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ricardol
Apr 22, 2004, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: I think its time for a prozac refill for some of you ..... copperhead any FA that sets up a "belay" with 2 bolts so far apart that you need to hook your way between them is a total idiot and deserves to have his route changed. Yosemite is not "The great big wall wilderness" anymore .... its disneyland in the sky. If you want adventure and real fear, go to Baffin Island ....
there are so many drama queens on this thread ..
-- ricardo
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lambone
Apr 22, 2004, 4:29 PM
Post #27 of 41
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In reply to: The bolt that Lambone is hanging from appears to be a Euro? hammer-in funkmo-jivermaroler bolt… typical. - American Chopper ......vroom, vroom!!
Yeah, totally, it almost looked like a Baby Angle driven into a hole. Kinda funky.
The Trip is definately not a route to do if you are against retro-bolting. However it is a good route for newbie trade route climbers because the aid is mostly easy and it is largely a clip-up sport aid route. I would have liked to witness whoever retroed that route hand drill those hundreds of 3/8" lead bolts...hehe yeah right :roll: lame.
Still a cool climb in my opinion though, if you want something harder and less tame, then there are definately plenty of options on El Cap.
Yall like my man-boobs in that shot?
BTW- we didn't place or remove any bolts on this route...I suppose maybe we should have taken some cleaning and patching gear, but we were just focused on getting up the thing...
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calamity_chk
Apr 22, 2004, 4:34 PM
Post #28 of 41
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you know, it would be way rad if this site could host an ethical debate - just once - that doesnt turn into a name-calling flamefest. not too terribly long ago, brutus and madmax set an excellent precedent on how to disagree with maturity and respect. (http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56511&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=45 )
there are two very passionate schools of thought about bolting, and both sides have fairly intelligent and articulate people. perhaps these people could have a public discussion about the matter without getting personal so that those of us who are still developing thoughts and opinions about the matter can glean something from both sides of the story. well, something more profound than "wow, that person's an ass."
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justsendingits
Apr 22, 2004, 5:27 PM
Post #29 of 41
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In reply to: In reply to: Brian, I try to learn from my mistakes also, maybe if I get on T-trip again I will chop some of those belay's with too many bolts. I think I saw 7 bolts at a belay on Zodiac!! A bit much!!! . ... talk about creative reporting .. none of the belays on zodiac had more than 5 bolts ... most had 3 .. -- ricardo
The key words here were, "I think"
It was alsmost 3 years ago when I did the route.
I thought I saw 7 bolts at a belay, guess i was wrong.
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chronicle
Apr 22, 2004, 6:20 PM
Post #30 of 41
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Copperhead - That was the longest reply I've ever read through. usually I would skip past those, but you spoke with so much passion, I was addicted.
In reply to: you know, it would be way rad if this site could host an ethical debate - just once - that doesnt turn into a name-calling flamefest.
Amber - It would be nice. But I think those days are long gone. One reason I don't post ethical comments on this site.
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mikeehartley
Apr 23, 2004, 2:19 AM
Post #31 of 41
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Life is not black and white. While adding bolts to a belay may often be lame and at times change the character of the route (as I guess Sea of Dreams has changed - I've never climbed it) there may be good reason at times to do so. Zodiac was put up solo in the days before most people were packing portaledges. What's a reasonable belay for someone solo in a hammock may be a total pain in the ass for 2 or 3 climbers and ledges. Hell I don't know but I seriously doubt that Porter was thinking about anything but getting up the route in the most efficient way and having a great adventure - not about making a reasonable belay for multiple people or the fact that it one day may see over 30 ascents in one month.
Also on a big FA there is always so much work and drilling anyhow who's going to go out of their way to add bolts to a belay when they just drilled maybe 20 or so by hand for fun earlier? Tired and whipped you just may do the easiest thing at the time and collapse even though you'd like an extra bolt or two.
The answers aren't always simple. Not all change is a totally bad thing.
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copperhead
Apr 23, 2004, 9:19 PM
Post #32 of 41
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In reply to: "Slater was shocked when he tested the first rivet and it pulled out of the rock. Rob held onto the pulled rivet to place next to rivets up higher andto see just how far they were drilled into the rock. Some machine heads were only in three threads!" So if any manky/missing rivets are replaced on WSR - only 3 threads deep - right?
You should see the rivets that I pulled out of the beginning of the 6th pitch of Zenyatta… yup, about three threads and mushroomed because they are fine-thread machine bolts. I believe that there are/were at least three different types of rivets on the route… experimentation…
No, they shouldn’t be replaced with the exact same thing, they should be replaced with something comparable, but that also fits our needs – replace-ability, longevity, and function, etc… A 1/4” x 1 1/2” Rawl button head with two small washers fits the description, not another machine head, nor a 3/8” bolt.
In reply to: Respect the route..... What about progress? Isn't progress good for everyone?
Progress? Adding bolts is more like regression. Shouldn’t we strive to climb with as few bolts as possible, especially as our gear technology advances? That is progress. Retro bolting the piss out of a route so that everyone can enjoy it is not progress.
In reply to: I think its time for a prozac refill for some of you ..... copperhead
Thanks, but I’ll have a beer instead… though I’m still working on my Dr. Pepper at the moment…
In reply to: any FA that sets up a "belay" with 2 bolts so far apart that you need to hook your way between them is a total idiot and deserves to have his route changed. Yosemite is not "The great big wall wilderness" anymore .... its disneyland in the sky. If you want adventure and real fear, go to Baffin Island ....
Well, I guess that total idiot would be me then… and on more than one route. Why do I deserve to have my routes changed? You know, I would probably take personal offense to that but, given your attitude, the chances of you even seeing those belays are pretty slim. So, I’m not too worried.
Yes, I would agree that the Valley floor is Disneyland but I wasn’t aware that wall climbs had now been included. No more adventure and real fear in Yosemite, eh? I’ll keep that in mind (while I’m wearing a T-shirt…).
No, life is not all black and white, nor are all decisions concerning replacement, removal, or addition of bolts. Nothing is simple, so might as well discuss things, right?
One thing that I forgot to mention earlier is that when original bolts, as well as chicken bolts are replaced, it makes it difficult for someone to come along latter and figure out what was original and what wasn’t. If chicken bolts are removed when the original bolts are replaced, then there isn’t much question as to whether the hole is original or not.
I could go an all day but have lots to do. Maybe it’s best to continue this discussion over a few beers.
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copperhead
Apr 23, 2004, 9:31 PM
Post #33 of 41
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Well, being Copperhead’s last post (with no better place to post it than on a bolting thread (and especially a holy one...)), I thought I’d leave you with some Iron Maiden lyrics. (Yes, Maiden rules the underworld.)
Climb smart.
Respect your fellow climbers and the rock.
HAVE FUN!!!!!!!
Yeeeeeehaw!!! I’m outta here!!! It’s been fun.
See you in the real world!
"Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short…
Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty six." - Revelations...
I left alone, my mind was blank,
I needed time to think to get the memories from my mind.
What did I see, can I believe that what I saw
That night was real and not just fantasy.
Just what I saw, in my own dreams, were they
Reflections of my warped mind staring back at me?
'Cos in my dreams, it’s always there, the evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.
The night was black, was no use holding back,
'Cos I just had to see was someone watching me?
In the mist dark figures move and twist,
Was this all for real or some kind of hell?
666, the number of the beast,
Hell and fire were spawned to be released.
Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised,
As they start to cry, hands held to the sky.
In the night, the fires are burning bright,
The ritual has begun, Satan’s work is done.
666, the number of the beast,
Sacrifice is going on tonight.
This can’t go on, I must inform the law,
Can this still be real or some crazy dream?
But I feel drawn toward the evil chanting hordes,
They seem to mesmerize me… can’t avoid their eyes.
666, the number of the beast,
666, the one for you and me.
I’m coming back, I will return,
And I’ll possess your body and make you burn.
I have the fire, I have the force,
I have the power to make my evil take its course.
Iron Maiden
The Number of the Beast
1982
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ricardol
Apr 23, 2004, 10:26 PM
Post #34 of 41
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Brian, I try to learn from my mistakes also, maybe if I get on T-trip again I will chop some of those belay's with too many bolts. I think I saw 7 bolts at a belay on Zodiac!! A bit much!!! . ... talk about creative reporting .. none of the belays on zodiac had more than 5 bolts ... most had 3 .. -- ricardo The key words here were, "I think" It was alsmost 3 years ago when I did the route. I thought I saw 7 bolts at a belay, guess i was wrong.
.. you are probably corect then ..
i saw ALOT of chopped bolts along the way (and in belays) .. so there probably was abelay with 7 bolts .. that has been chopped and tamed ...
-- ricardo
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dredsovrn
Apr 23, 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Got Bolts?
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ricardol
Apr 25, 2004, 3:43 AM
Post #36 of 41
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In reply to: "Zodiac was put up solo..." Not so, mike. Even if it were it doesn't justify someone altering an existing route to suit his convenience. .
umm -- zodiac FA was a 7 day ascent by porter ... solo .. its well known
-- ricardo
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ricardol
Apr 26, 2004, 8:19 PM
Post #37 of 41
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In reply to: Speak for yourself ricardo. Some people are just plain wrong...
are you saying that the FA of zodiac was not a solo ascent by porter ..
.. do tell us who his partner was..
-- ricardo
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lambone
Apr 26, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #38 of 41
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Yeah pmyche, what gives?
And if that is the case you may want to bring it up with the Supertopo editors...'cause that'd be one big glaring mistake in an otherwise kick ass collection of Big wall history...
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ricardol
Apr 27, 2004, 12:47 AM
Post #39 of 41
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In reply to: I'm not saying that, riccardol. = ] Ya think I don't know my history on Tangerine Trip?
.. alkright -- now i know you've been laying into the hooch prior to logging on to rc.com ..
... pmyche -- what the heck are you saying? ---
-- ricardo
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sd
Apr 27, 2004, 12:47 AM
Post #40 of 41
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Was expecting someone offering to sell/buy some bolts which had been blessed. I'm disappointed :(
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brutusofwyde
May 1, 2004, 12:55 AM
Post #41 of 41
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In reply to: On FAs and routes that have not been done too many times, no. But in the case of trade routes, there are unfortunately an exorbitant amount of bolts. 5 bolts at a belay is ridiculous, no matter what route we are talking about. Because chicken sh1ts and those in favor of convenience decide that they need to add a bolt to the belay, even if they have no clue about appropriate bolting hardware and respect for the route. The bolt that Lambone is hanging from appears to be a Euro? hammer-in funkmo-jivermaroler bolt… typical. In reply to: Part of that reason was because not all of them were ideal. In other words, in the past there was probably just 3 bolts (with 2 of them not being so great) so eventually someone added 2 more good bolts to make the belay very safe. And there lies the very heart of the problem.
When you do a second or third ascent, do you typically take rebolting gear to replace not only quarter-inch land mines but also non-stainless 3/8" bolts showing significant galvanic corrosion? Just curious. My big wall tools for rebolting are, at most, a crow bar and a tuning fork, plus bolting gear. Not too effective for some of the 3/8" contraptions out there that I wouldn't want to test with 3 haul bags and three beefy people.
I've added bolts in my time. No, it's not right, but without the tools to remove the old hardware, it may be your only sane choice. And 6 days up, options are limited.
Brutus, still low on the learning curve, added a bolt to a belay on Muir Wall that already had seven. Seven pieces of cr@p. That was before I started carrying a tuning fork.
--edited to add my initials in lower case to my post, just for copperhead's entertainment...
bbb
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