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moabbeth
Apr 15, 2004, 12:30 AM
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I have nothing to say, again.
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frantik
Apr 15, 2004, 12:33 AM
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Lets look at the stats.
Driving is one of the most dangerous things we do.
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fargoan
Apr 15, 2004, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: Lets look at the stats. Driving is one of the most dangerous things we do.
which stats? :?
if you had to climb to and from work everyday, or send a boulder problem on the way to the grocery store, there'd be a whole lot more climbing accidents.
numerically, i agree with you that there are far more driving accidents, but per person driving, per drive, there must be fewer accidents than in climbing. (admittedly, without having numbers in front of me, but i can't see how it could be otherwise...)
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philbox
Moderator
Apr 15, 2004, 1:37 AM
Post #79 of 140
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The one issue I have over some of the criticisms of Amber in this thread and her TR thread is that some people are down on her for making a mistake. Mistakes are a great learning tool. What was that saying "What doesn`t kill us makes us stronger".
I hear in some of the criticism that she should not have made a mistake and that mistakes are bad. Yeah, in part I agree, the thing is she didn`t die so this will make her stronger. I`ve made heaps of mistakes but the thing is that I welcome the lessons that those mistakes teach me. If you are afraid of making a mistake you will not learn anything. I`ve taken climbing partners out and they stand at the bottom of a climb and want to achieve success in their mind first before actually getting on the climb and experiencing success. Just climb the damn thing, I say to them. They thank me afterwards.
Nope, I`m not judging Amber because I see a lot of me in Amber and none of you should judge Amber either because we have all been there to a lesser degree (lesser because she came about as close to death as any person could have). We all make mistakes, go make some and learn.
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bobd1953
Apr 15, 2004, 2:25 AM
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In reply to: Amber's risk of death on MB was pretty small. (Much smaller than the risk that the most competant climber assumes when attempting a climb like K2 or the risk Hillary assumed on Everest.)
Dude, it does matter if you die on Everest, K2 or your local crag, you are dead, no more. Amber risk was even higher due to her skill level.
Amber, enjoy your climbing time, don't feel like you have prove anything to anyone and most of all enjoy your time with your child, it's way more fulfilling than any big wall or rock climb.
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lambone
Apr 15, 2004, 2:39 AM
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rappeling is the sketchiest part of the whole climbing game no doubt. even sketchier then some jingus choss A4 lead with no rope or whatever.
At the point when you are rappeling your done with the climb, this changes your mindset, your thinking of beer and a burger, your ready to be at home with the family. This is what makes rappeling so sketchy.
I've almost blown it rappelling before, more than once. I consider myself lucky that I didn't. Therefore I can judge no-one who's had a rappeling accident. I can only judge the accident itself. From what I have read about Ambers incident, I can't even really figure out what happened.
Theres lots of people who shouldn't be up on Big Walls and Big Mountains...all around the world. Yet everyone has to have their first wall or first big peak. Hopefully they live through it.
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jv
Apr 15, 2004, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: The one issue I have over some of the criticisms of Amber in this thread and her TR thread is that some people are down on her for making a mistake. Mistakes are a great learning tool. What was that saying "What doesn`t kill us makes us stronger". I hear in some of the criticism that she should not have made a mistake and that mistakes are bad. Yeah, in part I agree, the thing is she didn`t die so this will make her stronger. I`ve made heaps of mistakes but the thing is that I welcome the lessons that those mistakes teach me. If you are afraid of making a mistake you will not learn anything. I`ve taken climbing partners out and they stand at the bottom of a climb and want to achieve success in their mind first before actually getting on the climb and experiencing success. Just climb the damn thing, I say to them. They thank me afterwards.
I never weighed in because I wasn't there. I agree that mistakes are par for the course, and often give us important, lasting lessons. But it occurs to me as I read your comments that rapping off the end of a rope (if that is what happened) is a mistake you never want to make because it is usually fatal. So while you may learn something during the plunge, odds are you'll never get to put it into practice.
JV
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climbsomething
Apr 15, 2004, 3:11 AM
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edit: Hillary means no harm :)
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karlbaba
Apr 15, 2004, 3:28 AM
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Climbing is dangerous, but addiction to nicotine is more likely to kill you.
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nthusiastj
Apr 15, 2004, 3:42 AM
Post #86 of 140
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I don't judge.
It is what it is.
You are what you are.
There are no mistakes.
That said, I thank Amber for sharing her story. You learn from fucking up. If you learn from someone else's then even better.
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moabbeth
Apr 15, 2004, 3:47 AM
Post #87 of 140
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nothing to say here.
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maculated
Apr 15, 2004, 3:50 AM
Post #88 of 140
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Woah kids, you're starting to venture into accusatory territory. Chill, please.
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climbsomething
Apr 15, 2004, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: (and I've seen you eat :wink: )
shomebuddy pash the shoy sauce
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philbox
Moderator
Apr 15, 2004, 4:02 AM
Post #90 of 140
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In reply to: In reply to: The one issue I have over some of the criticisms of Amber in this thread and her TR thread is that some people are down on her for making a mistake. Mistakes are a great learning tool. What was that saying "What doesn`t kill us makes us stronger". I hear in some of the criticism that she should not have made a mistake and that mistakes are bad. Yeah, in part I agree, the thing is she didn`t die so this will make her stronger. I`ve made heaps of mistakes but the thing is that I welcome the lessons that those mistakes teach me. If you are afraid of making a mistake you will not learn anything. I`ve taken climbing partners out and they stand at the bottom of a climb and want to achieve success in their mind first before actually getting on the climb and experiencing success. Just climb the damn thing, I say to them. They thank me afterwards. I never weighed in because I wasn't there. I agree that mistakes are par for the course, and often give us important, lasting lessons. But it occurs to me as I read your comments that rapping off the end of a rope (if that is what happened) is a mistake you never want to make because it is usually fatal. So while you may learn something during the plunge, odds are you'll never get to put it into practice. JV
Ahhh but here is the kicker, Amber made a mistake that would normally be fatal and she is around to tell us about it. It is up to us to hear and learn the lessons from that mistake.
Kudos goes to Amber for being willing to step up to the plate and take the criticism on the chin that she knew would be levelled at her. It takes a brave soul indeed to be willing to bare ones mistakes to the world, particularly such a huge monumental series of blunders such as hers. Big thanks to Tim for his continued support of Amber as well and for chiming in with more details as the course of the conversation warrants.
Thanks for the honesty guys. These threads are a hugely enlightening resource for all climbers to learn from even the ones who don`t want to admit it.
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jv
Apr 15, 2004, 4:10 AM
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In reply to: Ahhh but here is the kicker, Amber made a mistake that would normally be fatal and she is around to tell us about it. It is up to us to hear and learn the lessons from that mistake. Kudos goes to Amber for being willing to step up to the plate and take the criticism on the chin that she knew would be levelled at her. It takes a brave soul indeed to be willing to bare ones mistakes to the world, particularly such a huge monumental series of blunders such as hers. Big thanks to Tim for his continued support of Amber as well and for chiming in with more details as the course of the conversation warrants. Thanks for the honesty guys. These threads are a hugely enlightening resource for all climbers to learn from even the ones who don`t want to admit it.
No argument there.
JV
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justsendingits
Apr 15, 2004, 9:55 AM
Post #92 of 140
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In reply to: Climbing is dangerous, but addiction to nicotine is more likely to kill you.
Karl nails it again!!
Climbers are a novelty at parties in the Midwest.
One of my favorite ironies is listening to a guy at a party tell me how crazy I am for sleeping on a portaledge as he takes a deep toke off of his cancer spleef.
Drive fast take chances!!!!!
.
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yay_chris
Apr 15, 2004, 1:52 PM
Post #93 of 140
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I think more people should Prusik their rappels. This is a perfect example of why the knot is invaluable.
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ctgunkie
Apr 15, 2004, 2:34 PM
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Amber,
Thanks for sharing. This is extremely helpful for all of us and it will save lives in ways you haven't imagined. I had a similar experience with a friend of mine. He rapped off the end of my rope - only about 10-15 feet but onto a ledge 150 feet up. Fortunately he did not roll off the ledge or hurt his back, but he did have sore feet for a while. He said, "It was a moment of stupidity, but a lifetime worth of luck." There were many reasons for this which built up quickly over a short period of time. As his partner for the day I of course share a lot of the potential responsibility.
I'm with Dingus, ambition is not the problem. If it weren't for ambition, The Nose would never have been climbed, we wouldn't have gone to moon (not sure what the relevance is?) not to mention countless other achievements. After this experience, I'm sure you've grown tremendously as a climber and will have rope management dialled from now on! Not that my wife would let me, but I would climb with you anytime. :lol:
I'm sure I'll mangle this, but some of the classical philosophers dealt with the same questions. How important is life? Are there things more important than life itself? That we sacrifice ourselves to something more than mere existence is a sign of our humanity and our souls. So you are in good company.
Dana
PS. I'm with Karl - smoking and cars are much worse. I've been climbing for 25 years and don't know anyone personally who has had a real problem, but have had several friends die from car accidents - two of them from drunk drivers.
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calamity_chk
Apr 15, 2004, 3:21 PM
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Dana, Thanks for the response. I've been taking the good with the bad and weighing all of it.
Also, I dont particularly mind being a subject of speculation regarding the decisions that I made in regards to the accident - I'm the one who opened Pandora's Box by posting an account of what happened, and when I did this, I realized that I would receive some harsh criticism along with a few "I told you so's" - and that's fine, I deserve them. I posted because I want other beginning and early-intermediate climbers to learn from my mistakes. Judging from the PMs I've received, this goal is being acheived through the critical analysis of risk assessment and general readiness for upping the ante. While I cant say that it's particularly comfortable to be under the microscope, I can say that it's worthwhile if people are actually learning from it (as opposed to simply indulging in an egostroking blamefest).
However, attempts at accusing me of various personal issues and shortcomings are tres uncool. If people have a legitimite concern that I have an eating disorder simply because I'm thin, then they should contact me privately to discuss those concerns, rather than blasting accusations on the WWW. I will admit that my dietary habits arent the best in the world, but I dont have an eating disorder. Thanks for the concern, but I have a thin frame and have always had a difficult time putting on weight. Further, my personal life has been filled with incredible stress over the past 18 months, and my medical history shows that when I encounter high stress levels, my metabolism shoots up and I lose weight. My doctor has confirmed the theory. Yep, that's right folks, I've been to the doctor about it - I went to the doctor when I suddenly started losing weight for no apparent reason. Though, I was more concerned about cancer or some other weird ailment than having an eating disorder. Perhaps if someone had asked me about my weight loss instead talking about me in whispers and posting accusations on the web, you would have known this. I was a scrawny kid with a sweet tooth that you wouldnt believe, and am now a thin adult with mild hyperinsulinism.
Anyways, feel free to carry on with the analysis of my mistakes in climbing, but have some respect and leave personal accusations out of it.
Thanks,
amber
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lifesshort
Apr 15, 2004, 5:17 PM
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I'm a nOOB but I feel like have to say something. Actually not a nOOb, just a part part time climber. Its in my heart but not in my blood. I've been climbing about 10 yrs and have done a good amount of sport stuff, some decent trad climbing, a little aid practicing, and one failed attempt at tangerine trip on el cap. I have taken long hiatus's from climbing and keep coming back. I have participated in many other high risk activities such as mountain biking, skiing, and driving a car.
On the subject of driving a car, on valentines day night, I was heading home on the highway and a SUV 'flew' over the guardrail from the access road and nosedived into the highway 100m in front of my vehicle with me driving 65mph. It bounced and rolled a few times and came to rest and I swerved and mostly avoided it. A car behind me plowed into it (he was unhurt) and drove over the driver of the SUV. The SUV's passenger was also killed. I had my seatbelt on, was driving close to the speed limit, and was paying attention to the road (ie not talking on a cel phone) and made it through unscathed.
The point is: you never know whats going to happen and most of the time its not your fault, however in everything you do, the risks can be minimalized by paying attention, learning, and following the lessons/rules/procedures of those that have come before you.
This could mean wearing your seatbelt, tying knots in the ends of your ropes, or learning to crawl before you try to walk.
That statement is not meant as an inditement of amber but more of a blanket statement to all of us. I am good friends with justsendingit and have watched his climbing career from the start. He is single, care free, adrenaline junkie and takes big risks but learns as well and tries to be smart. When he takes these risk, he knows there risks and takes them knowing who he's responsible to, HIMSELF. I've seen him do silly things and look back later and say "boy that was dumb I'll never do it again".
Point, oh yeah, I should get to the point. Its that when you get out of bed, you could slip and fall. When you drive, an SUV could fall from the sky. When you climb, a tried and true fixed anchor could fail.
Climbing has risks but like everything else, those risks can be minimalized by how many variables you leave to chance.
Everything you do has risks and each of us as individuals has to decide what risks we want to take and wether we feel they are worth the possible consequences to us, our loved ones and others. No one else can/should decide for you.
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bobd1953
Apr 15, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: I'm sure I'll mangle this, but some of the classical philosophers dealt with the same questions. How important is life? Are there things more important than life itself? That we sacrifice ourselves to something more than mere existence is a sign of our humanity and our souls. So you are in good company.
I think you are a little mixed-up. Classic philosphers were not talking about climbing as one of the things worth life itself.
Amber has something bigger to sacrifice for...her son, not climbing!
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mother_sheep
Apr 15, 2004, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: Dana, Thanks for the response. I've been taking the good with the bad and weighing all of it. Also, I dont particularly mind being a subject of speculation regarding the decisions that I made in regards to the accident - I'm the one who opened Pandora's Box by posting an account of what happened, and when I did this, I realized that I would receive some harsh criticism along with a few "I told you so's" - and that's fine, I deserve them. I posted because I want other beginning and early-intermediate climbers to learn from my mistakes. Judging from the PMs I've received, this goal is being acheived through the critical analysis of risk assessment and general readiness for upping the ante. While I cant say that it's particularly comfortable to be under the microscope, I can say that it's worthwhile if people are actually learning from it (as opposed to simply indulging in an egostroking blamefest). However, attempts at accusing me of various personal issues and shortcomings are tres uncool. If people have a legitimite concern that I have an eating disorder simply because I'm thin, then they should contact me privately to discuss those concerns, rather than blasting accusations on the WWW. I will admit that my dietary habits arent the best in the world, but I dont have an eating disorder. Thanks for the concern, but I have a thin frame and have always had a difficult time putting on weight. Further, my personal life has been filled with incredible stress over the past 18 months, and my medical history shows that when I encounter high stress levels, my metabolism shoots up and I lose weight. My doctor has confirmed the theory. Yep, that's right folks, I've been to the doctor about it - I went to the doctor when I suddenly started losing weight for no apparent reason. Though, I was more concerned about cancer or some other weird ailment than having an eating disorder. Perhaps if someone had asked me about my weight loss instead talking about me in whispers and posting accusations on the web, you would have known this. I was a scrawny kid with a sweet tooth that you wouldnt believe, and am now a thin adult with mild hyperinsulinism. Anyways, feel free to carry on with the analysis of my mistakes in climbing, but have some respect and leave personal accusations out of it. Thanks, amber
And to back this up even more, not that she needs it, I've seen this woman eat. And trust me, it's impressive! I think the only time she didn't eat more than me was during our 1:00 am pit stop to Subway on the way to RR. At that point I was soooo tired that I was only eating to stay awake.
Just because someone is thin, it does not necessarily mean that they have an eating disorder. It is possible for women to eat like pigs and still remain thin.
And further, I'm not so certain that the individual making these B.S. claims is in any position to be offering up an opinion, especially since he/she was never sober the entire time they were in Amber's presence. So drop it! Posts like yours are not a cool way to draw attention to yourself!
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tim
Apr 15, 2004, 5:51 PM
Post #99 of 140
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In reply to: I think more people should Prusik their rappels. This is a perfect example of why the knot is invaluable.
Use an autoblock, it is less likely to get twisted. Seriously. I've tried prusiks, klemheists (I can tie a klemheist in my sleep, with frozen fingers, and ascend on them for that matter), and autoblocks, and the autoblock is faster and more foolproof than the others IMHO.
Also, if you're used to extending your rappel, it is not hard at all to make the jump to setting an assisted rappel. Which is a really good thing to know if your partner ever gets really fucked up. It requires an extra sling but makes the system a lot more manageable.
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