|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 5:50 PM
Post #26 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: In reply to: I'm a light is right kind'a guy. Do things faster and carry less stuff. josh Nice, which is why I don't understand why you would want to cary a heavy Yates adjustable daisy and a lower out line...when you can easily dock the haul bag to the anchor WITH the lower out line? It is not like the munter-mule knot is difficult to tie, plus the paractice may come in handy if you need to use it in a self rescue situation someday.
So your docking tether is over 50' long?
I don't carry an extra lower out line, I use the haul line, after tying the bag in short.
Heavy YATES ADC huh? I wonder what the difference in weight between 20 ft of 8mm cord and a Yates ADC is? It isn't much.
Self rescue is an entirely different thing....why don't you start another thread?
Just because you don't like it(and haven't tried it) doesn't mean it isn't a good tool.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
ep
Nov 17, 2003, 5:51 PM
Post #27 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 88
|
Yates adj. daisy is 6 oz. Twenty feet of 7mm cord... about the same.
For climbing alone I'd have to agree with Lambone. There's nobody above to take the last bit of slack out of the haul line, so even on a straight up pitch you have to lower it off the anchor, usually a little more than five feet. The adj. daisy sounds nice for the quicker clip in and maybe fine tuning the position of the bag at a bivy. But if you have to carry both the daisy and the 20' line, it cuts into the fast and light idea just a little.
The munter mule with a backup does take longer to tie than clipping in a daisy. I had the knot jam once when I went to release it and nearly had to cut the damn line. On the other hand, what would you do if, by accident, you managed to get the pig off the anchor on a traversing pitch and onto the end of the adj. daisy?
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Nov 17, 2003, 6:14 PM
Post #28 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
In reply to: "The munter mule with a backup does take longer to tie than clipping in a daisy. I had the knot jam once when I went to release it and nearly had to cut the damn line.
That's because you used the wrong knot! A munter mule as I understand it is tied with a single rope, using slippery overhand knots. A heavy load will crush these slipknots together as you describe.
A Load Release Knot on the other hand is a completely different animal. Your Docking Tether is made from two cords which after you double through the munter, you twist around each other and tie with a square knot. It is a far superior knot.
In reply to: "I don't carry an extra lower out line, I use the haul line, after tying the bag in short."
This is clearly the Better Way. Dr. Piton advocates you buy a haul line that is LONG. At least 215' by 10mm static. Rarely will you need an extra lower-out line, however you have to consider the extra weight.
In reply to: "On the other hand, what would you do if, by accident, you managed to get the pig off the anchor on a traversing pitch and onto the end of the adj. daisy?"
You would, in Dr. Piton parlance, be buggered. Which has been my point all along.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 6:15 PM
Post #29 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: The munter mule with a backup does take longer to tie than clipping in a daisy. I had the knot jam once when I went to release it and nearly had to cut the damn line. On the other hand, what would you do if, by accident, you managed to get the pig off the anchor on a traversing pitch and onto the end of the adj. daisy?
I would reel that sucker back in(because all you'd have to do is pullin the slack) and start over.
Or personally I'd put in alittle grunt work- pull on the daisy and use the split second where it's unweighted to unclip the biner from the anchor.
This ADC truly isn't complex! I've used it soloing and it worked great!
And Again I'll say there is a time and a place for everything...sometimes it's better to use the tether sometimes it's better to use the ADC.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Nov 17, 2003, 6:17 PM
Post #30 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
In reply to: "Or personally I'd put in alittle grunt work- pull on the daisy and use the split second where it's unweighted to unclip the biner from the anchor."
Yikes! The whole idea behind using a Docking Tether is so you never - EVER - have to do this!
|
|
|
|
|
capn_morgan
Nov 17, 2003, 6:18 PM
Post #31 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 565
|
Interesting topic. Just curious, but would you guys be interested in taking part in a critique of the haul bag as you know it? Having never used one myself i can only imagine that there are many ways in which this process could be streamlined. Im thinking this may be an interesting topic for some future design project. If you guys think its a reasoable idea we can start a new thread so as not to hijack this one.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 6:30 PM
Post #32 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Or personally I'd put in alittle grunt work- pull on the daisy and use the split second where it's unweighted to unclip the biner from the anchor." Yikes! The whole idea behind using a Docking Tether is so you never - EVER - have to do this!
And I've never had too while using the ADC method.
I was simply answering a hypothetical question. If you did it right you'd never have too...
Course if you look you'll see that Ep had a problem with the munter locking up on him...nothing works as expected every time.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
ep
Nov 17, 2003, 6:34 PM
Post #33 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 88
|
In reply to: That's because you used the wrong knot! A munter mule as I understand it is tied with a single rope... A Load Release Knot on the other hand is... made from two cords which after you double through the munter, you twist around each other and tie with a square knot.
Sounds good, except that you need twice as much cord. I've only had that knot jam once, so I'm not convinced it's a major problem. All kinds of things get f*#d up on walls. I'm mainly worried about problems that are irreversible. Flamer says reeling in the haulbag on a fully extended daisy is just a little grunt work and Pete says that he wants to always avoid that. For something that rarely happens but is still reversible, I'm willing to accept that my penalty for the mistake is a little extra effort.
Now for irreversible mistakes, like say, dropping your haulbag off the wall, I think it's worth figuring out systems where this just can't ever happen. :)
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Nov 17, 2003, 6:35 PM
Post #34 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
I prefer to have ~20 ft. of perlon tethered to the bag for small lowerouts and general docking purposes. I have a 250 ft. 9.5 mm haul liine which I use similarly (bag tied into the middle somewhere) for longer lower outs. I like having the long line b/c it's not much heavier than a shorter one (not at all while leading), but it will often be long enough to fix two pitches or haul two pitches as one. I can't imagine going up on a wall w/o a hunk of perlon for bailing if need be, so it's not extra gear either.
I am often not strong enough to lift a pig up at a hanging belay, so without assistance from above, I need to use a load-releasing knot or rig a pulley. The knot is definately easier.
I would worry about the buckles on the ADC getting thrashed or snagged on the drag up the wall. An advantage to the method that I can see though is that you'd have an extra ADC in case your buckles started to slip.
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Nov 17, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #35 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
munter-mule vrs. mariner knot (PTPP "load-release knot)
Personaly I like the munter-mule because it is quicker to tie. I've never had a problem with untying the munter-mule. It is more useful in self rescue situations and docking the haul bag is perfect practice.
Yates ADC idea, forget it...I have no reason to spend $ on another daisy when my 20ft beater chunk of 10mil chord works just fine. Why potentialy make yourself have to muscle around with the bags to release a daisy chain, doesn't make sense to me...
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Nov 17, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #36 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
munter-mule vrs. mariner knot (PTPP "load-release knot)
Personaly I like the munter-mule because it is quicker to tie. I've never had a problem with untying the munter-mule. It is more useful in self rescue situations and docking the haul bag is perfect practice.
Yates ADC idea, forget it...I have no reason to spend $ on another daisy when my 20ft beater chunk of 10mil chord works just fine. Why potentialy make yourself have to muscle around with the bags to release a daisy chain, doesn't make sense to me...
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 8:05 PM
Post #37 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: Yates ADC idea, forget it...I have no reason to spend $ on another daisy when my 20ft beater chunk of 10mil chord works just fine. Why potentialy make yourself have to muscle around with the bags to release a daisy chain, doesn't make sense to me...
DUDE!!! You don't have to muscle anything around!!!
To use a Pete term- what you are saying is THEORY!!! You've never tried it so you don't know!!!
Melissa you should try this, Because It takes no strentgh at all!!!
(and I'm certainly not calling you weak!!!)
As far as the buckles getting torn up- yep it could be a problem. I just tuck it on top off the bag(not inside) and it is well protected.
But I have seen docking tethers get core shots on one haul. This is a problem that need's to be mitigated either way.
Listen I've used this thing on several walls, in several places. I have friends who've now done the same. And we all love it, why ??? Becaus eit works!!!
Go try it then tell me you don't like it...other wise just use what you like and SHUT UP!!!
josh
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Nov 17, 2003, 8:49 PM
Post #38 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Had I a spare daisy with a buckle that didn't slip, I would try it.
Have we beat this thread to death yet?
|
|
|
|
|
ep
Nov 17, 2003, 8:52 PM
Post #39 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 88
|
In reply to: I've used it soloing and it worked great!
I mentioned before that even on straight up pitches I usually lower the bag off the anchor more than the length of a daisy since there isn't anyone above to take up the last bit of slack in the haul line. How do you deal with this? Do you use a short cord as well as the ADC? Or do you take a haul line longer than your lead line so you can always keep a tail in it? Or... ?
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Nov 17, 2003, 8:52 PM
Post #40 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
no you shut up :roll:
jeeze dude, just offering my opion, as it is my right...don't get your panties in a bunch.
Give me a Yates ADC and I'll try your system once if it'll make you feel better.
You can go on and on about how great it is, and people will keep coming back with reasons why they think it is better, and then we can keep going round and round in circles until it is time to punch out from work. Then we can come back and do it all over again tommorow.
It isn't world peace, it is getting haul bags off of the anchor... :roll:
go climb something
|
|
|
|
|
russwalling
Nov 17, 2003, 9:30 PM
Post #41 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 239
|
A bunch of people wrote:
**Interesting stuff.... somewhat flawed, but interesting.**
#1: An Adjustable Daisy Chain (ADC) in itself does not make a 2:1. In classic mode with the haul bag hanging on the daisy strap, the buckle above at the fixed point and then pulling down on the other end is a 1:1. In fact, with all the friction from the edge of the buckle it is much less than a 1:1. For it to be a 2:1, the end of the daisy strap needs to be at a high fixed point, the actual buckle down on the bag, and the pull being upwards on the free end. Again, friction is eating away at this and you are not going to get 2:1 results.
#2: I use an ADC on the haul bag. In fact (blatant plug) for next year some FISH Haul Bags will come with an ADC as standard issue. On thing to remember is to ALWAYS tie the real haul line into the anchor as a back up before you disconnect the hauling system. A simple knot and biner clipped into the anchor will suffice. This way if the daisy chain snaps, a biner breaks (done this) or some sort of mishap rears its head, the bag will not go all the way to the end of the line or worse, to the ground.
#3: Yet to hear the fast and simple method for getting the bags out of the station. Loop a tieoff into the anchor, clip the haul bag into the loop with the daisy chain, tie the backup knot in the real haul line and clip to the anchor, disconnect hauling machine. When you need to get the bags out, set up a Munter, GriGri, ATC, whatever to the lowerout (if you have one) and simply cut the tie off. If you lose your knife, hit on the tieoff loop against the wall with your hammer. No hammer? Get on a harder wall. The heavier the loads, the better this system works. A 76 pound girl can free the bags in 10 seconds. Scared of knives? Those .49cent folding scissors will do the trick as well.
#4: Always beware the clusterphuk methods of mystery knots, swivels, 9:1 keg haulers, 200ft lowerout lines, and all the rest of the BS. Hidden in there are some neat circus tricks, but simple, effective, and safe methods are less "theory" than you might think. They also have a way of adding summits to your big wall tick list.
adios,
Russ
http://www.FishProducts.com
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 10:00 PM
Post #42 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: In reply to: I've used it soloing and it worked great! I mentioned before that even on straight up pitches I usually lower the bag off the anchor more than the length of a daisy since there isn't anyone above to take up the last bit of slack in the haul line. How do you deal with this? Do you use a short cord as well as the ADC? Or do you take a haul line longer than your lead line so you can always keep a tail in it? Or... ?
Ok good question!
When I solo plumb pitch's, I take the hauler/ haul line up with me. When I get to the anchor after fixing my leadline(I pull up the "loose end" and tie that in), I pull all the slack out of the haul line until the bag starts to move on the lower anchor.
I then RAP MY LEAD LINE To clean.
When I get back to the lower anchor I push the "magic button"(on the ADC) and the bag is weighting the haul line.
Now traversing pitch's are obviously more complex!!
Oh crap I don't feel like explaining them!
Lambone! No you shut up!!X2!!HAHA!!!!
josh
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 10:05 PM
Post #43 of 43
(4728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: A bunch of people wrote: **Interesting stuff.... somewhat flawed, but interesting.** #1: An Adjustable Daisy Chain (ADC) in itself does not make a 2:1. In classic mode with the haul bag hanging on the daisy strap, the buckle above at the fixed point and then pulling down on the other end is a 1:1. In fact, with all the friction from the edge of the buckle it is much less than a 1:1. For it to be a 2:1, the end of the daisy strap needs to be at a high fixed point, the actual buckle down on the bag, and the pull being upwards on the free end. Again, friction is eating away at this and you are not going to get 2:1 results. #2: I use an ADC on the haul bag. In fact (blatant plug) for next year some FISH Haul Bags will come with an ADC as standard issue. On thing to remember is to ALWAYS tie the real haul line into the anchor as a back up before you disconnect the hauling system. A simple knot and biner clipped into the anchor will suffice. This way if the daisy chain snaps, a biner breaks (done this) or some sort of mishap rears its head, the bag will not go all the way to the end of the line or worse, to the ground.
Russ,
Always good to hear what you have to say!!
I'm thrilled to find out that you will be incorporating this into some of your haul bags!! I've been thinking this would be a great idea for awhile.
Thanks for clarifying the 2:1 point- I'll be turning the sucker around promptly!! I should have realised...duh!
I agree that simple is (generally) better!
NOW ABOUT THOSE RUSSIAN AIDERS...
josh
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
