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joemor
May 15, 2004, 10:37 AM
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http://www.australianbouldering.com/news.html#gramps52
info here and www.8a.nu
"Another brilliant achievement from Dai Koyamada!
He sent the tunnel to tunnel Hollow Mt. Project and gave it 8C+/V16. This problem is the 2nd in the World to get this grade, the first being Mauro Calibani's Tonino 78.
The new problem, which has yet to be named, is more than 60 moves long, and now Dai can truly call himself "King of the cave". Stay posted for more!
Dai now has 11750 points, a number no one else has been even remotely close to. If he, with the form he's in now, was to go route climbing, he could very well rival Patxi for the #1 position. Remember, Dai has climbed 9a's before, and his never been stronger..." 8a quote...
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wyattearp
May 15, 2004, 10:45 AM
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Is this the Hollow mountain Link up
If it is I believe the while link up is
a V10 into a v12/13 into Ever Reve V14
I think right? I believe it ends on dead Cant dance A v12 in itself, that project is insane! I mean that x-project!
Look at his tick list so far.....
Dai Koyamada is ripping it up in the cave. He and a couple of friends have come for a 50 day trip with the aim to complete the whole cave link up. Dai has been able to confirm the grades of the harder problems around the Grampians, ensuring that we really are in line with the rest of the world. Dai has systematically been ticking off 12s in a day, then going back a second day to do link ups. He has chosen to do the easier Cave Girl instead of Cave Man for all link ups.
Dai's tick list to date
Sleepy Hollow + Cave Girl + Dead Can't Dance = Yet to come V15 (three days)
Pretty Hate Machine with Eve Reve finish V14/15
Pretty Hate Machine V14
Xtreme cool + The Amazing Sounds of A She-Male Squeeling V14
Eve Reve V14
Under Seige V14
Cave Rave V13/14
Forced Entry Extension V13/14
Forced Entry V13
Forced Enrty Direct
Sleepy Hollow + Cave Girl = Sleepy Man V13
Ammagamma V13
Lost For Life V12
+ Others including a new V11 to the left of Hot Henry at Loopys
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dynamicpanda
May 15, 2004, 2:37 PM
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Yea, Koyomada is definately one of the best in the world. Not just at bouldering either. This guy has been pulling on sick shit in all forms of rock climbing. Just read his golden piton award article in climbing magazine.
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brianthew
May 15, 2004, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: Just read his golden piton award article in climbing magazine.
Perhaps you confuse him with his countryman, Yuji Hirayama?
Golden Piton or not, Dai is an extremely strong climber that hasn't gotten too much press at all until recently.
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coclimber26
May 15, 2004, 2:55 PM
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Is there any photos of the problem?
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badass
May 15, 2004, 3:20 PM
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That is all complete bullshit. Sixty moves long. That seems more like a route than a problem. If you can do sixty moves of that shit it ain't V16. Remember Banshousha a so called V15 slab. I don't think so. You aren't climbing V16 until you've sent at least 20 to 25 V15's which he has yet to do. At best this problem is one of those V15's that'll never get a second ascent because it is too long and it sucks!
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deafears
May 15, 2004, 3:51 PM
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Dai is legitimately one of the best in the world, and a humble, soft-spoken guy who never shoots his mouth off ... detractors who have climbed a couple of .13as and a V11 would be wise to tone down the vitriolic attacks, lest Dai shows up in the southeast and proceeds to hike y'alls projects.
Seriously, dude you should take it easy on the spraying, that sh-- always comes back around.
Sure, a 60-move problem is basically a route, but do you doubt the thing is hard? And as for quality, if Klem Loskot, Fred Nicole and all the Aussies say that Sleepy Hollow is high quality, who are you, really, to call false on his achievement?
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dynamicpanda
May 15, 2004, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Just read his golden piton award article in climbing magazine. Perhaps you confuse him with his countryman, Yuji Hirayama? Golden Piton or not, Dai is an extremely strong climber that hasn't gotten too much press at all until recently.
Thanks for catching me there man. I got the two confused.
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badass
May 15, 2004, 4:34 PM
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That's bs. Sleepy Hollow is quality compared to the choss surrounding it. I've got a 30 plus move problem. It's called Caveman Games. I modestly call it V11 but it'll probably not see a second ascent for 5 years so why don't I just overblow it and call it V15 or something. It sure is more quality than some of the crap on that guys ticklist. I'm not going to fluff it up because if I do someone will go after it just for the grade and when they send will realize that it isn't really V15. Just wait, the true grade of that problem will realize itself in time.
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bustloose
May 15, 2004, 5:33 PM
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oh shit dude, you had better be trolling... otherwise you are easily one of the dumbest people i have ever seen on here...
this is not some new V16 out in the middle of nowhere, it is a sick link up of ESTABLISHED problems... by folk smarter and stronger than you. You know why it won't get a repeat for 5 years? because it's hard, not because no one tries it. get a clue, those problems have been attempted by some of the best climbers out there, and have passed off the full link up as too hard.
Dai is the real deal, perhaps you want to look at his ticklist in the last couple of years?
whether you have clmbed '20 V15's' or not, if you link those grades together, you get AT LEAST V16.
i hate couch potate's like you who only see fit to downplay other's accomplishments. Care to go and downgrade Flex Luthor? didn't think so.
do everyone here a favour and just go away.
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wyattearp
May 15, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: That is all complete s---. Sixty moves long. That seems more like a route than a problem. If you can do sixty moves of that s--- it ain't V16. Remember Banshousha a so called V15 slab. I don't think so. You aren't climbing V16 until you've sent at least 20 to 25 V15's which he has yet to do. At best this problem is one of those V15's that'll never get a second ascent because it is too long and it sucks!
Yeah dude you are a dumbas$,, if you ever get the chance watch, Eos @ dreatime, they show the entire problem and all of its links, Fred Nicole could not do it and yes he projected it at V16! badas$, you should change your handle to dumbas$, your post is pretty ignorant, maybe you should research this project a little more throughly before you start a flame war!
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curt
May 15, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: Sure, a 60-move problem is basically a route, but do you doubt the thing is hard? And as for quality, if Klem Loskot, Fred Nicole and all the Aussies say that Sleepy Hollow is high quality, who are you, really, to call false on his achievement?
The legitimate point is that these long "link-up" projects should not be given "V" grades. The main reason that different rating systems (including the "V" system) were created for bouldering was because the rating systems for long routes (Yosemite Decimal System and others) did not seem applicable to shorter intense boulder type routes--where endurance was not really the issue.
However a 60 move problem is clearly endurance related and not the sort of thing where you have a few hard moves and you're done. The YDS works perfectly well for rating these kind of routes. This does not lessen the achievement in any way, it merely categorizes the feat more accurately.
Curt
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deafears
May 15, 2004, 7:27 PM
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So, call it 5.15 if you like ... although I'd rather leave that decision to the guys who climb at that level. Which certainly isn't any of us.
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curt
May 15, 2004, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: So, call it 5.15 if you like ... although I'd rather leave that decision to the guys who climb at that level. Which certainly isn't any of us.
How hard you climb has nothing to do with trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. I have bouldered for over 20 years with the people who invented the "B" scale, the "V" scale and other bouldering ratings systems. And, I know how they should be properly applied.
Of course, there are other 5.15 routes in the world, but not yet any V16 boulder problems, to my knowledge, so the spray value of the latter is obviously higher, isn't it?
Curt
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wyattearp
May 15, 2004, 7:43 PM
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Curt what about Tonion 78 or whatever in Italy, that was the first v16 Claimed, and it was a 6 move v10 sds into a v14, dai just Did a V10 into a V13, into A v14! And yes it may be 60 moves long, but it is still a boulder problem, and an extremely sustained bopulder problem with all the moves above V10+, so how should he rate it then? If Fred Nicole, Loskot etc.... have all projected the thing to be at least v16, then what gives why do we have to spray against Dai, when none of us will never crank that hard, if anyhting be a little suspicious of the first v16 claimed, i fanything Dai's Link up should the first V16 ever!
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deafears
May 15, 2004, 7:56 PM
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I can appreciate the point that 60-move problems are a little off kilter for the V scale, but what's the guy to do? Unroped "climbs" that don't get more than 10 feet off the deck are even more out of line for a YDS grade.
Whateve scale you apply, Dai's link up is a huge improvement on what Loskot, Nicole, and others have done in Oz, and I'm sure they all will have props for Dai's send.
The B scale, by the way, is a ridiculous and arcane system that never caught on because it is thoroughly useless. Wax on about the golden days if you like (can I get a "Gill was, like, my bro?"), but if you look around you'll see that they are still dawning. It was a glorious morning for bouldering here in the Rockies ... regardless of what number gets associated with which problem.
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curt
May 15, 2004, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: I can appreciate the point that 60-move problems are a little off kilter for the V scale, but what's the guy to do? Unroped "climbs" that don't get more than 10 feet off the deck are even more out of line for a YDS grade.
That comment makes little sense. It is the length of the route that matters, not how far off the ground the moves are, or if a rope is used. People free solo hard rock climbs all the time--but don't then give them V ratings.
In reply to: Whateve scale you apply, Dai's link up is a huge improvement on what Loskot, Nicole, and others have done in Oz, and I'm sure they all will have props for Dai's send.
I thought I made it clear that I agree with this point. My comments are not an attempt to diminish the magnitude of the accomplishment.
In reply to: The B scale, by the way, is a ridiculous and arcane system that never caught on because it is thoroughly useless.
Here your ignorance is really showing. If you are only 16 years old or something, I guess that's understandable. If you are older than that, you should know that the B system of rating boulder problems was universally accepted as the standard for rating boulder problems in this country--at least until the V-scale came along. The B system is pretty useless if you are into pumping up your ego by spraying big numbers, though. That is really its only shortcoming.
In reply to: Wax on about the golden days if you like (can I get a "Gill was, like, my bro?"), but if you look around you'll see that they are still dawning. It was a glorious morning for bouldering here in the Rockies ... regardless of what number gets associated with which problem.
Gill still is my bro. And, I agree with you here. Bouldering should be about more than just attaching some specific number to a piece of rock.
Curt
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socalbolter
May 15, 2004, 8:31 PM
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an amazing accomplishment. congrats to dai!
i would tend to agree that perhaps the problem/climb (?) would be better served and described using a route-style difficulty rating. i would be surprised if this did not become the norm in years to come as longer traverses and link-ups are climbed the world over.
also, as for the "badass" posts: if you thought they were humorous or blatant you should check out his profile. i guess time will tell with this one.
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deafears
May 15, 2004, 8:33 PM
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"Gill still is my bro." I knew this was coming. Sweet.
The B scale, though from the golden days, is useless. Hard, harder, hardest does not a scale make. Gone, and good ridance.
Lastily, to return to the point, Dai's link up of established boulder problems is (drum roll) a quasi-route boulder problem. A horizontal free solo. A upside-down big wall. Whatever. You can grade it however you see fit ... I don't know if Dai, or anyone else, cares what scale is applied, so long as the work he's done gets recognized, which it will.
I think I'll call it new school B4+. I'm not 16 anymore, and I don't try to pretend that climbing hit its high-water mark in 1978. Times change, bro.
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curt
May 15, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: "Gill still is my bro." I knew this was coming. Sweet. The B scale, though from the golden days, is useless. Hard, harder, hardest does not a scale make.
Actually, that is more than adequate, unless of course your purpose is just to spray.
In reply to: I think I'll call it new school B4+. I'm not 16 anymore, and I don't try to pretend that climbing hit its high-water mark in 1978. Times change, bro.
I don't think I ever said that climbing hit its high water mark in 1978, did I? I hardly live in the past and still boulder at a reasonable standard. I am well aware that times do change--but not all change is change for the better--is it? Even Sherman wishes he wouldn't have created the V scale.
Curt
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takeit4granite
May 15, 2004, 9:20 PM
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There are photos of parts of the complete cave problem in the Hollow Mountain Cave section of this site.
Previously the cave had gone as two burly V14 problems put together by some very strong Aussie climbers. The project "King of the Cave" was to link the whole thing together into one massive roof problem.
Having been to the cave and seen the magnitude of this route I don't care what the grade is I am just stoked that someone is strong enough to pull it off!
Anyone wanting to see just how massive and amazing the climbing at Hollow Cave is should drop the 40 bucks on a copy of "EOS II Dreamtime"
It is by far one of the best Bouldering movies I have ever seen. You can get it on-line at www.uncarvedblock.com.au Make sure you ask for the NA format!
Good work Dai!!!!!
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stickclipper
May 16, 2004, 12:07 AM
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In reply to: [ Actually, that is more than adequate, unless of course your purpose is just to spray. Curt
Curt,
I'd have to agree with deafears in thinking Gill's scale to be insufficient. It is unrealistic to think that the great majority of boulders would simply never grade their problems. The majority I am referring to are those who would be beneath "B1" or "hard" - the current limit of roped climbing. Even if sport climbing had never come along and whored out the roped rating system, it is reasonable to suppose that traditional climbs would easily extend up into the mid-13 range by now. Thus, B1 would start somewhere between v6 and v8, right? This would exclude most boulderers. (Yes, in an idyllic world it would be nice if they all just climbed and didn't attempt to compare or catalogue... but I don't think that was going to happen)
Thus, some sort of scale was needed to address the problems below this level (to suppose otherwise seems to me a bit naive/elitist/arrogant).
(on a side note, what Klem Loskot calls B1 is around v12. g'luck doing one of his B2s)
Number chasing is not a positive or a necessary thing. However, I don't see how Gill's scale could ever be implemented on a wide-spread basis (i.e. on a basis that included the publication of bouldering guidebooks, growing climbing population, etc). I also don't see how this is necessarily dependent on "spray" alone.
Do you truly think the Gill scale could function in a huge population of boulderers?
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wyattearp
May 16, 2004, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: Anyone wanting to see just how massive and amazing the climbing at Hollow Cave is should drop the 40 bucks on a copy of "EOS II Dreamtime" It is by far one of the best Bouldering movies I have ever seen. You can get it on-line at www.uncarvedblock.com.au Make sure you ask for the NA format! Good work Dai!!!!!
Straight up, you guys need to see Eos 2 Dreamtime, They Show Fred Nicole pulling down on V12's like there a warm up, I for sure thought Fred would be the one to link The King of the Cave, and now that Dai, has sent this epic problem, Im floored He must be insane to watch, I hope some one got Video of the send or at least some pics of him sending it, Good Job Dai! You da Man!
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curt
May 16, 2004, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: Curt, I'd have to agree with deafears in thinking Gill's scale to be insufficient. It is unrealistic to think that the great majority of boulders would simply never grade their problems. The majority I am referring to are those who would be beneath "B1" or "hard" - the current limit of roped climbing. Even if sport climbing had never come along and whored out the roped rating system, it is reasonable to suppose that traditional climbs would easily extend up into the mid-13 range by now. Thus, B1 would start somewhere between v6 and v8, right? Do you truly think the Gill scale could function in a huge population of boulderers?
That's a really good question. I think what would have happened is that the sliding B scale would have stopped sliding because the hardest individual moves on rock really haven't gotten much harder (if at all) in the last 20 years or so.
So, I think you would end up with something like B1 representing boulder problems from about V3 through V7. B2 would cover V8 or so and up. For problems easier than B1, you could always just say that an easier problem was 5.10 or 5.11, etc.
By the way, I fully realize that it is unlikely people will revert to using Gill's rating system, although I still do sometimes. I am merely pointing out that the "V" system has led directly to chasing the next big number and has therefore probably not been healthy for bouldering in some respects. I am done ranting about this now. :D
Curt
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superfox
May 16, 2004, 1:03 AM
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Why doesn't he just apply a French traverse grade and leave it up to the American climbing population to figure out what they think it is comparable to, either V16 or 5.15?
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