Alot of people on this site talk bad about back-clipping. What is back-clipping and how do I avoid it?

Its a sportard thing.

Hey thanks for nothing Curt. I might be somewhat new to this, but I do agree with the mass quanties of climbers who say that prejudice and cocky attitudes are greatly unwanted.

If your busy talking s--- about other styles then you've already lost the picture. Good luck finding it. Personnally, I'll continue to try any sport that comes my way.

Personnally, I'll continue to try any sport that comes my way.

Curt, no s--- ya dick. I know it has to do with sport - I didn't ask that. And your comment about me enjoying to be in the dark goes without saying to be your dumbest f---ing comment because if I didn't care and "enjoyed being in the dark" I WOULDN'T HAVE ASKED IN THE BEGINNER SECTION YA DICK!

Say what you want to curt, I'm done with you and I won't repond to your arrogance again.

im just curious to what going off to iraq has to do with sport climbing. just wondering

Wow curt.... you practicing to be the lox of rc.com or something?

Personnally, I'll continue to try any sport that comes my way.

Curt,

For someone to display such an attitude you should at least know what you are talking about instead of giving out dangerous mistruths.

Say you are 20 feet up a vertical splitter and you are using cams with just the attached slings and you backclip the 2nd cam. Then you fall and the rope unclips and you deck. Tell the EMTs "hey that couldn't happen, I'm a cool trad guy, not a sportard"

Not to mention back clipping is going to cause more rope movement to be transfered to your pro possibly dislodging it.

Stick to bouldering and spraying.

Its a sportard thing. Climb trad and you won't have to worry about it.

Your scenario will never ever happen

I know that even some trad climbs have bolts in areas where the route would otherwise be run out. Don't ask me which ones because I don't know offhand. So actually in both trad and sport you should be aware of back clipping.

It's interesting how this topic turned from a simple question about back clipping to a flame war of curt vs the world. Curt, it seems you have quite the arrogant attitute towards people who just want to learn. Usually arrogance and cockyness are associated with ignorant climbers who make mistakes and die.


Haha, I would completely back up glowering on debunking that one. In general when I hear people say "that will never happen" without giving data to back it up I assume are full of sh*t.


(edited to add some more bashing)

I guess I will just let you and dumbaaron continue to post meaningless drivel in this thread without interrupting you. It is actually kind of funny to watch the clueless leading the clueless like this. I haven't posted anything in this thread that is not factually accurate.

Also, it is clear dumdaaron did not care about learning anything. Had he responded to my original post with something other than vitriol, this thread may have gone in a slightly different (and more productive) direction.

I've been asked about this a few times recently, so I've drawn a diagram to hopefully explain it:

http://www.digitalface.co.uk/backclip.gif

I guess I will just let you and dumbaaron continue to post meaningless drivel in this thread without interrupting you. It is actually kind of funny to watch the clueless leading the clueless like this. I haven't posted anything in this thread that is not factually accurate. You simply don't have enough climbing experience to know the difference between reality and myth. Please continue to pretend like you do though--its funny.

Quote:
In almost all cases the gate on the bottom biner on the draw is oriented downward (opens in at the bottom of the gate, not top as shown).

Response:
I am not a trad expert, but from reading this site, I believe that many trad climbers do orient their biners so the gate opens in the upwards direction. The setup is "less" susceptible to back clipping and gate flutter problems (did I get this right?)

You could do this with sport draws too couldn't you ?
If you do flop the biner, is it 100% sure to stay in place?

That doesn't seem convincing enough.

Raymond

Your scenario will never ever happen. Perhaps you should stick to shuffleboard or backgammon since you clearly demonstrate that climbing is not your area af expertise. Oh, I guess you are fully qualified to whine on the internet though.

Curt

How about explaining how it would never happen or better yet post some pictures of you taking whippers on backclips? Put your money where your mouth is instead of throwing out baseless accusations you can't back up.

But more fundementally, while the whole back clip thing is good to know, IMO the risk is pretty insignificant and certainly one of the most overblown topics in sport climbing. Yes, sport climbing, because I have to chime in with Curt on this one as in trad climbing this is not an issue (real or imagined). I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.

man... people get offended easily...

But to all who got butthurt by Curt, once you realize he talks this way to everyone, you won't take it so personally.

I never thought my first post containing the word "sportard" would have received the caustic reply that it did from drumnaaron

"backclipping" primarily applies to sport climbing.

Simply put, people should not respond to things they know absolutely nothing about. And yes, it pisses me off when they do.

Changing sides now are we? The whole point of my post was that back clipping *can* apply to trad (in rare situations). Your first post did convey the idea that you "never have to worry about back clipping with trad" which is false.

I've only been climbing for a year, and I don't pretent to know everything, but I am far from a "clueless grommet".

I know this is really a terrible thing for me to do......but I just can't resist the compulsion.....

Maybe the original poster wasn't talking about back-clipping as you would think. I mean....if you look at the rope running behind his back on the profile pic, maybe that's what he meant by back-clipping....

(I am ready to receive my first mod warning now. Hanging my head in shame, but if you look closely, you might notice the tiniest little smirk on my face....)

Not true, Tim. I only talk to all clueless grommetts that way. :lol:

Curt

Oh s---. You talk to everyone that way. Do I have to dig up your debates with Bob D.? You guys should both go do the presidential debates instead of the current participants. At least it would be entertaining.

No fair. Those posts are in community and besides old fart trad climbers have the explicit right to trash one another with impunity. Its tradition.

Hey, it's not like there's anything wrong with it. Sack up ya tard.

Tards is right.

Curt

In order for the backclip to result in the rope unclipping from the carabiner, the carabiner must be held quite rigidly--at least so rigidly that it is easier for the rope to open that carabiner gate than it is for the biner to simply rotate.

This is more likely to occur on sport climbs than on trad climbs because the bolts (combined with short, stiff draws) provide much more of a rigid base for the carabiner to lever against. When trad climbing, the gear is normally a nut or cam with a somewhat flexible wire which provides a much less rigid base for the carabiner to lever against. Additionally longer more flexible runners are often used to clip trad gear.

But more fundementally, while the whole back clip thing is good to know, IMO the risk is pretty insignificant and certainly one of the most overblown topics in sport climbing. Yes, sport climbing, because I have to chime in with Curt on this one as in trad climbing this is not an issue (real or imagined). I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.

I have been climbing at a pretty high standard for over 25 years and Randy has been doing so for even longer, in addition to literally writing the books to climbing in southern California. I have never seen a rope unclip due to backclipping and nobody I know has ever seen this happen. So I suppose you can now tell both Randy and me that we are full of crap and we don't know what we are talking about because you read something different in a book somewhere. Get a clue.
Curt

On a related note, in trad (this question is for one of the guys who has been climbing more than a decade, of course) when you clip a piece that has a sling draw (say, 24 inch) and of course this sling can flip around as it will, won't you technically be back clipped fairly often, even if you clipped in the "proper" way?

First off with a fully extended 24 inch sling, don't worry about it. Curt is right that there needs to be resistance on the biner for the rope to be able to open the gate.

I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.

Its funny how you say I am right but you are still arguing with me about backclipping. Hilarious really. I think Randy Vogel summed it up best.

I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS?

Self-correcting market forces don't seem to be working in this thread, so allow me to give things a subtle nudge in the right direction:

I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS?

-Jay

Sorry, Jay but you are absolutely on the wrong side of this one.

Curt

Then I'm in good company, because every sport climber I've ever met, every carbiner manufacturer, every gym, and every climbing instruction book author, agrees with me: Backclipping is dangerous -- at least backclipping bolts is.

jt: We're talking about back clipping on trad, not sport.

The original question was not specific to trad, and some of you are arguing about trad while others are sticking to the subject generally.

Trad climbers tend to use longer, less stiff runners than sport climbers, which presumably reduces the danger of back-clipping, since in a fall, the back-clipped biner would be more likely to move out of the way when the rope hits it than for the gate to open. However, if you are using stiff draws on gear you should probably be just as careful not to back-clip as you are when sport climbing; and it should go without saying that if you are climbing above a bolt on a traditional climb, then you should avoid backclipping just as if it were a sport climb, especially since bolted trad climbs tend to be run out.

-Jay

Have you honestly ever seen this happen? I mean a backclipped carabiner coming detatched from a rope in a fall? I don't mean some third party story either--have you actually seen this happen in your 20 years of climbing? Because nobody I know has.
Curt

I haven't seen or heard of it happening, but the only reason for this, I believe, is that those who fall often -- ie, sport climbers -- don't back clip, and those who back clip -- ie, some long-time trad climbers -- don't fall often.

To me, the danger is obvious. You can easily picture how the rope could unclip if back clipped; indeed, as I said above, I've seen a situation in which I think the rope would most likely have unclipped, quite possibly from multiple biners, had the leader actually fallen. Furthermore, you can replicate the mechanism by just flicking a rope that has been backclipped across the the gate of a biner by hand. This danger is widely recognized, to the point, that essentially no sport climber backclips, and consequently there are no cases of unclipping to observe.

-Jay

I haven't seen or heard of it happening, but the only reason for this, I believe, is that those who fall often -- ie, sport climbers -- don't back clip, and those who back clip -- ie, some long-time trad climbers -- don't fall often.

To me, the danger is obvious. You can easily picture how the rope could unclip if back clipped; indeed, as I said above, I've seen a situation in which I think the rope would most likely have unclipped, quite possibly from multiple biners, had the leader actually fallen. Furthermore, you can replicate the mechanism by just flicking a rope that has been backclipped across the the gate of a biner by hand. This danger is widely recognized, to the point, that essentially no sport climber backclips, and consequently there are no cases of unclipping to observe.

-Jay

Well, the idea that nobody ever backclips--and that is why there are no reported instances of unclipping the rope in a backclipped fall is an interesting theory, but it is nothing more than that.

My theory is that people do backclip and fall frequently with no bad outcomes reported, because backclipping is really not such a big deal.

Curt

I haven't seen or heard of it happening, but the only reason for this, I believe, is that those who fall often -- ie, sport climbers -- don't back clip, and those who back clip -- ie, some long-time trad climbers -- don't fall often.

To me, the danger is obvious. You can easily picture how the rope could unclip if back clipped; indeed, as I said above, I've seen a situation in which I think the rope would most likely have unclipped, quite possibly from multiple biners, had the leader actually fallen. Furthermore, you can replicate the mechanism by just flicking a rope that has been backclipped across the the gate of a biner by hand. This danger is widely recognized, to the point, that essentially no sport climber backclips, and consequently there are no cases of unclipping to observe.

-Jay

Yes, except your theory is wrong on its face because it is a fact that people don't fall frequently onto backclipped bolts. That sport climbers don't backclip is not a theory. They don't.

-Jay

Nuh uh pal, you can't get away with that kind of assertion after all of the bullsh!t you ask of everyone else who makes any kind of statement: "Where is the proof Buddy?" Show me the research, and I'm not talking about a "how to" book, I want multiple examples of PUBLISHED PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL ARTICLES! Otherwise by your own standards we can safely assume that you are talking crap. After all, that seems to be the only way you will accept any information from anyone else.

Or is it one standard for JT and another for everyone else?

I am inclined to disagree with your assertion here since many n00bs, fresh out of the gym, do go sport climbing without having any real idea what they are doing. And--they do fall, without even knowing what the hell a "backclip" is.

You, yourself have posted about observing such n00bs in action many times.

I think the truth is that the living room party trick where you unclip a rope from a carabiner held firmly in your hand does not represent what happens in the real world of climbing.

Gentlemen, lets explore this issue with our heart of hearts.

You are stranded on a desert island.

But you are not alone.

A lovely boulderer chickey (from boulder, but importantly incapable of speech due to whatever trauma, therefore still attractive) in a prana top is there with you.

AND She is hhhooootttt.

[snip]

FUCT climbers are advised to have their hospitalization insurance premiums paid-up, and will have to sign a waiver drafted by Allan Dershewitz.

I must now issue my most profound and final comment on the topic at hand.

Whatever.

Curt

I think after Kate's post, we can all go home.

-Jay

Dang, how did you escape from my killfile? Well, since you're out...

You want research? OK. Public notice: I'm hereby recruiting volunteer subjects for the First UnClipping Trial ever conducted in a scientifically rigorous manner. The FUCT will be a single-blind trial of the relative danger of back-clipping vs. normal clipping. 1000 climbers will each take 100 falls from various pre-detemined heights above a bolt under controlled conditions. On each fall the bolt will either have been pre-clipped normally or back-clipped by study personnel. The bolt will be hidden from view from the climber by a custom device so that the FUCT climber cannot alter his fall in response to whether the bolt is backclipped or normally clipped. FUCT climbers are advised to have their hospitalization insurance premiums paid-up, and will have to sign a waiver drafted by Allan Dershewitz.

So, Ajclay, are you ready to volunteer to be one of the FUCT climbers? It's for a good cause.

-Jay

Well, you obviously have not paid any attention to the way they test gear have you? Are you asking me and everyone else to believe that they test ropes for fall ratings by dropping people? Idiot!

No tests published = JT full of sh!t

It's your standard buddy, so provide some evidence or STFU!

Funny how you would come up with a FUCT Trial, did that come from your head? I always thought you were FUCT in the Head! :lol:

Well, you obviously have not paid any attention to the way they test gear have you? Are you asking me and everyone else to believe that they test ropes for fall ratings by dropping people? Idiot!

Backclipping is the sport climbing name for a longstanding TRAD rule. (agreed that it is rarely an issue on modern trad climbing, except for slab)

The rule originated with single biner clips to a pin. If you backclip, you can pinch the rope between the biner and the rock. Or you can allow the rope to bind in a loop around the body of the carabiner. Unclipping didn't become much of an issue until the advent of bent gate biners.

Well, you obviously have not paid any attention to the way they test gear have you? Are you asking me and everyone else to believe that they test ropes for fall ratings by dropping people? Idiot!

No tests published = JT full of sh!t

It's your standard buddy, so provide some evidence or STFU!

and left the keg way up there unattended by itself....