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addiroids
Aug 21, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Yeah, I would second the point about the "mandatory tricams". We did it and didn't need them. I do remember that HB offsets were useful. Maybe that's just cause we had them and placed them. But that's "standard rack" for wall climbing I guess. I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out and I got on a talon hook on the side wall right away. So, again to reiterate the "standard rack" that is probably already mentioned in the route description, a hook or two wouldn't hurt.
Also, I don't remember the bolt ladder on P6? being reachy. Just for some piece of mind for you. Good luck bro and climb hard.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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dsafanda
Aug 21, 2003, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out
Isn't this the kind of destructive placement that is the reason cam hooks are somewhat frowned upon for Zion trade routes? Keep blowing out cam hooks and you wont have a route. I'm not judging...just trying to guage consensus.
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slabbyd
Aug 21, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Clearly the choice between strategies here is difficult. The route is of a length were either one might work best for you, but it comes down to a personnal choice.
Here's an idea, not sure how long you have in Zion, but consider getting in a day or two of PRACTICE on the Touchstone Wall. Without the pressure of having to get to the top you can focus on dialing in your systems, getting comfortable with you partner and the rock, figuring out what works and what doesn't. After three or four pitches of that you'll be ready to move when you get on Prodigal.
On Prodigal I'd vote for strategy #2 but after a day or two on Touchstone you'll have a much better idea of whats going to work for you and Chad. Best wishes. Zion is an amazing place!
As for camhooks in Zion. It's bull s*&t based on how often you hear of them blowing out the rock. Creative camming or a nut-and-a-prayer has gotten me through more than one blown out scar there. Leave the camhooks in the car!
Also, someone really needs to knock all that loose shit off the top of Prodigal someday. On that alone I would never climb that route behind another party.
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brianinslc
Aug 22, 2003, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I used a cam hook too on a spot (P5? the pitch with the 5' penji) but it blew half way out Isn't this the kind of destructive placement that is the reason cam hooks are somewhat frowned upon for Zion trade routes? Keep blowing out cam hooks and you wont have a route. I'm not judging...just trying to guage consensus.
Yes, please please please do NOT use cam hooks in Zion. Ruins the placements. Blows up the rock into a useless pod.
Rock in Zion is too soft for cam hooks. Its better to use a cheater stick or (re)sculpt the placement. Prodigal Son especially is suffering from the use of cam hooks (but so is Spaceshot, Moonlight, etc etc). Ugly.
Brian in SLC
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 1:21 AM
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Herro, from Kyoto Japan.
Some good advice here, thanks everyone. Ed, I say fix and shoot.
We will have to get together and talk. I need to get home and route through my gear, but yea, bring the atom smasher for fuel/water - grab a belay seat and a sweater, batteries and haul light.
I just checked the weather, major rain this coming week up to Wed and Thursday. Good part, highs in the mid 80's, bad part lows in the 50's. (Cold night in belay seat?).
If we can fix to 3 or 4 first day - let's do it. bivy at base, leave sleeping gear there, get going early and do it. Plan a long first day (many fix in the afternoon and shoot the next day). This will allow us to work our system out with each other to be smooth for the second day.
I'm fine with leading in blocks so we should think through our systems/gear based on this. I have a zip line with dedicated biners/bag we can use.
I am a PTPP gumby and hence I'm geared for his systems for soloing (short fixing in this case), zipping, hauling etc. as well as these are the only systems that I have personally climbed with.
When I get home (Monday night). I will lay out my gear drop you a line with a more detailed list of what gear I think we should take with a somewhat detailed walk through of a block lead, as I know how to do it.
Feel free to do this before I get home and sent it to me. This way, maybe we can at least mentally dial our system before we get there, and have a jump on the minimal gear least for hauling the atom smasher and doing the route with a potentially very long day/night/top bivy in mind (lows in the 50's).
Also keep in mind that I can get there Thursday and get warmed up, get gear to the base, getting a place in line (maybe fix a pitch or two) etc.
Ed - you will need to be patient with me, been working too much of late - out of shape (single day push is out) - but looking forward to it.
Chad
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climbhigher
Aug 24, 2003, 6:05 AM
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Hell Yeah!!! Now you are talking. Fuck it and do it in a PUSH!!!! Hope you guys have fun. Don't come back until you have sent!!!
LIVE DANGEROUSLY,
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the_dude
Aug 24, 2003, 6:27 AM
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Climb that route! No matter how long it takes have fun and keep climbing. Remember, down is the wrong direction!
Cheers
The Dude
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 11:37 AM
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Ok, I did a search on Prodigal Sun and did some reading and came up with the following. * shows gear Ed may want to add:
2 sets of hybrid Aliens
1 normal set of Aliens
1 set of TCU's
1 set of zeros
* all your red and yellow aliens
This gives us 5 of everything to about .94"
3 sets of cams from the .94" to 2"
2 sets of cams from 2.1" to 6.4"
3 screamers
* maybe add a few more
12 Quick draws
* suppliment for worse case number of bolts in a given ladder
10 short runners - I used these on 1st pitch last time when out of QDs
* leave these out if you bring more draws.
15 regular length runners
30 spare binners - maybe more?
2 sets of Brass HB's
1 set of alumninum HB's
1 set regular nuts
2 BD talons
Tricams (I have pink and the next size bigger (red I think)
* brown TCU
I have a 10.5mm 60 meter lead rope, a 10mm 60 meter lead rope, a 5mm 70 meter zip line and a 65 meter 11.5 static haul line. Ed do you have a 9mm lead that we could haul the atomsmasher and use for rap/jug as needed, or should we use a second lead line (my static is heavy, but is nice to jug/haul? Would we be light enough to haul the atomsmasher with the 5mm zip line (better not have to zip past 35 meters)).
1 pro-traxion for atomsmasher haul
3 gallons water (second day)
lunch dinner breakfast for 2 (second day)
pad sweater/light coat and bivy sacks?
2 light weight belay seats (forced vertical bivy)
1 mini traxion for leader zip
I would like to take enough to do a forced bivy, yet finish the climb, but still go as light as possible.
For you guys that have climbed this, does this sound right? I've heard talk of people taking big Bros I don't have any - I have 2 sets of cams up to the big boys in Friend and BD. Most of the trip reports talk about the need for 5 or 6 of the smaller cams, 3 or so hand sized, but never talk much about the big stuff. Will we need them, and if so where?
Any thoughts on this list from the forum would be appreciated.
Note for Ed,
All my Cams have color coded crabs - based on size, not set - I do rack my nuts by set.
Thanks in advance
Chad
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brutusofwyde
Aug 24, 2003, 2:49 PM
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I've seen nothing in the responses so far that will give you the best chance for success.
Prodigal is a busy route.
You are planning on doing it over a nation-wide holiday, when the Virgin River is low, and when it is one of the few easier trad routes that are mostly in the shade.
You can be totally psyched, equipmented, and rarin' to go, but if some gumby like me is having an epic on the first half of the route, going slow and eventually retreating, and you are not willing to pass them or wait them out, you will fail.
Plan extra days which may be spent at the base, due to other parties.
If waiting behind a slow party, make your presence known over at the base of the route daily. This may include stashing gear, fixing ropes, whatever it takes. Be prepared for this eventuality. It may be your best strategy, regardless of hou you actually work your logistics on the wall.
Awaiting the TR.
Brutus
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 3:14 PM
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Thanks Brutus - good observation here.
I have all the time in the world (work owes me a ton of comp time) I can get there as early as Thursday Morning and stay as long as needed. I should hopefully get a good jump on everyone hitting there Thursday -
I'm considering hanging my ledge off the roof and maybe bivy right there until Ed shows up Saturday Morning (leaving it at base for 2nd day shoot). If I'm off the ground, it's a legal bivy right? Ed did not want me to fix too far as he wants to call it climbed (fair enough) - I could solo fix Thursday and Friday based on crowds and need.
If we take emergency bivy for group in front of us screw up, or our screw up (3 gallons water, belay seat, light coat and 3 meals of fuel) for anything over the 3.5 pitch mark is what I'm thinking - yea rough bivy, but 1.5 days water/food for second half.
What do you think - Base camping should not be so much of an issue here, it's after 3.5 pitch mark - what gives us the best chance of finishing if we end up the night on the upper half somewhere?
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climbhigher
Aug 24, 2003, 4:36 PM
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DUDE!!! It's not rocket science. Here's the Rack.
3 sets of aliens (If one set is hybrid all the better)
2 sets of camalots from red to blue
1 set of hb offset nuts
1 set of hb brass nuts
1 set of the very small hb brass nuts
30 biners
15 quickdraws
THAT's a basic El CAP grade SIX rack minus the pins and more then enough for Prodigal Son.
I don't think Prodigal is an easy C2 big wall. There's some very hard placements, But you don't need any special gear. Oh yeah bring 1 gallon per person per a day, if that's to much just drink heavly. Why pack in your pack when you can pack it in your colon. And I am not a BWT or BTW whatever. Been climbing extensively for over a decade and have done all the big wall trade routes in Zion and a few more. GOOD LUCK and don't come back until it's done. If you want any more beta, just give me a holler.
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timpanogos
Aug 24, 2003, 5:50 PM
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Ok, I'm game for this rack - except -
I'm checking my cam chart here, BD blue is the #3 and ranges from 2.0" to 3.4" (2.14" at 90%, 2.46" at 50%). BD has 3 cams above the blue. I'm not going to be freeing anything above 5.8 - are you sure we are not going to need any bigger cams than the blue? It seems I used a bigger cam than that on the first piece of P2 but it's been awhile?
I also remember my first attempt at a solo of Prodigal, I jumped on a small HB brassy (might have been a number 2) and it cut right through the rock and I took a static daisy fall. I kind of figured from that time on that a #3 was likely the limit on that sand stone. What are you calling a small set?
Chad
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flamer
Aug 24, 2003, 10:41 PM
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Climbhigher has defiantly got the rack styled out! Listen to what he is saying! If you take to much stuff on this route, especially in the style you want to do it in, it will greatly increase your chance's of bailing. The first part of pitch 2 goes free right around 5.8- wear your free shoes, if I remember correctly I actually aided through on nuts- it's just reachy. You may want a #4 camalot size up high- but only take 1 and don't take any other big stuff. As far as using small brassy's in Zion goes- it all depends on the placement! I've used the itty bitty ones without trouble, just make sure you use the right tool for the job. You guys should seriously think about not hauling, have the second carry a SMALL pack. If you want to do this fast DO NOT ZIP GEAR!! This is an amazing waste of time!! This is only really needed for hard nailing routes.
HAVE FUN!!
josh
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timpanogos
Aug 25, 2003, 1:14 AM
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Just going for the pack might be a good idea, but then again 12 pounds of water (1.5 gal), maybe a pad and bivy sack (it's forecast as a raining week with lows at 50) coat and fuel - we are going to be at 20 pounds a person in personal gear
So, Flammer, you are saying do not lead in blocks? If we lead in blocks, we will have to zip gear. Seems that leading in blocks would well pay for any time zipping - and if we could pull the atomsmasher over the top with the 5mm zip line, all the better. (40 pounds personal + say 15 pounds unused rack - thats a 55 pound haul to start and 31 pound haul over the top.
Leading in blocks also leaves the second plenty of time to ready the atomsmasher for haul and dropping a protraxion for a 55 pound haul is not going to take much. - even if we use a back up dynamic lead line for hauling (or a static) - only having one rope might make me a bit nervous anyway.
humm, not sure, what do others think, remember we are new and slow, and number one goal is to succeed.
Well, I have a bus, train, plane and 14 hour negitive time warp (I get home before I leave) to go, more later - and thanks everyone
Chad
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climbhigher
Aug 25, 2003, 2:27 AM
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Chad you are thinking to much. Why are you going to bring a bivi sack and pad if you guys are going to do it in 24 hours? Just bring a rain jacket. That's all you need. And if you guys are planning on doing it in a day and just happen to bail the first time, do you guys have enough time for another go at it push?
Flamer is right don't zip gear. If you use the rack i suggested, you can easly carry it all on your double gear sling no problem. And you say you guys are new and slow. It does'nt matter how slow you are when leading as long as somebody is always moving upwards and is leading. The Key is stay in Motion. Newtons First Law.
Think light!!!! I know, it's extremely hard to let go, commit and not bring somethings, but at the same time, it's really exciting to go do a wall and just have water on your back and a rain jacket tied around your waist. It's very liberating.
Otherwise bring a Portaledge and the kitchen sink and a whole different attitude and perspective on things, After the first two days up on the wall, it's easy living up there.
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epic_ed
Aug 25, 2003, 5:01 AM
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Hehehe. Good input all around. It's been a while since Chad had time to post, be he's notorious for "posting out loud." Just gets that rambling stream of consciousness going and somehow it all ends up on the computer screen. ;-) But he always has great questions.
My thinking about the rack -- we'll deal with the particulars via email, but I'm used to wearing the whole rack. No matter what we carry it will be a hell of a lot lighter than the crap I've been soloing with. Zip line for blocks? Maybe the second day. But keep in mind we'll need two ropes to fix to the top of P3 or P4. Might as well just use one of those for a tag line that first day. Then drop the second rope on day 2 and use the lighter zip line.
As Chad mentioned, our best chance for success is to fix on day 1 and then blast. I don't think either one opf us is in good enough shape for a one day push.
Brutus makes an excellent point about crowds. I had Prodigal to myself on Memorial Day weekend this year due to temps. I think the heat kept most people away. We might get lucky again, but unfortunately, I only have Sat, Sun to climb. I'm counting on Chad to jockey for position on Friday. I could climb Monday and do the usual "call in sick/I epiced over the weekend" routine at work.
Let's just go climb the damn thing. ;-)
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flamer
Aug 25, 2003, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: So, Flammer, you are saying do not lead in blocks? If we lead in blocks, we will have to zip gear. Seems that leading in blocks would well pay for any time zipping - and if we could pull the atomsmasher over the top with the 5mm zip line, all the better. (40 pounds personal + say 15 pounds unused rack - thats a 55 pound haul to start and 31 pound haul over the top. Chad
Ok, I think you are talking about short fixing, which is slightly different then leading in blocks. If you are going to short fix than, yes you might want to have a zip line. If you are going to use the traditional method of leading in blocks, then zipping gear would be a bad idea.
55 POUNDS??? Dude! Either commit to firing or do it with a ledge and a bag! If you need 55 pounds worth of stuff to "fix and fire" you are going to have some problem's!!
I believe it was Chouinard who said " If you take bivi gear, you will use it".
Light is right!!
Have fun!!
josh
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ep
Aug 25, 2003, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: humm, not sure, what do others think, remember we are new and slow, and number one goal is to succeed
No offense you guys, but I think that quote and the fact that you're asking the online world what you should do says a lot. I honestly wish you the best of luck. But if there was a betting window and I had decent odds on the "Ed and Chad Try to Fire" line, I'd be betting against you.
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wigglestick
Aug 25, 2003, 10:10 PM
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I agree. You are kind of putting the cart before the horse, so to speak by saying that your number one goal is to succeed. Your number one goal should be to move as efficiently as possible and success will just be a by product of this goal. And don't give me this crap about not being in good enough shape to do it in a single push. I am a wuss and does not take a ultra athlete to climb 9 pitches in a day. Especially when you are sitting around belaying for half the time. Each of you take a camelback with your own personal water/food/shell/etc. Take 2 ropes and climb the damn thing. Set a point of no return and stick to it. When I did it it was starting to get dark about 6:30. My partner and I decided that if we weren't at the top of pitch 5 by 5:00 we would bail. Otherwise we would just deal with whatever happened. And don't worry about hiking down in the dark. The trail down is as easy as they come, its mostly paved. In fact I suggest you do hike down in the dark so that you don't have to deal with all the tourons asking dumb question the whole way down.
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crotch
Aug 25, 2003, 10:17 PM
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As far as rack goes, I think doubles on stoppers, aliens and camalots should be fine. I'd bring the #4 camalot, and throw in a set of hybrid aliens and all of the HB offsets. 1 talon, 1 cliffhanger. Pink, red, blue, brown tricams.
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epic_ed
Aug 25, 2003, 10:39 PM
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Climbing never is and never has been about summits for me. I do this stuff because it's fun, because I love the personal challenge, and for dozens of other reason that have nothing to do with meeting other people's expectations. I've learned at least as much about myself and about climbing during some of my worst failures as I have after many of my triumphs. This wall will be for me like the others that have preceeded it; the reward is in the journey and in all of the aspects that make up the big wall experience. For me this includes the pre-climb mental preperation, the planning, the sorting of gear, the buying of meals, the travel to the destination, the agonizing hike in with the massive loads of gear, the thrill of tieing in, the terror of standing on a completely jingus piece of gear, and the relief of sinking the next bomber piece. The summit is nice, but it's such a damn small piece of the puzzle.
Will we succeed? If reaching the top of Prodigal is the defining parameter, maybe. Maybe not. But don't mistake this exchange of mental ramblings, questioning, and second guessing as the fumblings of a couple of incompetent boobs. We ask questions on-line inforums like this because we have come to know that there are many members of the website who have trudged the road before us, and we have come to know and respect the input they have to offer in situations like ours. We know the options and the variables. Part of belonging in this community of aid climbers on rockclimbing.com is throwing our plans, hopes, and aspirations out there for review by our peers. For me, it's all part of the experience.
So root for us, or bet against us. I really don't care. What matters to me is already well in the works and no matter what happens I guaran-freakin-tee were going to have a blast this weekend.
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 26, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Whether you succeed, or whether you fail, it takes balls to announce your intentions to the whole world. Looking forward to hearing how you make out.
Just go there, start climbing, and don't bail. You'll eventually reach the summit. It works for me.
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ep
Aug 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: Whether you succeed, or whether you fail, it takes balls to announce your intentions to the whole world.
I disagree.
In reply to: Looking forward to hearing how you make out.
I am too. Good luck Ed & Chad.
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 3:04 AM
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Yea, sorry everyone, I let it all ramble out - and over analyze - but please bear with me as I have been way caught up in work for 1.5 months now, and I need to quickly get my head/thinking back into the systems.
Along with everything else that could cause failure - I've learned that Cluster F---age rates right up there, I'm happy with the gear feedback I've gotten and I will get with Ed privately to finish this out. We got good beta here, thanks everyone. In fact I'm tending toward Climbhighers latest comment (raincoat and a prayer and commit), but I'm also not afraid of a 50 pound atom smasher haul as long as we do not cluster f.... Ed and I can also work this out in private. If you guys would bear with me for one more thing - I'm working on quick list for input on leading in blocks (sorry total gumby here, don't understanding what benefit (or how it works) leading in blocks without the lead taking off on solo - fixing short - and leaving the 2nd to clean and haul. Pete and I did this on the Prow and I thought it went very smoothly, and with basically hauling (heck zipping) such a light load - I'm not so concerned.
Now Ed, as a warning, it sounds like I might be a lot more Goal oriented than you (top oriented that is). Sure I'm after the experience also, and also have my risk limits - but make no mistake - I'm headed for the top on these climbs. I had success with Pete on the Prow and I want to start getting some routes ticked off as completed. climbed, done, summited. Hitting the summit is important to me personally. Sure I might easily eat these words with our trip report come next week - but like someone said earlier - if you pack for bivy you are going to bivy - modified in this case to - if you are wishywashy about Summit orientation - that old rubber band is likely to win on the down side.
I'm going to pop a list out here in a bit, everyone please comment - I would personally like to lead in blocks, fixing short with the leader taking off on solo after fixing. If we have the steps in our head before we get there, we should be able to move smoothly and with no cluster f... I just want to make sure we have a good system, that we can decide to go with, and get import for improvement from the aid crew.
Thanks
Chad
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timpanogos
Aug 26, 2003, 5:09 AM
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Assuming lead is on belay for his first pitch
1. Lead gets to the anchor station.
a. lead has an empty zip line bag with him.
b. lead has an empty lead line bag with him.
2. setup bidirectional equalized anchor with Power-Point (all good bolt stations so no problems here).
3. Lead daisies into the Power-Point with transient lockers.
4. Lead calls off belay and unties from the lead line.
a. 2nd drops belay
b. 2nd readies the zip.
5. Lead pulls up all excess lead line, stacking it in rope bucket as he goes
a. Pete, I think you pulled loops and tied backup knots for the whole of the loose end. Any none obvious pro's/con's of having the extra rope on you instead of feeding from the rope bucket?
6. Lead fixes the lead line short with an alpine butterfly on a designated transient locker on the Power-Point
7. Lead zips the haul line, empty lead bucket and Pro-traxion, stacking zip in bucket as pulls it up.
8. Lead sets/loads the Pro-traxion and empty lead bucket that came up with zip (now haul bucket)
a. ties off loose end with backup knot to Power-Point with transient locker.
b. 2nd fixes the atom-smasher short with alpine butterfly and lowers out as needed.
c. 2nd starts cleaning the pitch - unless there is a potential of atom-smasher snagging
d. in case of potential snag - Lead hauls - at least to safe distance. (atom smasher haul - leader should be able to just hand over hand this, slowing down for stacking more than anything).
9. Lead clips a screamer to the Power-Point.
a. leaving enough lead rope for screamer deployment, leader ties another alpine butterfly in the lead line and connects to other end of screamer to it.
b. note, this leaves the 2nd jugging on the solid fixed short butterfly on the Power-Point. The screamer is the dynamic belay link on the anchor, with the juggers butterfly as a backup.
If we can not get all of the steps to here done in about 5 minutes we are sightseeing!
10. Lead sets up grigri for solo and ties a backup loop/knot to his designated backup knot locker on his harness.
11. Leader unclips his daisies from the Power-Point and takes off.
Ok, 2nd's story from step 12.
12. 2nd finishes cleaning the pitch.
a. 2nd sorts gear as he cleans so he can quickly zip as needed when he hits anchor
13. 2nd daisies into the Power-Point and clears his ascender.
a. his grigri is now in the right position to belay in a bit.
13. 2nd hauls the atom-smasher.
a. mini-pig has empty (or partially empty) haul line bucket, lets take 3 lead/haul rope buckets and two zip line buckets total (I have/use the Fish Big and medium wall bags for this)
b. mini-pig has empty zip bucket at this point.
14. 2nd ties off the pig to designated transient locker on Power-Point
a. I would still suggest using load release here, not because of weight but
1). 2nd in step 8a above can more easily fix the haul line short on the pig.
2). there are traverses where lower out might be warranted, and more easily done.
3). If I get a new 9mm rope as noted below, haul ends will switch each haul on my new rope! -
4). 2nd will have plenty of time deal with this anyway.
15. 2nd zips an empty lead bag, empty zip bag and the cleaned rack
a. zipping could happen anytime after 13 as needed.
16. 2nd sets up his belay chair and disconnects the lead line from the anchor (jugging butterfly and solo anchor screamer) and puts the lead back on belay.
a. awaits leads arrival to anchor and go to step 1
Ok, one possible alternate - I'm kicking around the idea of getting a 9mm, 60 meter, jugging/rapp/zip line for a second rope.
Everything is basically the same, except
7. lead is going to have to have the Pro-traxion and rope bags on him above the zip point.
8d. Lead is going to have to haul at least 1/2, as he needs to take the free end of the haul line with him for next pitch zip.
15. This step will have to happen no later than 30 meters into the next pitch.
For those of you that do use the 9mm goody - do you make this a static line or a dynamic? For example, Is 9mm just plain crazy for an emergency lead line?
Ed' I think we can study this out in our minds, agree on a sequence beforehand and things should just flow from there - dang, exciting, sounds easier - Hell like ClimbHigher said, if we were flowing smooth on sat, don't stop.
It might also make sense to do 3 or more in a block depending on the climb (i.e. 1 to 3, don't link but 3 blocks). Find those standing belays to switch lead on.
Wow, after writting this, Pete sent me the following link - makes me feel better, I think I had it by thinking it through - however, note my modification of using the 9mm but leaving the 5mm zip line at home. Ed - Pete's description gives much more detail on gear setup etc. worth reading.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=34421
Ok everyone, let me have it..
Thanks
Out of shape - but starting to get excited here!
Chad
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