably run out of daylight and water?
In reply to: And then just keep climbing. Make sure you're warm enough.
Don't think this will be a problem this time of year. Temps are forecast for the low 90's next weekend.
In reply to: And when you think about bailing, which you may, please think about these kind and loving words of encouragement from your Wall Doctor: "Shut up and climb."
Much thanks for the encouragement and words of wisdom. I'll be very surprised if bailing is even a remote consideration on this trip.
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 21, 2003, 2:52 AM
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Don't need a Croll. Any ascender will work, mounted as low as you can get it, and held up with a 1/4" elastic shock cord round your neck. Wear a shirt with a collar. You can pad the shock cord with an old T-shirt wrapped around it, held around the shock cord on each end by secure and tight wraps of duct tape.
All you need is a tree branch, and someone to let the rope go through their rap device.
Three .... hundred .... and ..... seventy ...... feet .....
Fry now, or fry later.
And I will say, "I told you so." [Ribbit]
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climbhigher
Aug 21, 2003, 3:10 AM
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Prodigal son is not that steep, use the basic Yosemite Method. And I would fix all the way to the first bolt ladder and Blast to the top the next day. Otherwise, I would do it in 4 days and bring everything.
All you would have to do is climb 2 pitches a day to make it to the top. It seems to me when you try to send kind of one way but also kind of the other way is when you suffer the most. The hauling on Prodigal is not bad except 100 + feet at the very top hauling up the chimney slab. Try not to send any rocks down up there. One almost took me out standing at the base of the route 3 feet to the left and I would have perished. Have Fun. It's a great route. Chris.
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epic_ed
Aug 21, 2003, 3:16 AM
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In reply to: It seems to me when you try to send kind of one way but also kind of the other way is when you suffer the most.
You know, this really does bring up a good point. How much more work would it be to just try the whole route in one push? Couldn't be much more effort or time than re-ascending to the top of P4 the second day and then logging another five pitches of climbing. Something to think about, I guess. One very long day of climbing. Hmmmm...
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passthepitonspete
Aug 21, 2003, 4:09 AM
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It's all big wall theory til you actually go do it.....
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flamer
Aug 21, 2003, 5:03 AM
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In reply to: [ You know, this really does bring up a good point. How much more work would it be to just try the whole route in one push? Couldn't be much more effort or time than re-ascending to the top of P4 the second day and then logging another five pitches of climbing. Something to think about, I guess. One very long day of climbing. Hmmmm...
You can do this route!!
josh
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epic_ed
Aug 21, 2003, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: It's all big wall theory til you actually go do it.....
In reply to: Ed, the only advice I would give you here is to know your own limits. We can all sit a spew about have fast we did X route, and in what style(I'm guilty of this!) and tell you how we think it should be done.
Yeah, nothing like a bunch of pre-climb mental masturbation. I'll report back with our results. Thanks again for the input.
Ed
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chitlinsconcarne
Aug 21, 2003, 6:30 AM
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Prodigals a short route and a relatively easy one..have you considered just going for the push and planning on climbing through as much of the night as you can? Theres nothing on that route thats not leadable in the dark. Whats the moon that night? Take a couple of plywood belay seats and a small bag and at worst you spend a few hours sitting in a cool place waiting for the sun.
Whatever you do-its a fun route, enjoy!
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passthepitonspete
Aug 21, 2003, 1:43 PM
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In reply to: "Yeah, nothing like a bunch of pre-climb mental masturbation. I'll report back with our results. Thanks again for the input."
It's part of the game, mate.
I'm going caving this weekend in Kentucky. As long as there isn't any rain forecast, we're returning to continue surveying our passage we discovered last time. It's two feet high and full of six to twelve inches of water. This time we're wearing wetsuits, as it gets quite miserable lying in the mud and water to make the survey shots.
We normally exchange dozens of emails talking about strategies and passages and where we think it'll go and stuff to bring and not bring - it's just part of the fun.
Bringing the pre-trip banter to the internet forum, where other climbers can join in, is just the next evolution.
[Note: There will be post-trip banter, too. This is also part of the game]
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brianinslc
Aug 21, 2003, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: Well, here we go again. I'm teaming up with Timpanogos (Chad) to do Prodigal Sun over Labor Day weekend. We have similar experience levels, but neither of us is going to fly up this thing. A one day ascent is out of reach for us. So that leaves us with a couple of strategy options for a two day attempt. Option #2: - Fix to the top of P3 on day one, rap to the ground and sleep at the base (we'll hang the ledge at the base if necessary). - Jug 240 ft the next morning and blast for the top. No hauling.
We easily fixed and fired. Boggles my mind why folks would sleep only 1 or 2 pitches off the deck...
You can fix the first 4 pitches with 2 ropes. And, the climbing is very easy and straightforward (fast) for those first four pitches (easy to lead the first two as one pitch). Backclean the roof on the first pitch for your partner, if he's not used to cleaning a traverse.
Don't underestimate how badly it sucks to haul thru the last pitch or two at the top. Go light and use a small bag/pack your partner can wear on the last pitch.
You'd want an early start...but...the shuttle bus doesn't really support that...so, a bivy at the base makes some sense. Easy to pick up your bivy gear after you top out too.
Brian in SLC
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addiroids
Aug 21, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Yeah, I would second the point about the "mandatory tricams". We did it and didn't need them. I do remember that HB offsets were useful. Maybe that's just cause we had them and placed them. But that's "standard rack" for wall climbing I guess. I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out and I got on a talon hook on the side wall right away. So, again to reiterate the "standard rack" that is probably already mentioned in the route description, a hook or two wouldn't hurt.
Also, I don't remember the bolt ladder on P6? being reachy. Just for some piece of mind for you. Good luck bro and climb hard.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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dsafanda
Aug 21, 2003, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out
Isn't this the kind of destructive placement that is the reason cam hooks are somewhat frowned upon for Zion trade routes? Keep blowing out cam hooks and you wont have a route. I'm not judging...just trying to guage consensus.
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slabbyd
Aug 21, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Clearly the choice between strategies here is difficult. The route is of a length were either one might work best for you, but it comes down to a personnal choice.
Here's an idea, not sure how long you have in Zion, but consider getting in a day or two of PRACTICE on the Touchstone Wall. Without the pressure of having to get to the top you can focus on dialing in your systems, getting comfortable with you partner and the rock, figuring out what works and what doesn't. After three or four pitches of that you'll be ready to move when you get on Prodigal.
On Prodigal I'd vote for strategy #2 but after a day or two on Touchstone you'll have a much better idea of whats going to work for you and Chad. Best wishes. Zion is an amazing place!
As for camhooks in Zion. It's bull s*&t based on how often you hear of them blowing out the rock. Creative camming or a nut-and-a-prayer has gotten me through more than one blown out scar there. Leave the camhooks in the car!
Also, someone really needs to knock all that loose shit off the top of Prodigal someday. On that alone I would never climb that route behind another party.
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brianinslc
Aug 22, 2003, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out Isn't this the kind of destructive placement that is the reason cam hooks are somewhat frowned upon for Zion trade routes? Keep blowing out cam hooks and you wont have a route. I'm not judging...just trying to guage consensus.
Yes, please please please do NOT use cam hooks in Zion. Ruins the placements. Blows up the rock into a useless pod.
Rock in Zion is too soft for cam hooks. Its better to use a cheater stick or (re)sculpt the placement. Prodigal Son especially is suffering from the use of cam hooks (but so is Spaceshot, Moonlight, etc etc). Ugly.
Brian in SLC
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 1:21 AM
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Herro, from Kyoto Japan.
Some good advice here, thanks everyone. Ed, I say fix and shoot.
We will have to get together and talk. I need to get home and route through my gear, but yea, bring the atom smasher for fuel/water - grab a belay seat and a sweater, batteries and haul light.
I just checked the weather, major rain this coming week up to Wed and Thursday. Good part, highs in the mid 80's, bad part lows in the 50's. (Cold night in belay seat?).
If we can fix to 3 or 4 first day - let's do it. bivy at base, leave sleeping gear there, get going early and do it. Plan a long first day (many fix in the afternoon and shoot the next day). This will allow us to work our system out with each other to be smooth for the second day.
I'm fine with leading in blocks so we should think through our systems/gear based on this. I have a zip line with dedicated biners/bag we can use.
I am a PTPP gumby and hence I'm geared for his systems for soloing (short fixing in this case), zipping, hauling etc. as well as these are the only systems that I have personally climbed with.
When I get home (Monday night). I will lay out my gear drop you a line with a more detailed list of what gear I think we should take with a somewhat detailed walk through of a block lead, as I know how to do it.
Feel free to do this before I get home and sent it to me. This way, maybe we can at least mentally dial our system before we get there, and have a jump on the minimal gear least for hauling the atom smasher and doing the route with a potentially very long day/night/top bivy in mind (lows in the 50's).
Also keep in mind that I can get there Thursday and get warmed up, get gear to the base, getting a place in line (maybe fix a pitch or two) etc.
Ed - you will need to be patient with me, been working too much of late - out of shape (single day push is out) - but looking forward to it.
Chad
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climbhigher
Aug 24, 2003, 6:05 AM
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Hell Yeah!!! Now you are talking. Fuck it and do it in a PUSH!!!! Hope you guys have fun. Don't come back until you have sent!!!
LIVE DANGEROUSLY,
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the_dude
Aug 24, 2003, 6:27 AM
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Climb that route! No matter how long it takes have fun and keep climbing. Remember, down is the wrong direction!
Cheers
The Dude
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 11:37 AM
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Ok, I did a search on Prodigal Sun and did some reading and came up with the following. * shows gear Ed may want to add:
2 sets of hybrid Aliens
1 normal set of Aliens
1 set of TCU's
1 set of zeros
* all your red and yellow aliens
This gives us 5 of everything to about .94"
3 sets of cams from the .94" to 2"
2 sets of cams from 2.1" to 6.4"
3 screamers
* maybe add a few more
12 Quick draws
* suppliment for worse case number of bolts in a given ladder
10 short runners - I used these on 1st pitch last time when out of QDs
* leave these out if you bring more draws.
15 regular length runners
30 spare binners - maybe more?
2 sets of Brass HB's
1 set of alumninum HB's
1 set regular nuts
2 BD talons
Tricams (I have pink and the next size bigger (red I think)
* brown TCU
I have a 10.5mm 60 meter lead rope, a 10mm 60 meter lead rope, a 5mm 70 meter zip line and a 65 meter 11.5 static haul line. Ed do you have a 9mm lead that we could haul the atomsmasher and use for rap/jug as needed, or should we use a second lead line (my static is heavy, but is nice to jug/haul? Would we be light enough to haul the atomsmasher with the 5mm zip line (better not have to zip past 35 meters)).
1 pro-traxion for atomsmasher haul
3 gallons water (second day)
lunch dinner breakfast for 2 (second day)
pad sweater/light coat and bivy sacks?
2 light weight belay seats (forced vertical bivy)
1 mini traxion for leader zip
I would like to take enough to do a forced bivy, yet finish the climb, but still go as light as possible.
For you guys that have climbed this, does this sound right? I've heard talk of people taking big Bros I don't have any - I have 2 sets of cams up to the big boys in Friend and BD. Most of the trip reports talk about the need for 5 or 6 of the smaller cams, 3 or so hand sized, but never talk much about the big stuff. Will we need them, and if so where?
Any thoughts on this list from the forum would be appreciated.
Note for Ed,
All my Cams have color coded crabs - based on size, not set - I do rack my nuts by set.
Thanks in advance
Chad
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brutusofwyde
Aug 24, 2003, 2:49 PM
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I've seen nothing in the responses so far that will give you the best chance for success.
Prodigal is a busy route.
You are planning on doing it over a nation-wide holiday, when the Virgin River is low, and when it is one of the few easier trad routes that are mostly in the shade.
You can be totally psyched, equipmented, and rarin' to go, but if some gumby like me is having an epic on the first half of the route, going slow and eventually retreating, and you are not willing to pass them or wait them out, you will fail.
Plan extra days which may be spent at the base, due to other parties.
If waiting behind a slow party, make your presence known over at the base of the route daily. This may include stashing gear, fixing ropes, whatever it takes. Be prepared for this eventuality. It may be your best strategy, regardless of hou you actually work your logistics on the wall.
Awaiting the TR.
Brutus
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 3:14 PM
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Thanks Brutus - good observation here.
I have all the time in the world (work owes me a ton of comp time) I can get there as early as Thursday Morning and stay as long as needed. I should hopefully get a good jump on everyone hitting there Thursday -
I'm considering hanging my ledge off the roof and maybe bivy right there until Ed shows up Saturday Morning (leaving it at base for 2nd day shoot). If I'm off the ground, it's a legal bivy right? Ed did not want me to fix too far as he wants to call it climbed (fair enough) - I could solo fix Thursday and Friday based on crowds and need.
If we take emergency bivy for group in front of us screw up, or our screw up (3 gallons water, belay seat, light coat and 3 meals of fuel) for anything over the 3.5 pitch mark is what I'm thinking - yea rough bivy, but 1.5 days water/food for second half.
What do you think - Base camping should not be so much of an issue here, it's after 3.5 pitch mark - what gives us the best chance of finishing if we end up the night on the upper half somewhere?
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climbhigher
Aug 24, 2003, 4:36 PM
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DUDE!!! It's not rocket science. Here's the Rack.
3 sets of aliens (If one set is hybrid all the better)
2 sets of camalots from red to blue
1 set of hb offset nuts
1 set of hb brass nuts
1 set of the very small hb brass nuts
30 biners
15 quickdraws
THAT's a basic El CAP grade SIX rack minus the pins and more then enough for Prodigal Son.
I don't think Prodigal is an easy C2 big wall. There's some very hard placements, But you don't need any special gear. Oh yeah bring 1 gallon per person per a day, if that's to much just drink heavly. Why pack in your pack when you can pack it in your colon. And I am not a BWT or BTW whatever. Been climbing extensively for over a decade and have done all the big wall trade routes in Zion and a few more. GOOD LUCK and don't come back until it's done. If you want any more beta, just give me a holler.
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 5:50 PM
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Ok, I'm game for this rack - except -
I'm checking my cam chart here, BD blue is the #3 and ranges from 2.0" to 3.4" (2.14" at 90%, 2.46" at 50%). BD has 3 cams above the blue. I'm not going to be freeing anything above 5.8 - are you sure we are not going to need any bigger cams than the blue? It seems I used a bigger cam than that on the first piece of P2 but it's been awhile?
I also remember my first attempt at a solo of Prodigal, I jumped on a small HB brassy (might have been a number 2) and it cut right through the rock and I took a static daisy fall. I kind of figured from that time on that a #3 was likely the limit on that sand stone. What are you calling a small set?
Chad
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flamer
Aug 24, 2003, 10:41 PM
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Climbhigher has defiantly got the rack styled out! Listen to what he is saying! If you take to much stuff on this route, especially in the style you want to do it in, it will greatly increase your chance's of bailing. The first part of pitch 2 goes free right around 5.8- wear your free shoes, if I remember correctly I actually aided through on nuts- it's just reachy. You may want a #4 camalot size up high- but only take 1 and don't take any other big stuff. As far as using small brassy's in Zion goes- it all depends on the placement! I've used the itty bitty ones without trouble, just make sure you use the right tool for the job. You guys should seriously think about not hauling, have the second carry a SMALL pack. If you want to do this fast DO NOT ZIP GEAR!! This is an amazing waste of time!! This is only really needed for hard nailing routes.
HAVE FUN!!
josh
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timpanogos
Aug 25, 2003, 1:14 AM
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Just going for the pack might be a good idea, but then again 12 pounds of water (1.5 gal), maybe a pad and bivy sack (it's forecast as a raining week with lows at 50) coat and fuel - we are going to be at 20 pounds a person in personal gear
So, Flammer, you are saying do not lead in blocks? If we lead in blocks, we will have to zip gear. Seems that leading in blocks would well pay for any time zipping - and if we could pull the atomsmasher over the top with the 5mm zip line, all the better. (40 pounds personal + say 15 pounds unused rack - thats a 55 pound haul to start and 31 pound haul over the top.
Leading in blocks also leaves the second plenty of time to ready the atomsmasher for haul and dropping a protraxion for a 55 pound haul is not going to take much. - even if we use a back up dynamic lead line for hauling (or a static) - only having one rope might make me a bit nervous anyway.
humm, not sure, what do others think, remember we are new and slow, and number one goal is to succeed.
Well, I have a bus, train, plane and 14 hour negitive time warp (I get home before I leave) to go, more later - and thanks everyone
Chad
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climbhigher
Aug 25, 2003, 2:27 AM
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Chad you are thinking to much. Why are you going to bring a bivi sack and pad if you guys are going to do it in 24 hours? Just bring a rain jacket. That's all you need. And if you guys are planning on doing it in a day and just happen to bail the first time, do you guys have enough time for another go at it push?
Flamer is right don't zip gear. If you use the rack i suggested, you can easly carry it all on your double gear sling no problem. And you say you guys are new and slow. It does'nt matter how slow you are when leading as long as somebody is always moving upwards and is leading. The Key is stay in Motion. Newtons First Law.
Think light!!!! I know, it's extremely hard to let go, commit and not bring somethings, but at the same time, it's really exciting to go do a wall and just have water on your back and a rain jacket tied around your waist. It's very liberating.
Otherwise bring a Portaledge and the kitchen sink and a whole different attitude and perspective on things, After the first two days up on the wall, it's easy living up there.
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epic_ed
Aug 25, 2003, 5:01 AM
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Hehehe. Good input all around. It's been a while since Chad had time to post, be he's notorious for "posting out loud." Just gets that rambling stream of consciousness going and somehow it all ends up on the computer screen. ;-) But he always has great questions.
My thinking about the rack -- we'll deal with the particulars via email, but I'm used to wearing the whole rack. No matter what we carry it will be a hell of a lot lighter than the crap I've been soloing with. Zip line for blocks? Maybe the second day. But keep in mind we'll need two ropes to fix to the top of P3 or P4. Might as well just use one of those for a tag line that first day. Then drop the second rope on day 2 and use the lighter zip line.
As Chad mentioned, our best chance for success is to fix on day 1 and then blast. I don't think either one opf us is in good enough shape for a one day push.
Brutus makes an excellent point about crowds. I had Prodigal to myself on Memorial Day weekend this year due to temps. I think the heat kept most people away. We might get lucky again, but unfortunately, I only have Sat, Sun to climb. I'm counting on Chad to jockey for position on Friday. I could climb Monday and do the usual "call in sick/I epiced over the weekend" routine at work.
Let's just go climb the damn thing. ;-)
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flamer
Aug 25, 2003, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: So, Flammer, you are saying do not lead in blocks? If we lead in blocks, we will have to zip gear. Seems that leading in blocks would well pay for any time zipping - and if we could pull the atomsmasher over the top with the 5mm zip line, all the better. (40 pounds personal + say 15 pounds unused rack - thats a 55 pound haul to start and 31 pound haul over the top. Chad
Ok, I think you are talking about short fixing, which is slightly different then leading in blocks. If you are going to short fix than, yes you might want to have a zip line. If you are going to use the traditional method of leading in blocks, then zipping gear would be a bad idea.
55 POUNDS??? Dude! Either commit to firing or do it with a ledge and a bag! If you need 55 pounds worth of stuff to "fix and fire" you are going to have some problem's!!
I believe it was Chouinard who said " If you take bivi gear, you will use it".
Light is right!!
Have fun!!
josh
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ep
Aug 25, 2003, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: humm, not sure, what do others think, remember we are new and slow, and number one goal is to succeed
No offense you guys, but I think that quote and the fact that you're asking the online world what you should do says a lot. I honestly wish you the best of luck. But if there was a betting window and I had decent odds on the "Ed and Chad Try to Fire" line, I'd be betting against you.
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wigglestick
Aug 25, 2003, 10:10 PM
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I agree. You are kind of putting the cart before the horse, so to speak by saying that your number one goal is to succeed. Your number one goal should be to move as efficiently as possible and success will just be a by product of this goal. And don't give me this crap about not being in good enough shape to do it in a single push. I am a wuss and does not take a ultra athlete to climb 9 pitches in a day. Especially when you are sitting around belaying for half the time. Each of you take a camelback with your own personal water/food/shell/etc. Take 2 ropes and climb the damn thing. Set a point of no return and stick to it. When I did it it was starting to get dark about 6:30. My partner and I decided that if we weren't at the top of pitch 5 by 5:00 we would bail. Otherwise we would just deal with whatever happened. And don't worry about hiking down in the dark. The trail down is as easy as they come, its mostly paved. In fact I suggest you do hike down in the dark so that you don't have to deal with all the tourons asking dumb question the whole way down.
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crotch
Aug 25, 2003, 10:17 PM
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As far as rack goes, I think doubles on stoppers, aliens and camalots should be fine. I'd bring the #4 camalot, and throw in a set of hybrid aliens and all of the HB offsets. 1 talon, 1 cliffhanger. Pink, red, blue, brown tricams.
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epic_ed
Aug 25, 2003, 10:39 PM
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Climbing never is and never has been about summits for me. I do this stuff because it's fun, because I love the personal challenge, and for dozens of other reason that have nothing to do with meeting other people's expectations. I've learned at least as much about myself and about climbing during some of my worst failures as I have after many of my triumphs. This wall will be for me like the others that have preceeded it; the reward is in the journey and in all of the aspects that make up the big wall experience. For me this includes the pre-climb mental preperation, the planning, the sorting of gear, the buying of meals, the travel to the destination, the agonizing hike in with the massive loads of gear, the thrill of tieing in, the terror of standing on a completely jingus piece of gear, and the relief of sinking the next bomber piece. The summit is nice, but it's such a damn small piece of the puzzle.
Will we succeed? If reaching the top of Prodigal is the defining parameter, maybe. Maybe not. But don't mistake this exchange of mental ramblings, questioning, and second guessing as the fumblings of a couple of incompetent boobs. We ask questions on-line inforums like this because we have come to know that there are many members of the website who have trudged the road before us, and we have come to know and respect the input they have to offer in situations like ours. We know the options and the variables. Part of belonging in this community of aid climbers on rockclimbing.com is throwing our plans, hopes, and aspirations out there for review by our peers. For me, it's all part of the experience.
So root for us, or bet against us. I really don't care. What matters to me is already well in the works and no matter what happens I guaran-freakin-tee were going to have a blast this weekend.
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 26, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Whether you succeed, or whether you fail, it takes balls to announce your intentions to the whole world. Looking forward to hearing how you make out.
Just go there, start climbing, and don't bail. You'll eventually reach the summit. It works for me.
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ep
Aug 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: Whether you succeed, or whether you fail, it takes balls to announce your intentions to the whole world.
I disagree.
In reply to: Looking forward to hearing how you make out.
I am too. Good luck Ed & Chad.
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 3:04 AM
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Yea, sorry everyone, I let it all ramble out - and over analyze - but please bear with me as I have been way caught up in work for 1.5 months now, and I need to quickly get my head/thinking back into the systems.
Along with everything else that could cause failure - I've learned that Cluster F---age rates right up there, I'm happy with the gear feedback I've gotten and I will get with Ed privately to finish this out. We got good beta here, thanks everyone. In fact I'm tending toward Climbhighers latest comment (raincoat and a prayer and commit), but I'm also not afraid of a 50 pound atom smasher haul as long as we do not cluster f.... Ed and I can also work this out in private. If you guys would bear with me for one more thing - I'm working on quick list for input on leading in blocks (sorry total gumby here, don't understanding what benefit (or how it works) leading in blocks without the lead taking off on solo - fixing short - and leaving the 2nd to clean and haul. Pete and I did this on the Prow and I thought it went very smoothly, and with basically hauling (heck zipping) such a light load - I'm not so concerned.
Now Ed, as a warning, it sounds like I might be a lot more Goal oriented than you (top oriented that is). Sure I'm after the experience also, and also have my risk limits - but make no mistake - I'm headed for the top on these climbs. I had success with Pete on the Prow and I want to start getting some routes ticked off as completed. climbed, done, summited. Hitting the summit is important to me personally. Sure I might easily eat these words with our trip report come next week - but like someone said earlier - if you pack for bivy you are going to bivy - modified in this case to - if you are wishywashy about Summit orientation - that old rubber band is likely to win on the down side.
I'm going to pop a list out here in a bit, everyone please comment - I would personally like to lead in blocks, fixing short with the leader taking off on solo after fixing. If we have the steps in our head before we get there, we should be able to move smoothly and with no cluster f... I just want to make sure we have a good system, that we can decide to go with, and get import for improvement from the aid crew.
Thanks
Chad
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 5:09 AM
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Assuming lead is on belay for his first pitch
1. Lead gets to the anchor station.
a. lead has an empty zip line bag with him.
b. lead has an empty lead line bag with him.
2. setup bidirectional equalized anchor with Power-Point (all good bolt stations so no problems here).
3. Lead daisies into the Power-Point with transient lockers.
4. Lead calls off belay and unties from the lead line.
a. 2nd drops belay
b. 2nd readies the zip.
5. Lead pulls up all excess lead line, stacking it in rope bucket as he goes
a. Pete, I think you pulled loops and tied backup knots for the whole of the loose end. Any none obvious pro's/con's of having the extra rope on you instead of feeding from the rope bucket?
6. Lead fixes the lead line short with an alpine butterfly on a designated transient locker on the Power-Point
7. Lead zips the haul line, empty lead bucket and Pro-traxion, stacking zip in bucket as pulls it up.
8. Lead sets/loads the Pro-traxion and empty lead bucket that came up with zip (now haul bucket)
a. ties off loose end with backup knot to Power-Point with transient locker.
b. 2nd fixes the atom-smasher short with alpine butterfly and lowers out as needed.
c. 2nd starts cleaning the pitch - unless there is a potential of atom-smasher snagging
d. in case of potential snag - Lead hauls - at least to safe distance. (atom smasher haul - leader should be able to just hand over hand this, slowing down for stacking more than anything).
9. Lead clips a screamer to the Power-Point.
a. leaving enough lead rope for screamer deployment, leader ties another alpine butterfly in the lead line and connects to other end of screamer to it.
b. note, this leaves the 2nd jugging on the solid fixed short butterfly on the Power-Point. The screamer is the dynamic belay link on the anchor, with the juggers butterfly as a backup.
If we can not get all of the steps to here done in about 5 minutes we are sightseeing!
10. Lead sets up grigri for solo and ties a backup loop/knot to his designated backup knot locker on his harness.
11. Leader unclips his daisies from the Power-Point and takes off.
Ok, 2nd's story from step 12.
12. 2nd finishes cleaning the pitch.
a. 2nd sorts gear as he cleans so he can quickly zip as needed when he hits anchor
13. 2nd daisies into the Power-Point and clears his ascender.
a. his grigri is now in the right position to belay in a bit.
13. 2nd hauls the atom-smasher.
a. mini-pig has empty (or partially empty) haul line bucket, lets take 3 lead/haul rope buckets and two zip line buckets total (I have/use the Fish Big and medium wall bags for this)
b. mini-pig has empty zip bucket at this point.
14. 2nd ties off the pig to designated transient locker on Power-Point
a. I would still suggest using load release here, not because of weight but
1). 2nd in step 8a above can more easily fix the haul line short on the pig.
2). there are traverses where lower out might be warranted, and more easily done.
3). If I get a new 9mm rope as noted below, haul ends will switch each haul on my new rope! -
4). 2nd will have plenty of time deal with this anyway.
15. 2nd zips an empty lead bag, empty zip bag and the cleaned rack
a. zipping could happen anytime after 13 as needed.
16. 2nd sets up his belay chair and disconnects the lead line from the anchor (jugging butterfly and solo anchor screamer) and puts the lead back on belay.
a. awaits leads arrival to anchor and go to step 1
Ok, one possible alternate - I'm kicking around the idea of getting a 9mm, 60 meter, jugging/rapp/zip line for a second rope.
Everything is basically the same, except
7. lead is going to have to have the Pro-traxion and rope bags on him above the zip point.
8d. Lead is going to have to haul at least 1/2, as he needs to take the free end of the haul line with him for next pitch zip.
15. This step will have to happen no later than 30 meters into the next pitch.
For those of you that do use the 9mm goody - do you make this a static line or a dynamic? For example, Is 9mm just plain crazy for an emergency lead line?
Ed' I think we can study this out in our minds, agree on a sequence beforehand and things should just flow from there - dang, exciting, sounds easier - Hell like ClimbHigher said, if we were flowing smooth on sat, don't stop.
It might also make sense to do 3 or more in a block depending on the climb (i.e. 1 to 3, don't link but 3 blocks). Find those standing belays to switch lead on.
Wow, after writting this, Pete sent me the following link - makes me feel better, I think I had it by thinking it through - however, note my modification of using the 9mm but leaving the 5mm zip line at home. Ed - Pete's description gives much more detail on gear setup etc. worth reading.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=34421
Ok everyone, let me have it..
Thanks
Out of shape - but starting to get excited here!
Chad
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epic_ed
Aug 26, 2003, 5:16 AM
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We'll do fine. The difficulty level of this route is below anything I've climbed this year (including the loose crap I prayed through this weekend), and the only thing keeping us from the summit will be weather or crowds. I'm willing to climb through some pretty nasty weather so chances are crowds will be the biggest challenge.
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 26, 2003, 5:54 AM
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1 a. Zip line bag is attached to bottom of zip line. You pull up the zip, then restack it. Unless you have two zip line bags. But it doesn't take long to restack.
1b. No need for lead rope bag here. Leader just pulls up all the slack and fixes the lead rope. Then he takes the excess rope, and clips it into his designated backup autolocker every twenty feet or so, and takes off on solo lead.
3. Leader tethers into Power Point with his lead carabiners on the end of his daisies.
4. Leader doesn't untie from lead line. He pulls it up as described above, and stays tied into the end. He takes off soloing with his Grigri, dropping the backup knots as he goes. Hopefully by the time he reaches the end of his lead rope [to which he is still tied!] the cleaner/seconder has arrived at the belay, and can put him on belay.
5. No, not in the bucket. On the backup autolocker on the leader's harness.
You could I suppose bring a second lead rope bag. Not really necessary, though. Cons are extra time to stack in bag, and expense of extra bag. Pros? Hmmm, can't think of any.
It is hard to have too many rope bags. It wouldn't hurt to have two lead rope bags, but you don't really need two.
10-11. Beware factor 2's when taking off on lead!
12a. is KEY, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
13a. Well I'll be buggered. Never thought of that.
13a. Well I'll be buggered - I've seen apartment buildings with no thirteenth floor, and damn if'n you don't have two!
6. There is no Rule 6!
7. No poofdahs.
14a. ALWAYS secure your pig with a Docking Tether tied in a Load Release Knot. It's crazy to clip it in!
14 3) As for haul line bags:
When you solo, you only need one bag per haul line.
When climbing with a partner, it is very handy to have two haul line bags per haul line. [Think] When leading in blocks as you describe, it is almost as though you are soloing, so you really only need one haul line bag [think]
All this being said, it is difficult to have too many rope bags!
At any rate, you are always switching ends on the haul line, because as you stack it, the bottom becomes the top.
15. Leader and seconder should be connected whenever possible by zip. This can allow the seconder to zip stuff to the leader while the seconder is still cleaning, and before he reaches the upper belay. An extra-long zip is handy when leading in blocks and short fixing.
As mentioned, it's handy to have a juggable zip line, but only if you are camping on the wall and fixing pitches. On Sea of Dreams we had an 8mm perlon zip, and I'm quite sure we used it for fixing from time to time.
You have the sequence fairly correct from what I can see. Honestly I'm a little lost with all the rope bags flying up and down, but as I said, it never hurts to have a few more!
Don't bust your brain trying to overanalyze this. You understand the basics as we did on The Prow, so you'll be fine. Just keep the ship moving. Always focus on moving the leader upward. Trust your second to get the job done. If the route is not overhanging, and there is risk of the pig getting stuck, best to prerig a Far End Hauler. [You won't need it if the route is steep, and it will be more trouble than it's worth] But if the route is slabby or has roofs, your second will have to haul by himself, and it could save you having to come down from lead to assist in the hauling.
Remember that when you are leading in blocks and short fixing, that you will have to take off on lead before your leader has completed cleaning. For this reason, you need a rack and a half.
The racks described above may be fine if you are not short fixing and leading in blocks, and will work in theory, but if you want to keep leading without backcleaning the livin' bejeepers out of everything, I'd bring a bit of extra gear. It's hard to have too many cams, slings, and free carabiners. Two sets of wired stoppers is usually ample - you rarely need more than that, and they just get in the way.
Get there early, Chad. Fix some pitches. Get yourself to the head of the queue. Jug up, and send it. Bring enough food, water, clothes and lighting. Just climb til you make it.
The summit counts.
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the_dude
Aug 26, 2003, 6:25 AM
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If you can read this whole thread start to finish, YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES to climb Prod. Son!!
Cheers,
The Dude
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epic_ed
Aug 26, 2003, 6:45 AM
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The system you're describing is great for grade V's and VI's where you're going to be living on the wall for a couple of days, but we're not. We're basically doing two days of grade III climbing. A zip line will just add unnecessary weight and clutter and we would be better served just climbing with the whole rack each pitch, then the LIGHT Atom Smasher will only contain extra water, some light clothes, and extra food. We'll be hauling less than 40 lbs. Easy for the leader to leg haul (or haul 50 ft and leave the rest for the follower). The hauling on this route is very straight forward. Nearly vertical or past vertical the entire route except for the last pitch. Once follower reaches the belay, any gear the leader needs can be sent up on the slack of the static line. I know, I know...you can only send gear up for the first 100 ft, but the leader should know by the 1/2 way point in the lead line what gear he's going to need for the rest of the pitch. Or better yet, send up the kitchen sink to make sure you don't run out of gear. Just trying to keep it simple.
I like the rack and a 1/2 idea.
Summits do matter. I hope you're not implying that my previous post leads you to believe I'm out to just take my gear for a walk. I just don't let anyone else dictate the terms of what is success and what is failure in my climbing experiences.
Ed
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 7:12 AM
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Pete,
Only reason I proposed the funky bag up and down stuff was really based on the haul line (yea I understand the solo, single haul bucket thought). My only thinking was based on the idea of dropping 100' of line below the mini-pig, verses just leaving the leftover in the bucket stuffed in the top of the pig for those that don't require a lowerout or ya simply let that piggy go Sqeeeellllling, and since you can stuff the large and medium Fish bags just about anyware on your body - taking two extra bags seemed simple enough.
On my WFLT attempt, I was watching a solo-er on the wall - I picked up his dropped rope bag on my way up to the base. I meet him later - he would have almost given a #10 nut for another bag - if ya know what I mean.
Stacking the short fix lead rope in a bucket -
1. you don't have to carry the weight of the loops on you (and add to snagging them on the pieces, formations below you).
2. however, you are going to have to untie.
3. if you go on belay, the 2nd will need to feed any unused ropes through his belay device and will have to stack the rope anyway as he pulls it down off of you. If the rope is already stacked when 2nd is ready to belay, he can simply load his device on the rope coming out of the bag.
4. The 2nd can put the leader on belay without effecting the leader at all (he does not have to stop and untie/drop loops and wait for it to be stacked and belay set before he can move on. Once the leader gets to where he would try a new backup - 2nd just lets him know, he's on belay and does not need the backups anymore.
It seems that only disadvantage of this would be
1. you climb around structures that would cause the long singular strand to get caught.
2. you do have to untie from the rope to stack it - like if you were soloing it.
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ep
Aug 26, 2003, 6:05 PM
Post #56 of 59
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In reply to: Pete and I did this on the Prow and I thought it went very smoothly
Chad, I saw you guys up there. I had soloed the Prow a few days before and my girlfriend was curious to see the climb. So we hiked over to where we could see the route and I pointed to these two guys just getting started to show her where it was. She asked me what was hanging off the lower belay and I soon realized that it was a flagged ledge. You don't see that all the time. Then I noticed the crab. Must be PTPP! What's he doing on the Prow?
The usual business at the end of pitches involves yelling Off Belay, Rope is Fixed, Ready to Haul --- that sort of stuff. But the upper guy at Anchorage Ledge (PTPP?) was yelling all manner of things down to his partner. My girlfriend wanted to know what they were talking about. But I sure didn't know. Maybe some complicated 16 step set of instructions on what to do next?? I guess I'll never know.
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flamer
Aug 26, 2003, 10:37 PM
Post #57 of 59
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In reply to: I'm willing to climb through some pretty nasty weather so chances are crowds will be the biggest challenge. Ed
ED!! I know you know better than this!! If it start's raining in Zion you SHOULD bail. I'm talking about soaking rain here folks, not a light 10 minute drizzle! Ed you're a sandstone guy, you know how weak the rock gets when it gets wet! Hell by most counts after it gets really wet you should give it 3 days! If people climb routes like prodigal before they dry then these routes will see serious damage. There are a million excuse's to keep climbing...i only have so much time off work etc. But the route will be there next time- provided we all stick to basic sandstone rules...like let it dry!!
HAVE FUN!!
josh
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 10:54 PM
Post #58 of 59
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Current weather
FRIDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH A SLIGHT CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS. HIGHS IN THE MID TO UPPER 90S. CHANCE OF RAIN 20 PERCENT.
SATURDAY...MOSTLY CLEAR... LOWS IN THE LOWER 70S... HIGHS IN THE MID 90S.
SUNDAY...MOSTLY CLEAR... LOWS IN THE LOWER 70S... HIGHS IN THE MID 90S
Don't think rain is going to be a problem.
Ep - there was an avalance (actually 2 of them) that we witnessed coming off of the top of Half Dome as we were coming to the bivy ledge. We were doing lots of hollering on that one - waaaay cool, I actually caught some pictures of it - all the way from top to bottom - looked like several waterfalls.
Chad
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epic_ed
Aug 26, 2003, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm willing to climb through some pretty nasty weather so chances are crowds will be the biggest challenge. Ed ED!! I know you know better than this!! If it start's raining in Zion you SHOULD bail. I'm talking about soaking rain here folks, not a light 10 minute drizzle! Ed you're a sandstone guy, you know how weak the rock gets when it gets wet! Hell by most counts after it gets really wet you should give it 3 days! If people climb routes like prodigal before they dry then these routes will see serious damage. There are a million excuse's to keep climbing...i only have so much time off work etc. But the route will be there next time- provided we all stick to basic sandstone rules...like let it dry!! HAVE FUN!! josh
Good point. The whole area has been getting a lot of rain recently. Might make it interesting. In monsoon season like it is now, though, small and intense systems move through rather rapidly. Timing is usually in the late afternoon. That puts us somewhere around the top of P7 or P8 on Sunday, and if we have a cell move in I'm likely to wait it out rather than execute a rapid bail only to get to the ground a 1/2 hour later and find the system has moved through and we're now in the clear. Only instead of being at the top of P7 and poised for the summit, we're at the base of the route punching the clown and spilling tears of regret.
Know wadImean?
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