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timpanogos
Jan 30, 2004, 7:05 AM
Post #101 of 128
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Russ,
Thanks for the wall bags - love em, and the shirt is great.
btw, you know I want another set - it is good to know that you are willing build a set of tiers if we send in rings.
My tiers are getting worn pretty good at the binner connection loop.
How much to rebuild my 2 fish tiers?
Chad
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epic_ed
Jan 30, 2004, 9:56 PM
Post #102 of 128
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Copied, with permission, from a PM exchange with Russ:
In reply to: **Is it the hook material or the hook design that is the biggest problem?** problems: 1. said I would use Trangos guy. 2. Hook is an odd shape, which will not really matter, but the body of the hook is quite wide with a slot for webbing milled into it. All the hooks available premaid have small holes for the webbing and they will not really sit well against your leg. The "slot" is the key to hook remaining oriented and the base is wide enough to keep it from rotating. 3. material does not matter. I would not have used Ti but the Russian seem to have a bunch of it or something. I would use 4130 or even a good 1030 heattreaded. Not that big of a deal. Solutions: we need: friends with a drop forge, plasma cutter and a mill and heat treat shop. Could probably use a guy with a stamping machine, a bender then a heat treat. Not insurmountable, but involved for short runs. I currently have all the hooks available hanging on the wall with each one having been tested in the application. Not a great success, but there is some promise. Feel free to diseminate this info as you like. (always wanted to use the word diseminate (sp?) Off to Joshua Tree..... blab later, Russ
So -- any solutions to help with the hook? I'm going to talk to a few friends to see if I can get a line on a source for a 4130 metal for the hooks and a good price, but I think the metal source sounds like the least of the problems. Anyone out there know how we might be able to help Russ pull together this process with as little expense as possible?
Let's see if we can pool ideas and resources to finally bring these things to reality.
Thanks -- Ed
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mesomorf
Jan 31, 2004, 12:01 AM
Post #103 of 128
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In reply to: problems: 1. said I would use Trangos guy.
In reply to: Solutions: we need: friends with a drop forge, plasma cutter and a mill and heat treat shop. Could probably use a guy with a stamping machine, a bender then a heat treat. Not insurmountable, but involved for short runs. |
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whipper
Jan 31, 2004, 12:36 AM
Post #104 of 128
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Registered: May 21, 2002
Posts: 241
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hey russ count up another one willing to pre pay. I have not said much, just waiting patiently but I will gert a pair some way or another
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bsignorelli
Jan 31, 2004, 12:50 AM
Post #105 of 128
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I'll prepay too if a reasonable delivery date can be set.
Bryan
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zetedog
Jan 31, 2004, 1:23 AM
Post #106 of 128
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I'm in for two sets, and I'll be willing to prepay. My trango set has so much duct tape and personal modification done to them they probably won't survive another pitch.
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aid312
Jan 31, 2004, 1:25 AM
Post #107 of 128
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I'll take a set too.
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justsendingits
Feb 1, 2004, 6:47 AM
Post #108 of 128
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
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I would also prepay for two sets....
R
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malabarista
Feb 4, 2004, 1:36 AM
Post #109 of 128
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Posts: 46
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I will prepay two sets as well, if that will help the process.
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adilet
Jul 11, 2004, 3:42 AM
Post #110 of 128
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I just wanted to share the knowledge with aspiring aid climbers:
This guy ships knee-hooks without etriers from russia:
http://stores.ebay.com/URALSPORT
he doesn't always list them , so write and ask. There is also a plenty of high level titanium gear. It the same company which makes the gear sold in US under "Ushba" brand.I've already got mine and they look really nice, with adjustable length and a hook made of titanium.
You can see them on this website:
http://www.alvoti.sitext.ru/katalog/ito_big_wall/
it is in russian, just scroll down and look for item number 67.00
Hope this helps.
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teth
Jun 22, 2006, 6:56 PM
Post #111 of 128
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So, now it is 2006 and it looks like Fish is selling the trees (I will likely order a set soon), but still not Russian Aiders? I am a n00b to aid climbing, hardly even a little wall theorist yet, but I want to start aid climbing and the Russian Aiders just make way more sense to me than the standard aiders. I mocked up a pair with webbing and a biner hooking a daisy chain to test out the leverage and even that primitive setup seemed to work well in basement testing. I am going to try it out on a small crag this weekend. I am going to be aid climbing at a bouldering festival (should get some mystified looks).
Anyway, I want to buy a set of Russian Aiders if they become available, otherwise I guess I will have to make a set of KungFu Aiders.
Teth
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billcoe_
Jun 23, 2006, 3:53 AM
Post #112 of 128
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
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Yup, my old set is almost worn out, this is what I want, but I don't want to try and cobble it together or sew it my own self.
If Russ can't do it............
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fenderfour
Jun 23, 2006, 3:44 PM
Post #113 of 128
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Registered: Sep 12, 2005
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I purchased a set of Uralsport Russian Aiders through a friend in Moscow. They suck.
Don't get me wrong, the system is great. It's the webbing and buckles that are horrible. I would be surprised if the webbing lasts more than one season of casual aid climbing. The "buckles" are nothing more than two flattened Ti rings. They hold the webbing for about 2 moves while climbing.
I will be sewing my own leg "harness" for the hook out of beefy tubular webbing. I will post the list of parts and a rough pattern sometime in the next few weeks, after they are done.
The difficult thing is getting the hooks. I now have a set of Ti hooks from my Uralsport set. I don't know where you could get more.
If I were to post some dimensioned pics, would someone be able to weld them? Steel would work fine, even though it would rust.
If Trango and Fish won't make these, maybe we can fill the gap here.
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valygrl
Jun 23, 2006, 4:06 PM
Post #114 of 128
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After a couple of seasons using the Trango RA's I'd say... don't bother UNLESS you are doing serious hard aid, that required no free climbiing. The transition to free is totally lame w/ the russians, because you have webbing under your arches and hooks on your knees - so you slip around and hook stuff all the time. Totally lame. And you always have that junk around your legs - hot and irritating. And, at the bivy, if you want to, for example, rap down to the pig and then jug back up, you have to put that thing on your leg, or borrow a regular ladder from your partner.
I did SFWC with the russians a little while ago, and decided to use old fashioned yates aiders for the nose - and it was the right choice for sure! RA's are cool in that you can stand on both feet w/o having to carry a second tree, so stepping up high is a little easier, but the drawbacks seriously outweigh this one benefit. Also, notwithstanding all the old posts about how you can high step better... you actually can't get higher in the RA's top ring than the 2nd step of a regular aider. So the highstep benefit is an illusion.
my $0.02...
anna
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teth
Jun 28, 2006, 3:06 PM
Post #115 of 128
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Registered: Jun 22, 2006
Posts: 51
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I am starting to get the components together for my Russian Aiders (KungFu design). I have put in an order with Fish for two trees.
I got some snazzy looking steel hooks from Home Depot but thought they were crap when one appeared to crack when I was adjusting the angle of the hook in a vice. When I went back to the store to look for a better hook the sales person explained that the hook I had bought was nickel plated over steel and it would have only been the nickel plating which cracked. So I went home an took a file to it to get enough of the plating off to inspect the steel underneath, and he was right, so the hooks are good. I sprayed the spot with Tremclad paint to keep it from rusting. I managed to adjust the second hook without damaging the coting so it looks snazzy. (Not that the way it looks is much of a priority for me.)
My plan is to stich the Russian Aiders by hand just to hold them together, then take them to a cobbler and have the cobbler resew each of my stiches with heavy duty thread. Another option would be to go to a sail manufacturer.
Valygrl has a point about trying to free climb with 2" webbing on the bottom of your foot. I was thinking of getting the cobbler to stitch some scrap rubber to the bottom of the stirrup for some added friction. Anyone see any problems with this idea?
Also in regard to Valygrl’s message, can’t you get higher than the top ring by hooking directly into your piece?
Teth Cleveland
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kungfuclimber
Jun 28, 2006, 3:34 PM
Post #116 of 128
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Registered: Aug 6, 2002
Posts: 162
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Hey Teth,
Not sure what valley girl was going on about regarding the webbing. That 2" of webbing goes in the middle of your foot, in the arch. When I free climb I use the ball and toes of my feet, not the arch. If a hold is big enough that I'm standing flat-footed on it then slipping should not be a concern.
KungFuClimber
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brianinslc
Jun 28, 2006, 3:49 PM
Post #117 of 128
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Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
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In reply to: Valygrl has a point about trying to free climb with 2" webbing on the bottom of your foot. I was thinking of getting the cobbler to stitch some scrap rubber to the bottom of the stirrup for some added friction. Anyone see any problems with this idea?
That webbing in the arch of my foot has never been an issue with regard to freeclimbing. I rarely get any purchase from that part of my climbing shoe anyhoo.
In reply to: Also in regard to Valygrl’s message, can’t you get higher than the top ring by hooking directly into your piece?
Yep. Wire on a stopper, loop on a cam, biner, anywhere that hook will fit.
Beauty system. Thanks to Brewtus of Wyde for showing me the way.
-Brian in SLC
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tim
Jun 28, 2006, 4:07 PM
Post #118 of 128
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Registered: Apr 4, 2002
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In reply to: After a couple of seasons using the Trango RA's I'd say... don't bother UNLESS you are doing serious hard aid, that required no free climbiing. The transition to free is totally lame w/ the russians, because you have webbing under your arches and hooks on your knees - so you slip around and hook stuff all the time. Totally lame. And you always have that junk around your legs - hot and irritating. And, at the bivy, if you want to, for example, rap down to the pig and then jug back up, you have to put that thing on your leg, or borrow a regular ladder from your partner.
This is a useful data point. I've been thinking about the transition lately and it occurred to me that the times I most like my Russians are when hooking, nailing overhanging stuff with nowhere to stabilize my feet, etc. Whereas I have several times inadvertently hooked an edge with the calf hooks, or skittered when I really shouldn't have as a result of a buckle (rather than body part) not providing friction, etc. On 5.8 terrain this is no big deal. On 5.10 terrain (eg. the Nose) I suspected it might become a problem. Sounds like I wasn't too far off base. However, I am a clumsy brute of a free climber; someone more graceful might never notice this. Perhaps more of a concern to me is that I feel obligated to wear pants when using the Russians, lest the buckles dig in and draw blood. That can be a real drag when trying to keep cool on a sunny pitch involving face climbing.
Congratulations on the Nose -- it sounds more and more to me like it's an exercise in choosing a low-traffic week and freeing everything you possibly can, at least if you want to enjoy the route. Is that about right?
In reply to: I did SFWC with the russians a little while ago, and decided to use old fashioned yates aiders for the nose - and it was the right choice for sure! RA's are cool in that you can stand on both feet w/o having to carry a second tree, so stepping up high is a little easier, but the drawbacks seriously outweigh this one benefit. Also, notwithstanding all the old posts about how you can high step better... you actually can't get higher in the RA's top ring than the 2nd step of a regular aider. So the highstep benefit is an illusion.
The only nit that I have to pick with this statement is that, with RA's, you can use the hook to step directly into (for example) the loop on an Alien, or a hook for that matter. Practically speaking though, I can think of maybe 4 or 5 times that I have done so, but for vertical progress it is quite nice (gets an extra 4-6" or so out of the system!).
I like my RA's, especially for awkward nailing bits, but I also have a pair of lightweight pocket aiders that I keep around for friends who wouldn't normally do aid routes. Looks like I should be using those myself for the RNWF of Half Dome and other go-fast, mostly-free-with-some-aid routes; they don't weigh much, they don't tangle much, and they seem like a better choice than the whole Russian setup if you're freeing as much as aiding.
Seems like it's another case of "right tool for the job": Russians are easier for straight aid climbing, lightweight ladders are less hassle for mostly-free routes that involve a few spots of C1-C2 crack jugging and nut lobbing.
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teth
Jun 28, 2006, 5:13 PM
Post #119 of 128
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Registered: Jun 22, 2006
Posts: 51
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I had read Valygrl’s post before I did some field testing with webbing and biners on the weekend, so I may have been presensitized. I did have some slippage issues while free climbing above my anchor to set my first piece, but I was back stepping on a sloping (35 degrees) concave ledge in the rain, so my slippage issues may have been due to unusual circumstances.
I will probably only add the rubber on the bottom of the stirrup if it is convenient to do so. It still might help protect the webbing from damage when walking around in them on the flat.
Oh, and kungfuclimber, thanks for posting your instructions for making these things. I think I could have figured a workable system myself, but it makes it so much easier when someone has already done the work. It also makes it easier when you have a nice list of what you need to buy and in what lengths before you start. Thanks!
Teth
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teth
Aug 8, 2006, 3:02 PM
Post #120 of 128
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Registered: Jun 22, 2006
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I finally received my Russian aid trees from Fish. Thanks Russ! I had not specified a colour preference so my trees turned out to be an army green with one tree having black webbing branches and the other having dark green branches. This drab colour arrangement looks very Soviet to me, which I find very appropriate for part of the Russian aid system.
I had to make some adjustments to my Russian Aiders now that I had a proper set of aid trees. The aid trees I had made out of cord had loops which tended to flare out horizontally so that I could often hook them from above. The titanium rings on the new trees hang vertically so that the hook has to be pushed through the ring before moving down to hook. I had to straighten my hooks a bit so that they point slightly forward. I also filed them into more of a point to make it easier to slide the hook into the ring when the ring is partially blocked by hanging webbing and such. If I was designing hooks for Russian Aiders I would put a forward bent flare right at the tip of the hook so that it could easily be pushed through the vertically hanging loop, and once through, the climber would just have to press down to drive the hook home into the ring. This would make for much easier hands free operation.
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ptpp
Nov 2, 2007, 4:15 AM
Post #121 of 128
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Registered: Nov 1, 2007
Posts: 38
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Still using it, still loving it! The homemade cuffs I bought on the summit of El Cap have long since disintegrated, but I still use the original Trango ones, crappy though they are.
My aid-trees are dying - I picked up a pair of Fish aid-trees and they rock.
I now use two aid-trees hanging from each lead carabiner - one of Fish's, and one old Trango. Hugely easier than trying to get both hooks onto a single tree. Thanks to Brutus for the suggestion!
These things work best when the rock is steep, because you get the knee-ankle camming action like you get with a pair of ski boots on downhill skis.
They are not so great for C1 because the damn rings get stuck in the crack.
For extreme "hero loop" top stepping, they don't work - the top loops are only equivalent to about the second step of your regular aiders. So for low-angle faces where you have to stand in your REAL topsteps, you will need to stick a sling in the piece and put your foot in it.
Note that you can get extra height by putting the hook on your shin right into the placement.
I like Karl's idea of the "up elevator" with adjustable daisies, by putting the hook into the ring on the end as you stand up. Gets you a step and a half almost for free with 2:1 mechanical advantage.
Someone needs to make the cuffs. Mine are dying - anybody know where I can buy a backup pair?
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moof
Nov 5, 2007, 9:30 PM
Post #122 of 128
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Posts: 400
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ptpp wrote: Still using it, still loving it! The homemade cuffs I bought on the summit of El Cap have long since disintegrated, but I still use the original Trango ones, crappy though they are. My aid-trees are dying - I picked up a pair of Fish aid-trees and they rock. I now use two aid-trees hanging from each lead carabiner - one of Fish's, and one old Trango. Hugely easier than trying to get both hooks onto a single tree. Thanks to Brutus for the suggestion! These things work best when the rock is steep, because you get the knee-ankle camming action like you get with a pair of ski boots on downhill skis. They are not so great for C1 because the damn rings get stuck in the crack. For extreme "hero loop" top stepping, they don't work - the top loops are only equivalent to about the second step of your regular aiders. So for low-angle faces where you have to stand in your REAL topsteps, you will need to stick a sling in the piece and put your foot in it. Note that you can get extra height by putting the hook on your shin right into the placement. I like Karl's idea of the "up elevator" with adjustable daisies, by putting the hook into the ring on the end as you stand up. Gets you a step and a half almost for free with 2:1 mechanical advantage. Someone needs to make the cuffs. Mine are dying - anybody know where I can buy a backup pair?
Pete,
I've made myself a about 3 versions based on the "Kung-Fu Russian Aider's" starting point. Basically a stirrup with a cinch strap connected to a knee cuff with a dog-vine of spectra. My biggest problem is the hook (big suprise...). I'm using the Home Despot special, and it is not as nice as what Kung-Fu dude found at his local Home Despot. My knee cuffs have nice aluminum cinch buckles that are burly, yet easy to adjust and remove.
If all you need is the soft goods part replicated in fresh webbing, I could probably help you out. I'd either need good drawings, or preferably the rotting remains. I have a burly industrial sewing machine, and use good #92 thread for burly seams.
I'm sure Russ wouldn't mind doing some custom work either (for enough beers). Russ also has a bar tacker, where as I have to be slighly more creative for the same effect.
Before Russ started officially doing aid trees, he did a custom pair for a feller on here (I think it is linked in the kung-fu thread, where ever that went). They had two strings of single rings coming down. Less bulky on the lead biner than putting two trees per biner, but with the full benefits of two trees. I'm sure bribes work on him.
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jc5462
Nov 25, 2007, 8:08 AM
Post #123 of 128
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Registered: May 25, 2004
Posts: 64
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It has been a while for me, but I will start looking into this. I will go get my Trango RA's out of storage and look at them. I need to actually look at the hook, as I might have an idea for them. BTW. I have not seen or heard much from USHBA (jim Bowes) in a while so I am not sure if he is bringing in product from Russia anymore. It was all good stuff and I have a lot of it. Again No Promise, but I will look into it. Has anyone talked or heard from Josh at PIKA? Ed Leeper? John Yates?
Jim Cormier
Cormier Mountaineering
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fenderfour
Nov 25, 2007, 6:46 PM
Post #124 of 128
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Registered: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 177
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I had a few e-mail exchanges with Jim Bowes when I first looked into the RA system. This was a couple of years ago. He said that he was selling the company and wouldn't be involved in bringing the gear over from Russia. He did not say anything about the new owners and their plans.
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holdplease2
Dec 6, 2007, 6:07 AM
Post #125 of 128
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Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 1733
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Hey All:
Just wanted to let you know that Pete wrote an excellent illustrated article on Russian Aiders and their Pros and Cons over at http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=495312
There is some good Q&A happening over there.
There is a set of Russian Aiders for sale on Ebay for anyone who is interested.
-Kate.
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