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jt512
Jul 25, 2004, 11:35 PM
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The following is a list of very common belay errors, each of which I observed yesterday at the crag; not that yesterday was anything out of the ordinary, as you can probably observe these any busy weekend at any crag. These are mistakes made by beginners and veterans alike; however, the old-timers don't listen, so I'm posting in the Beginners forum. Please feel free to post comments and questions.
- Keep a hand on the brake side of the rope at all times. This seems pretty basic, but I see this rule violated frequently. When you say "Belay on" you are making a contract with your partner to not let go of the brake side of the rope, even for an instant, until he says "Off belay." Even if you don't go through the formalities of using these commands, the principle is the same.
- Never grasp both sides of the rope simultaneously with your brake hand. Some climbers make this mistake when taking in or paying out rope. It is as serious a mistake as taking your brake hand off the rope. If your partner falls while you are holding both ropes in your brake hand, you will have to let go of his side of the rope while not letting go of the brake side, and then lock off. Good luck doing that quickly and correctly.
- Lower with both hands on the brake side of the rope. Running the rope through one hand is dangerous enough to require a back-up; namely, the other hand. Running a kink in the rope through your hand can knock your hand off the rope (it's happened to me twice, but using a grigri), as can a shard of glass or other sharp debris in the rope. The other day, my partner found an open staple sticking through his rope(!), though he had no idea how it got there.
- Stand up while belaying a leader. You need to be able to dodge rockfall, position the rope out of your partner's way, dynamically belay, etc.
- Generally, the best place to stand while belaying a leader is up close to the rock and just enough off to the side of the climber so that he won't fall directly onto you. This is especially true at the beginning of a climb, when the impact force on you will be the greatest and your partner could hit the ground if he falls. If your partner falls and you are not standing up close to the wall, you will be pulled into the wall. This increases the distance your partner will fall (not a good thing close to the ground), and you could also lose control of the belay. After your partner gets higher up and clips several pieces of protection, there will be more rope in the system and thus less impact force transmitted to the belayer in a fall. Then, you can move back a little to get a better view of your partner, and relieve your neck somewhat.
- Run the rope correctly through the belay device. Clip your belay device into your belay loop (as opposed to the tie-in points). This orients the slots in the belay device vertically. Then, put the rope into the belay device so that the rope going to the climber is coming out the top of the slot, and the brake side of the rope is coming out of the bottom. Then, when you lower the climber, lower with both hands (on the brake side of the rope) in front of you, not at your side. This keeps the rope from running over the side of the belay device, which twists the rope. When lowering, do not shuffle your hands up and down the rope, giving the climber a nauseating, bouncy ride to the ground. Instead, keep your hands in one place, let the rope run smoothly through them, and adjust your grip and the angle that you run the rope through the device to lower your partner at a safe, comfortable speed.
Click here for Part 2.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2008, 8:45 PM)
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curt
Jul 26, 2004, 12:08 AM
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OK, I'll play along............
1) Agreed
2) Agreed
3) not a big deal, but not a bad idea
4) not a big deal
5) Agreed
6) Agreed
Curt
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musicman
Jul 26, 2004, 12:24 AM
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thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah' they built a belay loop for a reason, and i'm sure they named it the BELAY LOOP for a reason too!! as far as always stand while belaying, thats not that big of a deal i think, except right at the start of a climb, other than that, as long as your paying attention and can belay just as well, go ahead and sit.
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caughtinside
Jul 26, 2004, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah'
Clipping through the tie ins is fine. I do that because I almost never take the device and the biner out. It's always there. I will take it out for hard leads, but that's about it. If you leave a device in the belay loop it will constantly be thwapping you in the crotch. Which some days I am in the mood for.
Someone posted just the other day about all the tragic deaths resulting from belay biner cross loadings... Hopefully I won't be next. :cry: :lol:
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jt512
Jul 26, 2004, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah' they built a belay loop for a reason, and i'm sure they named it the BELAY LOOP for a reason too!! as far as always stand while belaying, thats not that big of a deal i think, except right at the start of a climb, other than that, as long as your paying attention and can belay just as well, go ahead and sit.
Can you dynamically belay while seated? With a grigri? Can you dodge a falling rock while seated? I think it's a really big deal.
-Jay
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nextascent
Jul 26, 2004, 12:49 AM
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Thx for posting. I've been shown several ways to belay...but is there any safety differences on if you place your brake hand palm up vs palm down? Or is this a comfort thing? I am guilty of not giving the most smooth rides down so I'll try your "correction" point.
Thx again! :D
Lisa
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jt512
Jul 26, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: ...but is there any safety differences on if you place your brake hand palm up vs palm down?
Executed correctly, both ways are safe. When I teach a beginner to belay, I teach the palms up method. It is the more difficult of the two methods to learn, and hence requires more practice. However, the advantage of the palms-up method is that most people find that they can pay out rope faster for a fast-moving leader this way. Belaying palms down, they find that they can't get rope out fast enough, and "short rope" their partners. Hence, they eventually switch to palms-up belaying out of necessity. I find that if they've learned palms-down belaying first, they are hesitant to make the switch. Palms-down belaying, on the other hand, works well for top-roping, or when the climber is moving slowly. Most experienced climbers, who learned palms-up belaying when it was basically the only method taught, naturally switch between the two methods: palms up to feed slack fast when the leader is moving and clipping fast; palms down for TRing or when the climber is resting frequently.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 26, 2004, 1:02 AM
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In reply to: Can you dynamically belay while seated? With a grigri?
Yes. On a long fall on a big route, you do not need to jump to provide a dynamic belay.
Beginners should not sit down while they are belaying. They make enough other mistakes to warrant not allowing that luxury.
That said, an experienced climber is not necesarily being unsafe by belaying while seated.
It is polite to ask the leader if he/she minds that you sit.
If the leader is looking sketched, the belayer should stand.
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jt512
Jul 26, 2004, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: If the leader is looking sketched, the belayer should stand.
If it is important to stand when the leader looks sketched, why is it unimportant when he doesn't look sketched?
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 26, 2004, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If the leader is looking sketched, the belayer should stand. If it is important to stand when the leader looks sketched, why is it unimportant when he doesn't look sketched?
Because it can be mentally reassuring to the leader to see the belayer standing and paying attention.(gf beta)
My last GF insisted for a long time, that I always "stand and watch me, no matter what." She eventually learned that sometimes it doesn't matter, and she is still the conservative type.
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nirvana
Jul 26, 2004, 2:51 AM
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My BF is much heavier than I, so I usually anchor myself when we're outside and conditions permit. I leave some slack so I can move around (for rockfall, dynamic belay, etc.) One day, though, I decided a nice option was to sit, anchored. Left the usual bit of slack between my harness and the anchor. He took a whipper, and my resulting slide across the nice boulder I'd found to sit on was rather unpleasant and difficult to control. So I like to belay standing. Better to take flight a bit than to get dragged across a rock.
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dontjinxme
Jul 26, 2004, 3:33 AM
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Thanks for #6. I was taught to run the belay loop through both tie in points. And confirmed by others. Even in books, I have read that the belay loop is an option. You had a very good point. Next time I am at the crag, I will give it a shot and see how I feel about it.
Just for general F.Y.I. I the other day, through a post on this site, I was told to connect my webbing together with carabiners while setting up Top Rope anchors. I tried it today, and was much more comfortable with that set up, than the way I was doing it by girth hiching the webbing together.
Sometimes these posts are redundant, boring, or insulting, they do serve a very important purpose if people are learning from them.
Also, I did attempt a key chain carabiner rappell off my kitchen chair
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corpse
Jul 26, 2004, 4:12 AM
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(1,2) This is why I've changed my belay technique (for the most part) from the gym taughter pinch and slide method, to where I shuffle my hands.. Ya know, pull the guide rope down when they move up, pull the slack with the brake hand, and then switch hands - and then reposition them as necessary. This way, I ALWAYS have a hand gripped on the rope, not sliding on the rope - and to me sliding is just as bad as resting, if not worse - a fall while your hand is sliding (I'd *think*) would be bad (if your reaction time isn't good enuf - but do you really want to find out?)
On point 6 - There's another reason.. If you are using a smaller size belay biner, and are using both loops, you are causing more stress on the biner.. Now, I really don't think it's going to break though :) If a harness has the belay loop, use that - if you want to make that rendudant, use a sling thru your 2 tie in points (girth hitch) and clip to the biner, now you backed up your belay loop. I should just get a nice titanium belay biner, and never have to worry about how I do it :-)
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climb_plastic
Jul 26, 2004, 4:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If the leader is looking sketched, the belayer should stand. If it is important to stand when the leader looks sketched, why is it unimportant when he doesn't look sketched? Because it can be mentally reassuring to the leader to see the belayer standing and paying attention.(gf beta).
Yeah, it is more reassuring to look down and see the belayer standing versus looking down and seeing him sitting. I wonder why.
I think JT is trying to make the point that you should be standing all the time.
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climb_plastic
Jul 26, 2004, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: (1,2) This is why I've changed my belay technique (for the most part) from the gym taughter pinch and slide method, to where I shuffle my hands.. Ya know, pull the guide rope down when they move up, pull the slack with the brake hand, and then switch hands - and then reposition them as necessary. This way, I ALWAYS have a hand gripped on the rope, not sliding on the rope - and to me sliding is just as bad as resting, if not worse - a fall while your hand is sliding (I'd *think*) would be bad (if your reaction time isn't good enuf - but do you really want to find out?)
You're right about this and some people have recognized it and use hand over hand techniques just as you describe to always have a locked brake hand. This isn't a very commonly known problem though and most people that do know about it still call it knitpicking.
In reply to: On point 6 - There's another reason.. If you are using a smaller size belay biner, and are using both loops, you are causing more stress on the biner.. Now, I really don't think it's going to break though :)
This is another good point. and the biner can break this way. It's another thing that people know about but most will call it knitpicking.
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overlord
Jul 26, 2004, 5:51 AM
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i vote for sticky.
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beesty511
Jul 26, 2004, 6:25 AM
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In reply to: 6)...Instead, keep your hands in one place, let the rope run smoothly through them, and adjust your grip and the angle that you run the rope through the device to lower your partner at a safe, comfortable speed.
...and if the climber starts dropping too fast the belayer could burn their hands or worse-- they could lose control and drop the climber to the deck. When lowering a climber, there is no justification for letting the rope slide through your hands when a simple and safer method exists.
A safer method for lowering a climber is to put both hands on the brake strand below the belay device with your hands about 2 feet apart. Clamp down with your bottom hand, relax the upper hand so it's still circling the rope, and while bringing your bottom hand up towards your top hand, feed the rope through your top hand. When your bottom hand meets your top hand, clamp down with top hand, loosen your grip with your bottom hand and slide it back down the brake strand towards the ground. Then, clamp down with your bottom hand, relax your top hand, and repeat. With very little practice, you will be able to lower the climber smoothly and safely. It’s also a safer way to rappel.
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highminded
Jul 26, 2004, 8:26 AM
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In reply to: Generally, the best place to stand while belaying a leader is up close to the rock and just enough off to the side of the climber so that he won't fall directly onto you.
BOTH these are important. I saw someone get smacked into a wall once and split his sclap open because his leader fell and he was standing too far away from the wall. I also know somebody who suffered a concussion, broken nose and lost his two front teeth because his leader fell on him while starting a climb.
Also important: WEAR YOUR HELMET WHEN BELAYING -- both these injuries could have been avoided if the belayer had done so (okay, well maybe not the broken nose and knocked-out teeth part, but certainly the concussion.)
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vegastradguy
Jul 26, 2004, 3:26 PM
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thanks, Jay...thats always good stuff to post...its good for both experienced and beginners to refresh themselves every so often.
I remember coming down from the Great Red Book in RR and passing through the Black Corridor (walls are about 15'-20' apart) and this guy was belaying a leader up a 5.9 and she was two clips up and he was sitting down with his back against the far wall...and 15' of rope b/w him and the first bolt. I was really glad she didnt fall, but it was still unnerving. I see that all the time in the corridor, actually...its the one belay habit that just scares me...someone is going to get hurt one day in there.
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jt512
Jul 26, 2004, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 6)...Instead, keep your hands in one place, let the rope run smoothly through them, and adjust your grip and the angle that you run the rope through the device to lower your partner at a safe, comfortable speed. ...and if the climber starts dropping too fast the belayer could burn their hands or worse-- they could lose control and drop the climber to the deck. When lowering a climber, there is no justification for letting the rope slide through your hands when a simple and safer method exists.
There is essentially no risk that the climber will burn his hands and/or lose control while lowering by letting the rope slide though their hands. The belayer starts with the rope locked off, and gradually increases the angle that the brake side of the rope makes going through the belay device. There is no problem controlling the speed. If you want to reduce the speed, you simply decrease the angle.
Usually, you need very little hand strength to control the speed of lowering; the belay device does almost all the work. However, with a heavy partner, a skinny rope, and minimal friction in the system, it may be difficult to lower smoothly without gripping the rope tightly. In such a case, the belayer can wear a glove and lower smoothly without resorting to shuffling his hands back and forth on the rope.
Using the method you suggest, it is hard to lower without some bouncing occurring. I especially disagree with your recommendation to rappel that way, since rappelling occasionally must be done from marginal anchors, where any bouncing must be avoided.
-Jay
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timstich
Aug 3, 2004, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: Can you dynamically belay while seated? With a grigri? Can you dodge a falling rock while seated? I think it's a really big deal. -Jay
If the belaying area allows you to stand, then I always stand. If I'm on a little precipice and can get half a butt cheek on it, well... Like you say, the control is much better. In addition, as the person climbs you can back away from the cliff to see them and better react/communicate.
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j_ung
Aug 3, 2004, 3:01 PM
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jt512, I agree with every one of your points, with only the most rare of exceptions. Good thread!
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yanqui
Aug 3, 2004, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: Can you dodge a falling rock while seated? I think it's a really big deal. -Jay
Except on multi-pitch routes with hanging or semi-hanging belays, I typically stood while belaying, but I didn't make this a firm rule until I suffered the following experience about 10 years ago. That afternoon, I went climbing to a seldom traveled 60 foot wall on the shore of Lago Puelo in the north of Patagonia with a strong, but much younger and less experienced Argentine climber named Diego.
After doing some easier lead climbs and some 'deep water' boulder traverses, we decided to top rope a harder looking line to the right. It was a beautiful, sunny aternoon and the belay stance was on a comfortable flat rock right next to the peaceful lapping water of the lake. Diego wanted to try the line first (which may have been virgin) and I couldn't resist laying down on the rock while belaying. About 40 feet up Diego began to struggle, and instead of hanging on to recover, he suddenly launched an all-out dyno to a large blocky hold about 3 feet higher up. This hold instantly dislodged, and before I had time to respond, the 5 pound block impacted my right thigh. Man, was I lucky the rock hit me there. Except for a deep cut that wanted to keep bleeding and a seriously sore thigh muscle, I basically escaped unscathed. And in spite of the direct hit, I held the fall with a figure eight and safely lowered Diego to the ground, although I have to admit I was seriously pissed at Diego for dislodging the rock and not carefully testing the holds. In order to get medical attention, I had to go limping about a mile or so and then take a bus, but all I needed was some stitching up to close the cut. On the other hand, if the rock had impacted my knee, or worse my head, it would have been way serious.
At least one conclusion to draw is the following: always stay on your feet (if possible) and always stay alert while belaying.
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j_ung
Aug 3, 2004, 4:23 PM
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When can we expect Part 2?
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jt512
Aug 3, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: When can we expect Part 2?
Yesterday. :)
Part 2.
-Jay
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g
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Aug 3, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah' they built a belay loop for a reason, and i'm sure they named it the BELAY LOOP for a reason too!!
I think JT mentioned that due to rope twist, but really it is another of many personal choices. I don't think there are any major differences in strength that are at issue, and triaxial load problem with the tie in points is not a real issue because pretty low forces will yank everything to where it is properly loaded.
There are other reasons than rope twist to use the belay loop, but it is nothing that one needs to be dogmatic about.
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fracture
Aug 4, 2004, 9:01 PM
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Another vote for sticky.
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coylec
Aug 4, 2004, 9:35 PM
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I think these are great suggestions for beginners. However, there are circumstances in which it may be prudient to disregard some of these suggestions. However, unless you know of the reasons why you should purdiently ignore these suggestions, it makes sense to follow them.
coylec
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grayrock
Aug 5, 2004, 6:24 PM
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I have enjoyed this discussion quit a bit. I was hoping to see some comments about putting a figure 8 knot at the dead end of the rope. Having read several posts about folks getting injured this summer because the rope completely fed through the belay device, I have started putting a figure 8 at the dead end of the rope as a matter of habit so as not to be caught by surprise. I would like to see you add that as #7.
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jt512
Aug 5, 2004, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: I have enjoyed this discussion quit a bit. I was hoping to see some comments about putting a figure 8 knot at the dead end of the rope. Having read several posts about folks getting injured this summer because the rope completely fed through the belay device, I have started putting a figure 8 at the dead end of the rope as a matter of habit so as not to be caught by surprise. I would like to see you add that as #7.
I always put a knot in the belayer's end of the rope when the route is long, and have never - yet - tried to pull the rope down without untying the knot first. If you want to eliminate that potential problem, tie the end of the rope into your rope bag.
-Jay
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curt
Aug 5, 2004, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: I have enjoyed this discussion quit a bit. I was hoping to see some comments about putting a figure 8 knot at the dead end of the rope. Having read several posts about folks getting injured this summer because the rope completely fed through the belay device, I have started putting a figure 8 at the dead end of the rope as a matter of habit so as not to be caught by surprise. I would like to see you add that as #7.
An even better solution is to have the other end of the rope tied to the belayer.
Curt
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overlord
Aug 5, 2004, 6:44 PM
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yes, make a loop, put a biner through it and clip it somewhere. something worth considering.
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slcliffdiver
Aug 5, 2004, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: I have enjoyed this discussion quit a bit. I was hoping to see some comments about putting a figure 8 knot at the dead end of the rope. Having read several posts about folks getting injured this summer because the rope completely fed through the belay device, I have started putting a figure 8 at the dead end of the rope as a matter of habit so as not to be caught by surprise. I would like to see you add that as #7.
Figure 8 knots can be pushed down the rope and go through the device (I think this happened with amberchick and her resulting giant whipper Edit: Sounds like Amber used an overhand but supposedly 8's can do the same thing). Barrel knots are more reliable though I think curts advice is when broadly applied is generally the most reliable way of keeping out of trouble and getting your rope back.
I'm really glad Jay brought up the point about lowering with two hands. A small wild rose branch caught on the rope while lowering somebody convinced me to start doing this years ago though tangles also have the potential for trouble. I really wish this would become standard for gyms and everywhere else. With very rare exceptions I think it's safer this way and there is virtually no cost in time complexity or anything else I can think of. People lowering with one hand doesn't really scare me inordinatly I just can't think of a good reason not to use two most of the time (gri gri's excepted).
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slcliffdiver
Aug 7, 2004, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Figure 8 knots can be pushed down the rope and go through the device WTF. How can a figure 8 knot pass through a belay device? I call shenanigans. coylec
The knott can potentially get pushed off the end of the rope, like when you push it up or down the rope to adjust the amount of tail before you tie in. I could have worded it better. At least thats what I was taught and it makes sense to me. To make it clear I'm talking about the 8 you tie before you pass the end through your harness not a full figure eight on a bight.
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brutusofwyde
Aug 7, 2004, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Figure 8 knots can be pushed down the rope and go through the device WTF. How can a figure 8 knot pass through a belay device? I call shenanigans. coylec
Coylec -- Not everyone uses a belay device to rappel. Some of us use an "eight" of whatever the f$ it's called. Others of us still use a carabiner brake or a Munter or a carabiner wrap, depending on the situation and our own systems.
I was talking to the "Mad Bolter" once in Yosemite (fwiw he established the rap route on the Nose) and he was teling me about watching a figure eight on a bight getting slowly sucked through his brake setup while penji'ing over to the next station. Thereafter he switched to tying an eight on a bight with a 4" bong clipped with a locking carabiner through it...
my point is that each system and situation is unique and there are no pat answers. except stay focused and double check everything. And if you change any system you routinely use, be extra careful and discuss such changes with your partner before ever committing your life to them.
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jt512
Aug 9, 2004, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Figure 8 knots can be pushed down the rope and go through the device WTF. How can a figure 8 knot pass through a belay device? I call shenanigans. coylec
A figure-8 knot can roll off the end of the rope when loaded. The better stopper knot is the barrel knot, ie, half of a double fishermans knot, which tightens when loaded.
-Jay
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coylec
Aug 9, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I believe that they can get pushed down the rope if not properly tied and never disputed that. I'm still not convinced that they'll "go through the device." And, working with it here, I can't make a properly tied figure eight go down the rope.
It's not important though.
coylec
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andy_reagan
Aug 9, 2004, 6:34 PM
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You could clean up your original post by making the semantics a little less confusing. For instance, you say, the following is a list of common belay errors(etc)...then go on to create a list of good belay techniques. This is contradictory and confusing. Why not cut out the preamble mumbling and "cut to the chase"?
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slcliffdiver
Aug 9, 2004, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: I believe that they can get pushed down the rope if not properly tied and never disputed that. I'm still not convinced that they'll "go through the device." And, working with it here, I can't make a properly tied figure eight go down the rope. It's not important though. coylec
Ropes: 8.5 dynamic, 10.5 dynamic and BW II static (know I don't lead on it curious for other reasons) 10.? 11 mm all moderately used.
Tests:
Slap test (I repeatedly try and slap the knot down the rope and off the end. One test only.)
Figure 8's one test only;
8.5 dynamic-- knot stayed put.
10.5 dynamic-- knot worked it's way off the rope.
Static-- knot stayed put.
Barrel knots all stayed put.
Crack test (Put the rope between my fingers (make shift crack) and repeatedly jerked on the rope so the knot would hit my fingers agian and again:
Figure 8's;
10.5 dynamic-- Sometimes it would come off fast, sometimes slow, sometimes not at all. If it tightened up and stayed tight it wouldn't come off.
Others wouldn't come off though I only tried the skinny one and the static one once.
Barrel knots tightened up and wouldn't come off.
Stick test (I insert my thumb into the hole formed by the loop closest to the end of the rope and pulled on it and losened repeatedly, the the side of the rope going through the loop mattered but don't know how to describe easily which is which):
Figure 8's;
10.5 dynamic-- the knot came out relatively fast.
Other ropes-- took more jerks but generally the knot came off.
Barrel knot same as above but came off a bit slower and in a different way.
Belay device test Jaws, BRD, Gri Gri, Tuber II (tried to pull knot through with hand):
Figure 8's; Generally the 8 would half invert eat a little tail then stop and I was starting to get generally bored but on the second test with the 8.5 (on a jaws) I turned the rope a bit after the first pull and ended up pulling around 6" of tail through the knot the knot was stopped with about 1/2 inch of tail sticking out! I tried to repeat this around 8 times but couldn't get it to happen again. My theory the 8 can end up with different parts of the knot hooked on different parts of the belay device depending on it's orientaition entering the device and maybe some other factors and there is at least one combination that is pretty damn bad.
Barrel knot; Jammed in the device and tightend each time I tested it.
In the test above; generally I was trying to vary the angle, pressure, timing and position of the knot to get it to come off. I don't think I did anything that is out of the relm of possibilty for real life scenios (though I'll admit alot of the above might apply more often to rappelling).
Conclusions:
I just waisted an hour.
A 8 at the end of the rope for rappelling for a stopper knot is probably a really bad idea compared to a barrel knot.
A barrel knot is probably more reliable as a stopper knot for lowering than an 8 but feel free to argue amongst yourselves, I'll use the barrel knot.
PS:
When hanging the closer the knot was to the end generally the faster the tail would slide through I'm guessing that the weight of the tail helps pull the knot closed.
Edited 2: Some things just don't seem funny anymore after getting some sleep.
Edit 3: changed "semi loosely tied" to only slightly tightened which is what I should have said semi-loose means mostly tight, not what I meant.
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coylec
Aug 11, 2004, 12:41 AM
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nice job.
:cry: tried again wtih 9.6mm and a 10.3mm. can't get it to move.
coylec
edit: i got it to move! i just made the fig8 shape and didn't tighten or dress it.
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slcliffdiver
Aug 11, 2004, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: nice job. :cry: tried again wtih 9.6mm and a 10.3mm. can't get it to move. coylec edit: i got it to move! i just made the fig8 shape and didn't tighten or dress it.
Thanks, "slightly tightened" would have been more clear and more accurate than "semi-loose" I'll edit it, I got it confused kind of like a double negative. I'm bad with those most of the time, sorry for the confusion.
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dirtineye
Sep 2, 2004, 2:58 AM
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I spent about 10 years using a figure 8 in braided dacron rope as a stopper knot for sheets on sail boats. Not once did one ever pull out. The figure 8 is THE stopper knot since forever. Of course you have to tie it correctly, and that means not loosely.
I don't have a thing against the half fisherman's though. Ashely gives it as the double overhand or blood knot. It was called the blood knot because it was used at the ends of a cat o nine tails.
But others already pointed out that you can tie off the end of the rope, either to a rope bag, a belayer, and I'll add even a tree or other anchor.
There's another knot called the barrel or blood knot (stupid knot names, too many knots, not enough names) that not many people tie. It's a bend. It's nothing like the half fisherman's that gets called a barrel knot these days.
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slcliffdiver
Sep 2, 2004, 4:18 AM
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I started out using the 8 (single line no loop) for stopper knots rapps and made them tight. I hadn't been doing this long before I found a knot that had started out tight really loose after reaching it on a ledge. I don't know what happened (I assumed it happend hitting the rock on the way down or the ledge) but it was enough to change my mind about my choice of stopper knots. Since then I have absolutely no confidence in the ability of an 8 to stay tight after being tossed on rappel. My concern (which may be misplaced) for 8's on the ground while belaying is that sticks etc. could be a problem snagging and loosening it. I have no idea about dacron but I'm guessing cord that is significantly more supple and or less slick than climbing rope would cinch up better and hold the knot tighter under more circumstances. The above experiments are what I can remember of a guide trying to demonstrate potential problems with the 8 for rappeling to someone. I don't know how many times on average you'll have to throw a climbing rope for you to find an 8 that's loosened up from a throw. I only know it happens. Experience can be a biasing thing that may not reflect statitistical averages well. But now 8's for stopper knotts on rappel personally scare me a lot (hence my crusade:). Maybe some of my misgivings for use as a belay stopper knott are out of proportion because of this but I think I've put out my reasoning and people can make up thier own minds.
Edited: Grammar and clarity.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 4:47 AM
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In reply to: I started out using the 8 (single line no loop) for stopper knots rapps and made them tight. I hadn't been doing this long before I found a knot that had started out tight really loose after reaching it on a ledge. I don't know what happened (I assumed it happend hitting the rock on the way down or the ledge) but it was enough to change my mind about my choice of stopper knots.
To my way of thinking, the choice of the barrel/blood/half-double fisherman's knot for use as a stopper knot is a no-brainer. The barrel knot doesn't loosen up on its own, the way an overhand or a figure 8 can. Moreover, if all hell breaks loose and the belayer (or rappeller) loses complete control, and the rope runs through the belay device at high speed and the knot gets pulled hard onto the belay device, the barrel knot will tighten, where as the other knots can roll. There is absolutely no disadvantage to using the barrel knot, so even if its advantage over the other knots is small, it is the only logical choice.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 4:56 AM
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I find it interesting that the best suggestion in this entire thread has received no responses at all. Perhaps this is merely indicative of the overall quality of dialog around here, where actual climbing knowledge is concerned.
Please continue arguing about what particular knot to tie in the end of your rope though--as if it matters.
Curt
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:00 AM
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In reply to: Please continue arguing about what particular knot to tie in the end of your rope though--as if it matters. Curt
Curt, the choice of knot for the end of the rope might not be the most important point in the thread, but it does matter. A guy I was climbing with today tied a loose overhand knot 6 inches from the end of a 60m rope while belaying a full 30m route. Had that knot actually been needed, I'd have given it a 75% chance of failure.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Please continue arguing about what particular knot to tie in the end of your rope though--as if it matters. Curt Curt, the choice of knot for the end of the rope might not be the most important point in the thread, but it does matter. A guy I was climbing with today tied a loose overhand knot 6 inches from the end of a 60m rope while belaying a full 30m route. Had that knot actually been needed, I'd have given it a 75% chance of failure. -Jay
The other end of that rope should be tied to the belayer--period, if safety is really the topic at hand.
Curt
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Please continue arguing about what particular knot to tie in the end of your rope though--as if it matters. Curt Curt, the choice of knot for the end of the rope might not be the most important point in the thread, but it does matter. A guy I was climbing with today tied a loose overhand knot 6 inches from the end of a 60m rope while belaying a full 30m route. Had that knot actually been needed, I'd have given it a 75% chance of failure. -Jay The other end of that rope should be tied to the belayer--period, if safety is really the topic at hand. Curt
Why? The belayer isn't going to be following the route. This wasn't a trad climb.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Please continue arguing about what particular knot to tie in the end of your rope though--as if it matters. Curt Curt, the choice of knot for the end of the rope might not be the most important point in the thread, but it does matter. A guy I was climbing with today tied a loose overhand knot 6 inches from the end of a 60m rope while belaying a full 30m route. Had that knot actually been needed, I'd have given it a 75% chance of failure. -Jay The other end of that rope should be tied to the belayer--period, if safety is really the topic at hand. Curt Why? The belayer isn't going to be following the route. This wasn't a trad climb. -Jay
Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Also, the first poster in this thread to mention the "knot in the end of the rope" topic (grayrock on page two) did not specify if this related directly to trad climbs, sport climbs, or otherwise. My comment applies universally, in any event.
Curt
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt
And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay
I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you.
Curt
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slcliffdiver
Sep 2, 2004, 5:27 AM
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In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Also, the first poster in this thread to mention the "knot in the end of the rope" topic (grayrock on page two) did not specify if this related directly to trad climbs, sport climbs, or otherwise. My comment applies universally, in any event. Curt
I already said I generally liked your solution the best. Though I buried it because of my rapping on an 8 pet pieve.
If you could talk everyone to tie in (which I doubt though I could have been more helpful) I'd be totally with you. I'm just doubting this is going to happen (examples at the crag) and I worry about the crossover to a rapping stopper knot.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you. Curt
Everything is a cost-benefit question. Nonetheless, you have yet to give any reason why tying in superior to tying a barrel knot.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Why? Because you can argue all day long about which knot may or may not be forced through, or become untied by a belay device--but I have yet to see a belayer get pulled through one. Curt And I've yet to see a barrel knot either come untied or get pulled through. -Jay I'm somewhat surprised, Jay. Usually the second best answer isn't good enough for you. Curt Everything is a cost-benefit question. Nonetheless, you have yet to give any reason why tying in superior to tying a barrel knot. -Jay
I don't understand, Jay. Does it really "cost" you more for the belayer to tie into the other end of the rope? The rest of the answer is straightforward. If the belayer does indeed tie himself into the belay end of the rope, this is superior to (and therefore negates) any argument about what knot should be placed in that end of the rope. Somewhat more simple and more elegant, eh?
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 6:14 AM
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Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope.
I only occasionally tie a knot in the end of a rope. Why, because I do not like fixed ropes.
Getting dropped by an inattentive belayer is something that I will leave to other people.
Getting dropped generally means that both people involved in the incident were not paying attention. If I let someone lower me off the end of a rope, I would consider it as much my fault as his.
Some people manage to convince themselves that sport climbing is safe. It isn't.
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edge
Sep 2, 2004, 2:48 PM
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This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ, which is now stickied atop the Beginners Forum, so I am removing the sticky status from this particular thread. I am sure with all of the recent discussion it will remain on the first page here until it has played out fully. Thanks Jay and everyone for the great topic.
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miklaw
Sep 2, 2004, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: Thx for posting. I've been shown several ways to belay...but is there any safety differences on if you place your brake hand palm up vs palm down? Or is this a comfort thing? I am guilty of not giving the most smooth rides down so I'll try your "correction" point. Thx again! :D Lisa
I agree with the thread that palm up is best for lead belaying, but in some setups belaying a second it's hard to pull the rope back for friction and palm down may be better
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robmcc
Sep 2, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope.
I'd be very interested to hear how the belayer's tying in would twist the rope at all, let alone twisting the heck out of it.
Seriously.
Leader -> Belay device -> slack pile of rope -> knot tied to the belayer's harness
How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not?
Rob
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sandrock
Sep 2, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Ok, so I feel like a beginner!! I've been climbing nearly 6 years and that's the first time I've heard you shouldnt load through the tie in points. My mentor taught me that way and insisited it was stronger. WOW!
Thank you indeed for the tips. Nitpicking or not who wouldnt want to give a safer belay??
Thanks!
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j_ung
Sep 2, 2004, 5:28 PM
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Sometimes when my climber is cruxing on a hard onsight attempt, I let go the brake on purpose and yell, "UNCONSCIOUS BELAYER DRILL! QUICK: WHAT DO YOU DO?!" I only do this in the gym, though, because it's safer there. I think my partners appreciate the sense of realism that it adds to their overall climbing experience. :D
(Edited to add shit-eating smiley grin.)
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dirtineye
Sep 2, 2004, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Having your belayer tie in on a single pitch sport climb does offer some safety benefits if the belayer doesn't know how to belay. Most times this is offset by the fact that it will tend to twist the heck out of your rope. I'd be very interested to hear how the belayer's tying in would twist the rope at all, let alone twisting the heck out of it. Seriously. Leader -> Belay device -> slack pile of rope -> knot tied to the belayer's harness How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not? Rob
Any twists wil be forced down to the loose end. if you don't use a lot of the rope, you might not even notice. But if you have a rope with some twists, or you put some twists in it one way or anohter and you have both ends tied off, they head for the slack end. IF that end is free, the twists just sort themselves out, like when you suspend a twisted phone cord and let the reciever dangle and unwind.
Just try this-- take your rope at one end and feed it through your hand, without letting the rope twist at all. pretty soon you'll notice some odd looking turns developing at the part between you and the pile. as you keep doing this, you will have to do something like shake the twists further down. Same thign happens with extension cords.
So, if both ends are fixed, the twists can't escape, and if there are a lot of em, you get a mess. Byt if the rope is not twisted much to start with and you dont add many twists, you may not notice anything at all.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: How would it make any difference at all whether that knot at the end of the slack pile of rope is attached to a harness or not?
With a perfect rope, belayer, and route. it would not make a difference
Things that introduce twists into your rope:
Lowering off a standard 2 draw anchor
Belaying and lowering with a grigri
lowering off a single draw
lowering off cold shuts
lowering off of quicklinks(one quicklink per bolt is the worst)
mussy hooks
Coiling a rope
Not swapping which end of the rope that you tie into
Next time you pull a rope, watch how many times the end of the rope will spin when it first leaves the ground.
For myself, keeping twists out of the rope is the major chore in sport climbing.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: If the belayer does indeed tie himself into the belay end of the rope, this is superior to (and therefore negates) any argument about what knot should be placed in that end of the rope.
You have yet to present any evidence that tying the belayer into the rope is actually superior to tying a barrel knot into it.
-Jay
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ
This discussion does not belong in the Trad FAQ. Belaying isn't specific to trad climbing. In fact, many of the points are more applicable to sport climbing than trad climbing.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 2, 2004, 6:37 PM
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We are probably going to have a belaying chapter of the faq that will cover all aspects of belaying. Putting it in the trad faq for now will not effect that.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: We are probably going to have a belaying chapter of the faq that will cover all aspects of belaying. Putting it in the trad faq for now will not effect that.
Check.
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dalguard
Sep 2, 2004, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: You have yet to present any evidence that tying the belayer into the rope is actually superior to tying a barrel knot into it.
For those of us who mix and match, tying in is a good habit. Then you're never not tied in when you should have been.
P.S. If we're having tangle problems, I'll wait until the leader has pulled up the rope and I've said "that's me", then I'll untie and let the kinks work out before tying in again.
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jt512
Sep 2, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Here's the deal with tying a knot in the end of the rope: If I'm leading the route, and I have any doubt about the rope running completely through the belay device when I'm going to be lowered, resulting in me getting dropped, then I can tie a knot in the end of the rope. I can do this at any time, and once it's done, I can forget about it. If I want a knot in the end of the rope, I can, and usually will, tie it before I tie in, put my shoes on, or am put on belay.
If you are setting up a TR that several people are going to take turns on -- common in sport climbing -- then you can put one knot in the rope one time and forget about it. Clearly, this is both safer and more convenient, than relying on each belayer tying in.
Putting a knot in the end of the rope is protection against being dropped when you are being lowered. If you will be belaying from the top of the pitch, then your partner should tie in before you leave the ground, so, as dalguard says you don't pull the rope up out of their reach.
-Jay
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curt
Sep 2, 2004, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This great discussion is now linked into the Trad FAQ This discussion does not belong in the Trad FAQ. Belaying isn't specific to trad climbing. In fact, many of the points are more applicable to sport climbing than trad climbing. -Jay
You have yet to present any evidence that this is more applicable to sport climbing. :lol:
Curt
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tradrenn
Sep 19, 2008, 7:44 PM
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I think it's good to refresh our memory from time to time so I gave this thread a bump.
Make sure to read part 2.
Thanks Jt.
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jt512
Sep 19, 2008, 8:48 PM
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tradrenn wrote: I think it's good to refresh our memory from time to time so I gave this thread a bump. Make sure to read part 2. Thanks Jt.
You're welcome. I fixed the formatting of the original post.
Jay
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #73 of 88
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Excellent! Part 6 made me question dudes I previously thought were *dudes* in the sense that they *knew* and could instruct safely. Guess that's why I'm here though. To self-edumucate and get some other opinions.
Since words are great but pictures are better... Is this picture at this URL (my own public web server SFW) the proper way to set up a belay? If so my people have it slightly wrong. They bring the climber in top and the break out the top. If I read you right then the proper way is as I've pictured it at this URL
correct?
Is the top-in -> top-out way *that* much worse or does top-in -> bottom-out provide additional friction on the rope which is preferable?
(This post was edited by codefrog on May 20, 2009, 6:07 PM)
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gimmeslack
May 20, 2009, 7:18 PM
Post #74 of 88
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jt512 wrote: ..... Putting a knot in the end of the rope is protection against being dropped when you are being lowered. If you will be belaying from the top of the pitch, then your partner should tie in before you leave the ground, so, as dalguard says you don't pull the rope up out of their reach. -Jay
After not doing much climbing in the past year, I was at local crag recently with my wife, where she belayed me up a single pitch route. Once I'd built a belay, I started casually taking up slack (prolly only a 100' pitch). About the time I'd started wondering why there was some much rope still coming up, I saw the sharp end pop into view just below me. "honey?, did you not tie in?"
She had turned her back and sat down to tie her shoes. Doh!!
Two lessons learned that day:
1) always go ahead and tie in
2) talk to your partner, don't assume unless you HAVE to.
It was no big deal, but would have sucked on a multipitch or somewhere that wasn't a walk-down to base of crag. 
(This post was edited by gimmeslack on May 20, 2009, 7:19 PM)
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jt512
May 20, 2009, 7:23 PM
Post #75 of 88
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codefrog wrote: Excellent! Part 6 made me question dudes I previously thought were *dudes* in the sense that they *knew* and could instruct safely. Guess that's why I'm here though. To self-edumucate and get some other opinions. Since words are great but pictures are better... Is this picture at this URL (my own public web server SFW) the proper way to set up a belay? If so my people have it slightly wrong. They bring the climber in top and the break out the top. If I read you right then the proper way is as I've pictured it at this URL correct?
Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is the rope going in one slot of the ATC and out the other?
Jay
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 7:33 PM
Post #77 of 88
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Thank you! I have been doing it right all along then.
After reading this part of his step 6 I was unsure:
6. "...Then, put the rope into the belay device so that the rope going to the climber is coming out the top of the slot, and the brake side of the rope is coming out of the bottom..."
When I read the above it made me wonder if my picture isn't what he intended. I've always belayed the way your red line shows. I now understand his top/bottom was in orientation to the top of the slot being the non-ribbed side and the bottom meaning the ribbed side.
I'm glad I did ask this. Thanks a ton! Your artwork was perfect and picture clears up the ability to misread step 6 on his instructions.
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jamincan
May 20, 2009, 7:42 PM
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codefrog wrote: I now understand his top/bottom was in orientation to the top of the slot being the non-ribbed side and the bottom meaning the ribbed side.
I believe that the top/bottom is more in reference to yourself than to grooves on the ATC. The ATC-XP can be used in two modes - high friction or low friction. When it is oriented as shown in the photo, it is in high friction mode. If you were to flip it around so that the rope runs through in essentially the same way (brake strand away from you, climber strand closer to you), but the grooves faced toward you, it would be in a lower friction mode.
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 7:51 PM
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Oh! Geez that makes sense. Hadn't even thought of that.  
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jt512
May 20, 2009, 9:48 PM
Post #80 of 88
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codefrog wrote: Your artwork was perfect and picture clears up the ability to misread step 6 on his instructions.
More like the inability to read it correctly.
Jay
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 10:42 PM
Post #81 of 88
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Okay fine. If that's what makes you sleep warm and fuzzy then I lack the ability to read it correctly. 
I work in source code for a living. Math and crazy symbols mean a lot more to me than English. I find American English meanders even more. I've read all your posts on kilonewtons, falls, rope and gear mechanics and followed them just fine. I'm the last person on earth (except maybe my wife) that is surprised by my ability to over complicate something simple.
I'm more than happy to have an inability to read something correctly if that means that in the end I understand your meaning it's all good.
I'm 2 months new to climbing and I'd rather ask really dumb questions than go "splat" especially where my kids might be involved.
HOOYAH!
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Johnny_Fang
May 20, 2009, 10:55 PM
Post #82 of 88
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jt512 wrote: codefrog wrote: Your artwork was perfect and picture clears up the ability to misread step 6 on his instructions. More like the inability to read it correctly. Jay
Classic Jay.
I actually put this thread into my 'Jay response modeling program' and it spat out Jay's predicted response as: 'More like your inability to read instructions correctly.' It looks like my residual is quite low on this one, quite low.
Predicted response to the current post?
"*Plonk*"
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codefrog
May 20, 2009, 11:10 PM
Post #83 of 88
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Yeah it is classic Jay. I've read enough of his posts to spot it and truth be told I was waiting for it. But he's technical and show me any technical person that doesn't firmly believe he's infallible and that's it's all "User Error" and I'll show you a sandwich slicer at Subway.
Oh well. I'm actually heading out with the kids right now to to increase my gym rat status and I'm ever hopeful my wife will run out of yard work projects soon so that I can drag everyone into the hills (with an experienced climber of course).
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vawallflower
May 29, 2009, 3:11 PM
Post #84 of 88
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Great information, I have been studying belay techniques quite a bit in order to be the best belay slave on the planet. This is the best post I've found so far. My master will be pleased!
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desertwanderer81
May 29, 2009, 8:10 PM
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[quote "jt512"][quote]thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah' they built a belay loop for a reason, and i'm sure they named it the BELAY LOOP for a reason too!! as far as always stand while belaying, thats not that big of a deal i think, except right at the start of a climb, other than that, as long as your paying attention and can belay just as well, go ahead and sit.[/quote]
Can you dynamically belay while seated? With a grigri? Can you dodge a falling rock while seated? I think it's a really big deal.
-Jay[/quote]
You can dodge rock fall and dynamically belay at a belay station on the second+ pitch of a climb?
You really are a climbing god ;)
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jt512
May 29, 2009, 8:14 PM
Post #86 of 88
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desertwanderer81 wrote: [quote "jt512"][quote]thank you SO much for #6, i dont' know how many times i see people i know putting the 'biner through the tie in points, they say 'it'll be stronger, there's more of it there, blah blah blah' they built a belay loop for a reason, and i'm sure they named it the BELAY LOOP for a reason too!! as far as always stand while belaying, thats not that big of a deal i think, except right at the start of a climb, other than that, as long as your paying attention and can belay just as well, go ahead and sit.[/quote] Can you dynamically belay while seated? With a grigri? Can you dodge a falling rock while seated? I think it's a really big deal. -Jay[/quote] You can dodge rock fall and dynamically belay at a belay station on the second+ pitch of a climb? You really are a climbing god ;)
Well, I can dynamically belay at a belay station on the "second+" pitch of a climb, so I guess I'm just a demigod.
Jay
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desertwanderer81
May 29, 2009, 8:39 PM
Post #87 of 88
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If I am on a gear belay station, I personally try not to move around too much so the cams don't walk....plus half the time depending on where you're climbing, you can't even see your climber :p
I am entirely open to the idea however that I am not moving out of ignorance.
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jt512
May 29, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #88 of 88
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desertwanderer81 wrote: If I am on a gear belay station, I personally try not to move around too much so the cams don't walk....plus half the time depending on where you're climbing, you can't even see your climber :p I am entirely open to the idea however that I am not moving out of ignorance.
You neither need to be able to see your partner nor move around to give a dynamic belay.
Jay
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