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You know what really chaps my a$$
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akicebum


Nov 8, 2004, 11:06 PM
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You know what really chaps my a$$
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I climb with a good group of guys, and this dude showed up and started climbing with us a couple of months ago. Strong sport climber, big shiny trad rack and an absolute refusal to use. Around here we don't really have any beta for routes, it is pretty much just adventure climbing. This guy is an overly experienced climber, that is too chickensh*t to try anything interesting.
This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing. What happened to climbing for the adventure, the rush of the unknown. On every piece of equipment we buy it says "climbing is inherently dangerous." Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.
I have made a point of taking newbies trad climbing before sport climbing so they can feel the difference in freedom. To me it is mind altering. I just thought I would vent for a moment. Let me know if any of you have experience this phenomena.


slobmonster


Nov 8, 2004, 11:11 PM
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I am in complete agreement with you, as I read your post from the public computer in the climbing gym, in between sets.


themeanieokc


Nov 8, 2004, 11:14 PM
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I agree. The more trad routes i do the less i want to go back to the gym or climb from bolt to bolt.


dingus


Nov 8, 2004, 11:16 PM
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dmt


caughtinside


Nov 8, 2004, 11:19 PM
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He took my excuse and red pointed it!

:lol: :lol:
That happens to me all the time!


curt


Nov 8, 2004, 11:19 PM
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You been climbing with Herb, Dingus?

Curt


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Nov 8, 2004, 11:20 PM
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So many climbers, so few mentors = gym is the mentor. FIRST climb outdoors on real rock THEN go to the gym...

Same problem on the street. So many kids, so few dads (present) = kids mentor each other. Not good...


dingus


Nov 8, 2004, 11:26 PM
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You been climbing with Herb, Dingus?

Curt

I prefer climbing with herb to that 25 year old scotch you rave about.

OH! You meant Herb! Nope.

John is his name.

Haha.

DMT


pepsbandit


Nov 8, 2004, 11:35 PM
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I climb in the Gym during the week, but live for the good outdoors during the weekend. What are ya gonna do? I don't even own a car!


Owell, good post
cheers


pylonhead


Nov 8, 2004, 11:38 PM
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Some people are different than me. They like other things than I do. It's not they way I think climbing should be. Everyone should appreciate the same things I do.

Sure man.


Partner xclimber


Nov 9, 2004, 2:10 AM
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Go climb some good multi-pitch and offer to do all the leading. He'll either get interested, or feel like he's a ball and chain. At some point he'll probably offer to lead some of it...

Or, don't climb with the guy.

x


theflyingsquirrel


Nov 9, 2004, 2:45 AM
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i climb in a gym cus thats all i can do but there is nothin more in my life that i'd like than to have a trad rack an climb trad.... that an free soloing of coarse and whats so bad about herb huh


clausti


Nov 9, 2004, 3:02 AM
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So many climbers, so few mentors = gym is the mentor. FIRST climb outdoors on real rock THEN go to the gym...

Same problem on the street. So many kids, so few dads (present) = kids mentor each other. Not good...



Some of us didnt have the option to climb outdoors first. Some of us found even gym climbing as sanity in a town at basically at sea level as teenagers [which some of us still are.] Some of us had overprotective parents in high school who would barely let us climb at the gym let alone drive 6 ish hours to spend the weekend in the woods rock climbing with a bunch of individuals old enough to buy alchohol.

Some of us love the rock as sport climbers. Love it even though we've never been more than 90 feet off the ground doing it. Love it no matter how much we get ragged by the trad climbers. We in turn rag the boulderers. whilest we boulder.

akicebum wrote:
Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.



Admiring my genital fortitude at the "danger" I've been through is not really why I climb. Maybe sport climbing isn't as inherently dangerous as trad climbing; I'm not that knowledgable about the latter as I do not trad.

But climbing is also fluidity. It is balance and engergy. I can freak out that there is a spider, but I dont kill him, 'cause he and I are climbing the same rock. Which, by the way smells the same in the sunshine next to my bolt as your cam.

When I climbed in the gym and touched the ceiling I had done something every time that I hadn't thought I could do. And I don't think that rips the heart out of anything. When I set my draws to lead a sport route I'm still scared every time- till I leave the ground. And then it flows.

But I don't think it would flow if I was trying to bushwhack my way up some unknown "adventure climb." I'm glad that that does it for you. Maybe someday I'll be in that place. Just because this dude isn't in the same place as you doesn't mean he's less than you or that he's torn the heart out of anything.

Recognizing one's one limits should not be referred to as "a$$chapping" or "chickensh*t." Thank you all for reading this.


deschamps1000


Nov 9, 2004, 3:09 AM
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This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Nope, it hasn't. It has simply introduced more people to the sport that never discover the soul behind the sport. The heart of climbing is still alive and strong in myself, you, and plenty of other people out there. Honestly, it'd be nice if everyone discovered that side of the sport, but what they experience or don't experience doesn't change my attitude in the least.
Of course, it helps to have partners that feel the same way...


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 3:31 AM
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*Some of us love the rock as sport climbers. Love it even though we've never been more than 90 feet off the ground doing it. Love it no matter how much we get ragged by the trad climbers.*

The people who bolted the sport routes you do are, probably, old-school trad climbers, who recognized long ago that sport climbing is the logical extension of what we did back in the 70's. Most of the guys I sport climb with on a weekly basis are way gnarly late-40-something big-wall veterans who appreciate sport climbing for what it is. Trad climbers who clown on sport climbing usually have paltry climbing resumes, are pathetically insecure, and have little or no real depth in the climbing world. The best trad climbers in the world are sport climbers.

But you still gotta buy a rack, learn how to use it, and work your way through the grades to call yourself a climber. I had to paid my dues, so you do, too. Sorry...


spikeyhair13


Nov 9, 2004, 3:43 AM
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I wouldnt say that the gym dosnt have adventure, BUT it isnt as great as outside. I agree with u, but not entirely. I say there is more adventure outside. but in a gym, an new route is exciting. Yes beta comes easily, but it still seems exciting to me.


clausti


Nov 9, 2004, 3:53 AM
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edit: delete.


climbhoser


Nov 9, 2004, 4:00 AM
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I'm sorry, it isn't the dedication to the sport or the value of the outdoors or anything of that kind that makes trad climbing superior. It;s the FREEDOM!!! It's the ADVENTURE!!!

It's the perfection. It's about being 500 feet off the deck and the only thing keeping you from going all the way down is YOU, not a fat, shiny bolt conveniently placed next to the chalky holds you're following.

It can't be explained, it can only be experienced...and yes, akiceclimber, it is mind altering.

I remember the first big multi-pitch trad climb I ever did. I had the unfortunate position of being a leader who didn't know how to lead (please nix any smack talk about how I'm lucky to have lived...what I placed I placed well, it just woulda been an ugly fall, not lethal). I almost shat myself...my friend did...I realized I was in WAAAAY over my head, and all I wanted was more. T'aint nothing like chilling out at a hanging belay halfway up the Redgarden wall looking around like a bird.


climbsomething


Nov 9, 2004, 4:03 AM
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Hmm... does akicebum get an award for being a mostly-coherent whiner, or for being a good troll? (trads bashing gym and sport climbers... tried but true)


Partner coldclimb


Nov 9, 2004, 4:04 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Nope, it hasn't. It has simply introduced more people to the sport that never discover the soul behind the sport. The heart of climbing is still alive and strong in myself, you, and plenty of other people out there. Honestly, it'd be nice if everyone discovered that side of the sport, but what they experience or don't experience doesn't change my attitude in the least.
Of course, it helps to have partners that feel the same way...

Word. It hasn't eliminated the old schoolers who live to climb, it's just brought in a lot more who don't, that's all. :)


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 4:17 AM
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*thats absolute drivel. and further more its bullshi*t. I don't have to do *anything* to "[earn] to call yourself a climber."

who the bloody hell are you to tell me if I can or cannot call myself a climber. I think you need a gut check.*

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber. There's a difference between somebody who "goes climbing" and being a climber. The ability to hit a nail with a hammer, no matter how artfully or with how much force, does not make you a carpenter. Yours truly sport climbs every weekend and wouldn't dream of wedging his extremities in a crack anymore, but only because I'm old and it hurts too much. You've gotta be versatile in 2 or more aspects (sport, trad, aid, alpine) to be legit, and no, bouldering doesn't count.

Sometimes having fun isn't fun. You'll see.


jakedatc


Nov 9, 2004, 4:18 AM
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Christina that was well written.. and i agree fully

being a sport climber the majority of the year i've found myself getting stronger, smoother, and more confident on the rock. During the Fall i boulder most of the time since i have no body fat and will freeze to death doing multi pitch in these temps :) so i build power, friendships and work on moves that will come up on sport and trad routes but with the convenience of being 5 feet off the ground to max out the number of times i can repeat them.

I also follow and lead trad, i have not been doing it very long so my gear skills are not the greatest. However :comma: when i cannot find the right piece right away or need to climb further to find a better placement i resort back to my climbing strengths to either lock off and find the right gear or power through a section and get a good stance

It seems that the trad climbers that think they are holier than thou with their "when in doubt run it out.. back in da day" effing attitude are narrow minded climbers that dont accept the growth of the sport and are trying to hold onto a vision like grandparents talking about how they didnt have TV and cars and shit. Saying Trad climbing is the only way to go is like saying that you should leave that mountain bike a Rigid.. forget all that suspension and then try to take to those downhills with as much speed and balls you do now.. haha sure the mtn bikes now look like motorcyles with pedals but they also go down some scary hard shit that the old school guys always looked at and said it couldnt be done
go lead Livin' astro trad, Jaws trad.. come on it's a project again.. show some of those guts and glory for the FA, Realization trad.. those pockets are kinda small for tricams eh?
there are thousands of routes around the world that would be left unclimbed without bolts.. how sad would that be

Personally, when i have the choice i'd rather be sport climbing. I like to climb hard stuff and i like to climb alot of routes. But i do keep things in perspective by bouldering and climbing trad. I believe in the complete package.. i may be able to sport climb well.. but i'd like to know if i went somewhere without it i'd be able to trad climb decent enough

gyms are here and are going to stay. they either breed hard climbing young kids that will get outdoors and climb sport and trad(eventually) or the kids that have no desire to go outside will stay in the gym and not bother you on your precious classic. They are a great training and teaching tool..

Accept change or be left behind


curt


Nov 9, 2004, 4:25 AM
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*thats absolute drivel. and further more its bullshi*t. I don't have to do *anything* to "[earn] to call yourself a climber."

who the bloody hell are you to tell me if I can or cannot call myself a climber. I think you need a gut check.*

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber. There's a difference between somebody who "goes climbing" and being a climber. The ability to hit a nail with a hammer, no matter how artfully or with how much force, does not make you a carpenter. Yours truly sport climbs every weekend and wouldn't dream of wedging his extremities in a crack anymore, but only because I'm old and it hurts too much. You've gotta be versatile in 2 or more aspects (sport, trad, aid, alpine) to be legit, and no, bouldering doesn't count.

Sometimes having fun isn't fun. You'll see.

Bouldering doesn't count only because you suck at it. Or, feel free to call BS on me and come bouldering some time.

Curt


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 4:31 AM
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*Bouldering doesn't count only because you suck at it.*

I suck at it - but it still doesn't count.


jakedatc


Nov 9, 2004, 4:32 AM
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kalc you may have been there and done that... but these gym rats will be climbing circle around you on trad, sport, aid, bouldering and ice because they've :
started younger
had coaching
had more and better training
climb year round
have old trad mentors that accept change and see the future of climbing in the children they coach's hands

if you wanna be fucking old school and bad throw out those cams, light wire gate biners, spectra, off sets, 8.0 double ropes , forget those nice shooes with the sticky rubber, comfy harness

rack up some pitons and steel ovals and go to fucking town
for fuckssake you're so bad ass it's amazing

take ur trad rack to Rumney and hop on anything at Waimea, take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up

yes i can get up some stuff at a trad cliff.. can YOU get up anything at certain sport walls? i forget which place but it's like if you dont lead 5.11c dont both going
sure i cant jam for the life of me... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?


clausti


Nov 9, 2004, 4:43 AM
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edit: delete.


chitowngirl


Nov 9, 2004, 4:48 AM
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I can see why you all feel the way do you about sports climbing, but really, I wouldn't be a climber without the gym. Someone like me, who never knew anybody who climbed, and who lives in the city, a city not exactly surrounded by lots of places to climb, never had really any way to get into trad. climbing. I spotted an indoor rock wall in vegas and thought that since I like to hike and camp, shouldn't I take it to the next level? So, I came back to Chi-town, found a gym, and have been crazy about climbing ever since. So, I am grateful for sports-climbing and indoor gyms. I have only once done trad. climbing - mostly because I am new to the sport and don't know how to set up anchors, etc., nor do I really have a partner who could go with me who knows how to do those things either. It's not like you trad. climbers are wandering around my neighborhood waiting to teach us newbies all that you know. And, it's especially hard to get into trad. climbing when you trad. climbers have an attitude about those of us who have only been in the gym. I keep hoping to meet somebody who'll take me out to some crag somewhere and show me the ropes, so to speak, but it never happens. I am hoping that this site will improve my chances.


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 4:51 AM
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*take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up*

this is fun...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12071


cjstudent


Nov 9, 2004, 4:55 AM
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If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me. If u want to sport climb, go for it. It doens't bother me if people want to sport climb and call themselves climbers, for one...that means there will be less people at the trad crag. Also there are alot of things that make up a climber...doing it the trad way isn't the final hurdle to jump through to gain the status of "climber"

In reply to:
There's a difference between somebody who "goes climbing" and being a climber.

That is true. There are people on this earth who have gone trad climbing a few times, and may occassionaly go...but are they climbers? They don't devote themselves to the sport totally. They may have never given a dime to help the cause of climbers, they may litter, and they might have never spent a second at an adopt a crag day. To me, the way that some sport climbers totally eat up the time they get to spend with the rock establishes themselves among the ranks of "climbers". My mom and dad have both "gone climbing". They are not climbers however. Although I don't really care if I am in the esteemed "climber" stigma myself. I just like climbing, trad or sport, and nothing else matters.


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 5:03 AM
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*And, it's especially hard to get into trad. climbing when you trad. climbers have an attitude about those of us who have only been in the gym. I keep hoping to meet somebody who'll take me out to some crag somewhere and show me the ropes, so to speak, but it never happens. I am hoping that this site will improve my chances.*

no one taught me anything - there were no other climbers at my high school, I put thousands of miles on the Greyhound bus before I was 18 years old, I would show up by myself at the crags and sometimes someone would climb with me, sometimes not...if you want it bad enough you don't make excuses.


curt


Nov 9, 2004, 5:21 AM
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no one taught me anything -

Indeed. Nor have you learned anything.

Curt


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 5:28 AM
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*Indeed. Nor have you learned anything.*

Poser, you ain't paid 10 minutes worth of dues - shut the fucck up>


clausti


Nov 9, 2004, 5:32 AM
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edit: delete.


jakedatc


Nov 9, 2004, 5:34 AM
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*take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up*
this is fun...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12071

Yep.. how many pieces of gear did you place... nice of those bolts to be there huh?

In reply to:
There are people on this earth who have gone trad climbing a few times, and may occassionaly go...but are they climbers? They don't devote themselves to the sport totally

I have a feeling that Dave graham devotes quite a bit of his life to the sport, but from what i know probably climbs 75% sport and bouldering
but he's not a climber.. just in the top 5 in the world..
Lisa Rands almost exclusively boulders.. but devotes her life to climbing... top 5 female climbers


Partner climbinginchico


Nov 9, 2004, 5:35 AM
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[*poseur, *haven't, *f---]

Our buddy kal gets noticeably drunker and less articulate with each posting. I propose a moment of silence for the passing of his intellect, and a round of applause for his extreme specialness.

Join me now, freinds.

OWNED


jookyhead


Nov 9, 2004, 5:43 AM
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I had quite a few witty comments rattling around in my head that were ready to be contributed to this thread, but as I type, I realize that I'm ready to go to bed. So I'll settle for a stfu kalcario. Goodnight.


bluetrout


Nov 9, 2004, 5:55 AM
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This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing. What happened to climbing for the adventure, the rush of the unknown. On every piece of equipment we buy it says "climbing is inherently dangerous." Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.
I have made a point of taking newbies trad climbing before sport climbing so they can feel the difference in freedom. To me it is mind altering. I just thought I would vent for a moment. Let me know if any of you have experience this phenomena.

That is why I like alpine so much.


curt


Nov 9, 2004, 5:57 AM
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*Indeed. Nor have you learned anything.*

Poser, you ain't paid 10 minutes worth of dues - shut the fucck up>

Joe buddy, I have lead trad climbs you would have shit yourself on. You are merely a delusional sport homo who wants so desperately to believe that you are (or were) a real rock climber of any merit. Well, its your dream, pal--make it as big as you want.

By the way, why did all the JT locals call you "homo joe" back in the day? I never heard your side of the story.

Curt


powen


Nov 9, 2004, 6:17 AM
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End the stupid debate:

climber

\Climb"er\, n. One who, or that which, climbs: (a) (Bot.) A plant that climbs. (b) (Zo["o]l.) A bird that climbs, as a woodpecker or a parrot.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


Mind you, this definition is from dictionary.com... Nowhere do I see, learn how to play with your nuts, master the alpine realm, lead 5.14 sport, boulder V-Crazy, hike up an f'ing tree... I also didn't notice anywhere it said that only climbing outside is real climbing... It's ALL f'ing climbing; indoor or outdoors.

That also doesn't mean you can't enjoy your particular brand of climbing more than another. Nobody except property owners are stopping you. Nor is the "fat old tradster" or the young punk hanging out in the gym. So go out, and do whatever floats your boat...

And (yawn) the debate is getting old...


kalcario


Nov 9, 2004, 6:20 AM
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*So I'll settle for a stfu kalcario. Goodnight.*


ok, I'm out, g'nite.

...buurp


sharpender


Nov 9, 2004, 6:26 AM
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there are thousands of routes around the world that would be left unclimbed without bolts..

And there are thousands of sport routes that would have gone ground up except some weenie had to rap bolt it so it could be "fun" for everybody to climb. Basically, this sport climber stole a first ascent. In the process he denied all the following parties the chance to learn how to climb trad. Cause not all trad is cracks. Climbers need to learn how to climb to a stance from which to protect and many times that is well more than 6' from the last bolt. This skill and experience is being lost in this generation.


clausti


Nov 9, 2004, 6:30 AM
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edit: delete.


powen


Nov 9, 2004, 6:43 AM
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ok, just for a fun change of pace...

What can you protect that isn't a crack? or nice, deep pockets?

Horns, trees, ice, snow and really fat women.


curt


Nov 9, 2004, 6:44 AM
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ok, just for a fun change of pace...

What can you protect that isn't a crack? or nice, deep pockets?

Pocket protectors are good. They keep ink stains from getting on your shirt.

Curt


climbsomething


Nov 9, 2004, 7:37 AM
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Hmm. I'm taking the troll award away from the OP and giving it to kalcario!


cantbuymefriends


Nov 9, 2004, 8:25 AM
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Jeebez! Everybody's so stuck up about who is and who is not allowed to wear the shiny "Real Climber(tm) Badge"...

If someone asks me, I don't say "I am a climber", I just say "I climb".
I scale rocks, (small) mountain walls, frozen icefalls, and, yes, plastic-enhanced plywood (The Horror! The Horror!) :lol:

And, if what I do, eats at your a$$ and takes away YOUR experience. Well, that's just something you have to deal with, right? Because I'm gonna climb what, where and how I want, and there's not a doggarn thing you can do about it. Aaaah, ain't life great!


bouldering_fool


Nov 9, 2004, 9:17 AM
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reading this thread makes me not want to climb.


viciado


Nov 9, 2004, 9:54 AM
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Don't stop climbing, just stop calling yourself a climber...

My grandmother used to say "You can call me anything you want but late for supper." The saying may be overused, but I think she was right.


corpse


Nov 9, 2004, 1:23 PM
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I think I'll just call myself a wannabe climber, this way the only way to go is up :)


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:36 PM
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It seems that the trad climbers that think they are holier than thou with their "when in doubt run it out.. back in da day" effing attitude are narrow minded climbers that dont accept the growth of the sport and are trying to hold onto a vision like grandparents talking about how they didnt have TV and cars and s---.

Who? Who are you talking about? Cause I don't see it. In fact, it is my opinion that the vast majority of trad-itudes are voiced by those who have less than 10 years in the sport. They aren't old school anything.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:40 PM
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kalc you may have been there and done that... ... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?

Yeal Kalcario, how do you get your fat trad ass up all those 5.13's?

Can you put some of it in a bottle and send it to me?

Then maybe I could get my fat trad ass up some 5.13's!

Cept it don't work that way. The goddamned bottle is TOO BIG TO SEND IN THE MAIL.

DMT


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:53 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Basically, this sport climber stole a first ascent.
This is America, where being first is EVERYTHING.

Set the alarm clock next time.

DMT


yanqui


Nov 9, 2004, 5:23 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT

Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at.

Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago.

Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second.

But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.


sharpender


Nov 9, 2004, 5:48 PM
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Dingus wrote:
In reply to:
sharpender wrote:
Basically, this sport climber stole a first ascent.
This is America, where being first is EVERYTHING.

Set the alarm clock next time.

I rest my case. So cheating counts for you? Cause if being first is EVERYTHING integrity means nothing, testing your limits means nothing and your posting this shows that you obviously don't even know what I'm talking about in climbing. Sad.

Head on down to Suicide and climb some of the fine 10 and 11 face climbs and when you clip those bolts - many of them thirty or so feet out - think about the first ascent party putting those in by hand on the lead.


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 5:59 PM
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I rest my case. So cheating counts for you? Cause if being first is EVERYTHING integrity means nothing, testing your limits means nothing and your posting this shows that you obviously don't even know what I'm talking about in climbing. Sad.

I don't cheat. But you don't define my rules.

I test my limits. My limits are none of your business.

And I get out of bed early, thus gaining first dibs on whatever it is I wish to do. You show up at noon and complain I stole your line, I'll play the world's smallest violin for you, something sappy like "My Heart Bleeds for YOU!"

But no, I obviously don't know what you are talking about. Some divine right to virgin rock, as best I can tell.

DMT


sarcat


Nov 9, 2004, 6:15 PM
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Some divine right to virgin rock,

Isn't this where most arguments start between the disciplines?


Partner taualum23


Nov 9, 2004, 6:26 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.


Damn! Well, said, friend.

Why has no one else said it this well. Push the boundries, man. Not the rock's, not the sport's, but YOURS.


Partner drector


Nov 9, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I was going to post a simple statement: Climbers are arogant jerks. Then I read the post by Yanqui and realized that only some climbers are arogant jerks. I am happily surprised that some climbers have humility, compassion, understanding, and courage to accept that others can acheive cosmic bliss while taking a different path in life and in climbing.

I am a real climber. I climb. That's all you need to know.

Dave


on_sight_man


Nov 9, 2004, 6:46 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Three of the best paragraphs on the issue I've read.


climb_plastic


Nov 9, 2004, 6:47 PM
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This guy is an overly experienced climber, that is too chickensh*t to try anything interesting.....I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Totally unrelated. Most trad climbers I talk to don't climb greater than 5.10. Has nothing to do with their gym climb...In fact if they didn't go to gym they'd probably climb 5.8 outdoors.


caughtinside


Nov 9, 2004, 6:49 PM
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Absolute classic thread! :P

Kalcario trolling the sport climbers was priceless. Seconding things I hung draws on, ho ho! :lol:

However, all comedy aside he was right about 2 things.

1. Bouldering doesn't count.
2. Sometimes fun isn't fun.

*In my experience, #2 usually involves a multipitch, darkness, inclement weather, a lousy partner, a narrow escape, or any combination of these factors. You won't find it bouldering, or even single pitch sporting.

**I am a sport climber. 8^)


leinosaur


Nov 9, 2004, 7:25 PM
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But climbing is also fluidity. It is balance and engergy. I can freak out that there is a spider, but I dont kill him, 'cause he and I are climbing the same rock. Which, by the way smells the same in the sunshine next to my bolt as your cam.

Still my favorite paragraph here . . . but it has gotten interesting, no?

clamber on, y'all!


mutant


Nov 9, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Blah blah blah bla blah! (yawwwnnn)


akicebum


Nov 9, 2004, 8:06 PM
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WOW, talk about a response. Way more qualified individuals beat this topic to death years ago, I was just venting my frustration about the direction the majority of climber have taken. I do sport climb some, and boulder some. I climb on plastic cause it rains here 300 days a year. But I climb inside so that I can tackle sexy lines, not so that I can pump .13. Mountains and big stone are all about the unknown and the adventure aspect of climbing.
I wrote that last note, because I have noticed most climbers look for the biggest safety net. I'm just frustrated because it has been hard to find more partners as many of mine are getting married and a few are having kids. Its like being single again and having to go through sh*tty dating ritual. Belay slaves are fun, but a good partner is irreplaceable as I am finding out.
And for all of you die hard opinionated sport junkies, if your having fun, good. But if you pose up like some badass trad climber and go out with me and puss out in front of a 90 degree splitter crack cause you don't have a topo you had better have your helmet on cause I will go Ape.


angelaa


Nov 9, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Belay slaves are fun, but a good partner is irreplaceable

Beautiful! :D

I am actually surprised at how civil this post has been!

I primarily trad climb, and I do it for the adventure of it - All the Way!

I don't care if your climbing 5.12 - - my 5.7 is over 14,000 feet!!! :wink:


brianthew


Nov 9, 2004, 9:06 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? .....

......And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Awesome. These are the best words I have ever read on this site. That post should submitted as an article.


chronicle


Nov 9, 2004, 11:19 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? .....

......And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Awesome. These are the best words I have ever read on this site. That post should submitted as an article.

I second that. What yanqui wrote inspired me. That was the best post I've ever read.


curt


Nov 10, 2004, 5:37 AM
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If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT

Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at.

Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago.

Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second.

But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.

That is really a great post, Tim--except for the part where you excuse Joe for being a dickhead.

Curt


slobmonster


Nov 10, 2004, 6:12 AM
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Its like being single again and having to go through sh*tty dating ritual.
Well, I solved the that 'problem' utilizing the internet.


areyoumydude


Nov 14, 2004, 10:35 PM
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By the way, why did all the JT locals call you "homo joe" back in the day? I never heard your side of the story.

Curt

OMFG now that makes sense. No wonder he hides behind his user name kalcario. "way homo Joe" you've been outed. Haha. Nobody liked you then......


crackrn


Dec 1, 2004, 4:10 AM
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[quote=clausti]When I climbed in the gym and touched the ceiling I had done something every time that I hadn't thought I could do. And I don't think that rips the heart out of anything. When I set my draws to lead a sport route I'm still scared every time- till I leave the ground. And then it flows.
Man, I wish I could rate posts today....I loved this paragraph. I've climbed in the gym, trad and sport and enjoy all of them for this very reason...the accomplishment of the top.


Partner f_thomas


Dec 1, 2004, 4:24 AM
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So like, man, I met this new climber. snip........................

So at least I can rest on my trad laurels, right?

NOT! Turns out he can out gun me trad as well. Been there, done that, partnered with the guide book author and was on many of the FA's.

So you know what really chaps my ass?

He's retired and 60+ years old.

Sorta blows all the tripe away, know what I mean? And I can't even complain I'm getting too old anymore! THAT is the true ass chapper. He took my excuse and red pointed it!

(actually he inspires me in so big a way I haven't found the words for it)

Cheers
DMT

We all need a challenge - not to compete, but to drive us to greater new personal heights! You are truly fortunate to have the opportunity to climb with this guy!

I'm no youngster myself - I refuse to give in or give up! My personal best is my personal best, I can't compare it to others without impacting my own effort for improvement!


glyrocks


Dec 3, 2004, 1:57 AM
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I think a bigger problem with the swarm of gym and sport climbers is the lack of appreciation for what placing your own pro means. Properly placed, trad gear is better than a bolt because you placed it and you know what it's capable of. However, I've seen a lot of guys get really strong leading bolted 12's and think that means a 5.9 or 5.10 trad lead is automatically well within their ability. Trad is different, ice is way different. You've just got to know how to place gear quickly and safely. I've seen so many people get hurt because they didn't work their way up from 6's and 7's where they could learn how to place gear, instead of just clip it.

I don't see gym climbing as destroying the heart of climbing as a whole. It would for me. I don't gym climb (I do clip bolts though) and I don't think gym climbing or bouldering is climbing. That's like owning a soccer ball that you can kick around your backyard and calling yourself a soccer player. Sure, you can kick a ball- maybe even all the way across your yard-- but you ain't a soccer player. I personally see trad and alpine as the essence of climbing, and bouldering and bolts as training, but I don't see a change of direction in popular climbing as destroying anything for me.


jakedatc


Dec 3, 2004, 5:38 PM
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gly you were doing good until you discounted types of climbing that you admittingly don't do...
Bouldering has grown FAR from the old days of it just being training. Some people gym climb to train.. others climb it because it is the best or most convenient they can find.. some people clip bolts because that is what the area calls for, or they do not have the money to invest in trad gear, or they simple *gasp* enjoy climbing and not having to worry about placing gear
what if YOU placed the bolts that you were climbing on? then would it be as good as you placing trad gear...

trying to rank styles shows a weakness in those areas that you can only justify to yourself by marking them as inferior

climb
1. To move upward on or mount, especially by using the hands and feet or the feet alone; ascend: climb a mountain; climbed the stairs.

v. intr.
1. To move oneself upward, especially by using the hands and feet.


Partner tim


Dec 3, 2004, 5:56 PM
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You been climbing with Herb, Dingus?

Herb fucking rules. I *wish* he was on here, then there would be someone for the kids to look up to ;-) . Art and I need to take him up on his offer to show us Patterson Bluffs (so we can get properly humbled no doubt). Herb is the MAN.


truffalatree


Dec 3, 2004, 7:07 PM
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Christina, Tim - I give you guys much praise for being able to say it like you feel.
I mean in reality... it's about passion -no?
for me. it's passion. that's my goal in life - i want to find passion. I happen to find it when I'm high up off the ground, looking out and seeing fifteen foot trees that look like they belong in my cousin's lego set, feeling the wind blow like it only blows on a belay ledge, smiling while my insides are shaking, looking up at the next pitch with my veins pumping and my legs twitching... that's my passion. I don't feel it indoors. I don't feel it when i'm climbing on plastic. But who cares! that's me... not anyone else.
I say that if you can find passion on little molds that are screwed into a mold - do it... or better yet if those little holds help you to get higher, to do higher climbs, better lines, tougher cracks... do it... find your passion and follow it - don't care what other people think - they can't get your blood going the way a good crack, or bolted line, or tough V8 or indoor 5.12 does... they just can't.
I understand where you all are coming from. It's easy to think that what we do, how we do it is the best way - the truest way - the real way. But how can you honestly knock how other people get off... it doesn't make them less of a person, nor does it make them less of a climber. it just doesn't make them you and there's nothing wrong with that.


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 8:09 PM
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Over here, we don't have any gyms, or sports climbs. Therefore the only ethic is trad (UK Ethics), and I've found because of learning outdoors, I didn't have any problems which many gym climbers have of getting outdoors and leading trad. That said I do sometimes wish there was indoor gyms over here so I could train, but when I've used them across, I've found them unsatisfying souless experiences, uncomparable to Trad outdoors.

I don't think bolt clipping outdoors would hold much joy for me either, and I personally think the idea of low grade sports climbs is ridiculous - sports climbing should take over where trad leaves off - in producing routes which would be impossible to lead trad style. (That said there is a debate about where exactly it becomes unsafe to lead trad, and is there a case for bolting climbs which could be lead by cutting edge trad climbers, but not by the majority of them. The other comment, often used is "You have a choice not to clip a bolt" - maybe this is true, but if a whole generation grows up clipping bolts, they are unlikely to stop doing so, and will have problems trad leading.

Certainly I do think to a certain extent, gym climbing does stifle, outdoor trad climbing, but it does encourage more people to climb. I think Trad should be the preferred style of ascent, as it makes less of a permanent impact on the landscape (now here comes the old erosion arguement re placements - what about the increased erosion from route use by sports climbers?), but then I would say that, being a dyed in the woll traddie wouldn't I?


numbnut


Dec 3, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Back to the original topic.

It sounds like your frustrated with a personality type not with the effect gym climbing has on the sport. Lotta great climbers stay fit climbing in the gym and then can go get it done outside on gear. :D


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 9:00 PM
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Fair enough, but some seem to see a barrier between getting outdoors, and then from then to placing their own gear. The only barrier I had to overcome was feeling confident in my own placements. If I'd had the barrier of getting outdoors, and getting into trad, then I think I'd be a lot less further down the road than I am now.


photon


Dec 3, 2004, 9:30 PM
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you know what really chaps my ass,

people who think the way they view climbing is the way everyone should view climbing.


jakedatc


Dec 3, 2004, 9:32 PM
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I personally think the idea of low grade sports climbs is ridiculous - sports climbing should take over where trad leaves off - in producing routes which would be impossible to lead trad style.

I think you have a very narrow view of the different types of rock around the world.. sure maybe all the rock in England can be protected trad.. but there is rock that is either too soft, formed differently etc that does not lend itself to safe trad placements.. there are even trad climbs that do not protect well enough for trad gear so they have bolts placed to make it safe

In reply to:
now here comes the old erosion arguement re placements - what about the increased erosion from route use by sports climbers?
Sport climbing will not cause more errosion than trad climbing.. how you would think that is beyond me. last time i checked the hands and shoes of trad climbers and sport climbers are about the same

:sigh: people need to broaden their outlook and see what else there is to climb


cgailey


Dec 3, 2004, 9:59 PM
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I view climbing like I view snowboarding. I started riding in 1988...well before the majority of the world knew what a snowboard was. I endured ridicule for years from my peers, as I chose to go down my own path and not to conform to what was "cool" (which happened to be skiing). I found myself laughing a few years later, in the mid 90's, when the first big snowboarding boom hit and all of the same people who made fun of me because of my passion for a less than popular sport started to ask me about it and treated me in a completely different light. What was the difference you ask? Snowboarding, like any other obscure sport, was becoming popular. It was all over MTV, and the punk rock "skiers suck" attitude prevailed among the posers and gapers.

Did this chap my hide...you bet. The sport I loved was becoming "popular"! Did it really change much for me? You bet! Snowboarding technology improved leaps and bounds and it became a booming business for my family. It also created problems like area closures to snowboarders and a general dislike by those with two pieces of wood on their feet.

I would dare to say that Climbing, albeit a much more established and older sport, has experienced the same type of attention. It's the "cool" thing to do, and you will be thought of as much more "extreme" if you participate. The unfortunate thing about this type of attention is that you get the same gapers and posers who have all the money and none of the true passion jumping in and "ruining" the sport.

So what do we do about it? Relax and let it go. Your angst about the retards in this world who are into the next hip thing will by no means change anything other than your blood pressure. Is their presence going to ruin part of the experience? You bet! We all know about the access issues and grid bolting, retro bolting, and overall lack of ethics demonstrated by those who are lacking a clue. This is bound to cause issues for the rest of us, but all we can do is sit back and watch, and hopefully lead by example.


akicebum


Dec 4, 2004, 5:01 AM
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My issue with gyms I guess has to do with grading. This is a valid point. There is a lot of attitude and posturing that goes on in the gym and I could care less. I can climb just as hard and often times harder than anyone else in the gym, but I don't have a posse of climbers that I sit around and talk crap about the other climbers that are there. That element is starting to show up and it is irritating. These guys climb hard inside and talk big but shrivel up on real rock.
I want someone who boasts that they can climb 13 inside to go to Yosemite and hit up a classic 9 chimney or a 10 offwidth. I am humble because I have been humbled. I don't pretend to be some ethical madman, but I am tired of these gym born climbers running their mouths 24/7 then no backing any of it up. I could care less what you "call" yourself, I climb because I like it. I climb sport, I climb in the gym, I boulder, I climb ice, I climb mixed, I climb alpine, I climb at altitude, I climb buildings, and I could care less what you want out of climbing. If you need a partner hit me up, I am not the pompous a$$hole I probably sound like. But if you start talking a bunch of crap about how tough you are, and I go out climbing with you and you ruin my day because you want to play climber I will be extremely pissed. If you just want to hang out and pump routes in the gym its cool I do that. But don't think that because you are tough sh*t in the gym that it means you are the same out doors. If you simply want to go and work easier routes I am down for that as well I like helping people out, just don't lie to me. It pisses me off.


Partner tattooed_climber


Dec 4, 2004, 6:28 AM
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I climb with a good group of guys, and this dude showed up and started climbing with us a couple of months ago. Strong sport climber, big shiny trad rack and an absolute refusal to use. Around here we don't really have any beta for routes, it is pretty much just adventure climbing. This guy is an overly experienced climber, that is too chickensh*t to try anything interesting.
This has made me start looking at climbing as a whole. I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing. What happened to climbing for the adventure, the rush of the unknown. On every piece of equipment we buy it says "climbing is inherently dangerous." Danger is adventure, adventure is why we climb.
I have made a point of taking newbies trad climbing before sport climbing so they can feel the difference in freedom. To me it is mind altering. I just thought I would vent for a moment. Let me know if any of you have experience this phenomena.

i'm with ya on that!!!!!!!

as a whole, i TOTALLY skipped sport!....seconding and leading!....went right into trad....after seconding trad for a while, i seconded sport=yawn

and after leading trad (still learning, then again we ALL are always learning something) i lead sport=meh

sport is a total focus on climbing....but trad is physical (like sport) as well as mental (worry about safety/pro/etc)....besides, its way cooler...trad with the ability to do some aid; that makes you have no limits......that whats cool....

no worrying about bolts...


clausti


Dec 4, 2004, 6:50 AM
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edit: delete.


glyrocks


Dec 4, 2004, 8:38 AM
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jakedatc- i wasn't trying to discount types of climbing for other people. I said quite specifically for me, gym climbing isn't really climbing and would destroy the heart of climbing for me. Maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I never said I have a problem with other people who do it. I should have just left that second paragraph out anyway, I guess I got carried away with rhetoric. Those are the reasons I started climbing sport routes. I spent this afternoon clipping bolts and will probably boulder tomorrow; but for me, it's just training for the real stuff now that I know what that is.

who gives a shit what we think anyway


cliffmonkey2003


Dec 4, 2004, 8:50 AM
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No, but does lip balm work for it? A friend of mine wants to know.


timstich


Dec 4, 2004, 2:30 PM
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The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport...

And becoming an all-arounder takes years just to get yourself out onto different stone. But the real secret is to become an all-arounder before you get all round. Ha ha ha! After that, you have to restrict yourself to alpine.

I still can't believe anyone seriously limits themselves to just one discipline of climbing, be it trad, bouldering, or sport, especially when they live in an area that offers a ton of options. That's like only eating sushi every day. Crazy talk! What of the blue cheese burgers?


allan_thomson


Dec 4, 2004, 4:36 PM
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In reply to:
I personally think the idea of low grade sports climbs is ridiculous - sports climbing should take over where trad leaves off - in producing routes which would be impossible to lead trad style.

"I think you have a very narrow view of the different types of rock around the world.. sure maybe all the rock in England can be protected trad.. but there is rock that is either too soft, formed differently etc that does not lend itself to safe trad placements.. there are even trad climbs that do not protect well enough for trad gear so they have bolts placed to make it safe"


Rather missing the point in my statement about producing routes which would be impossible to lead trad style aren't you. Think a little more about what people are saying. We do have Sandstone (which isn't deemed necessary to be bolted either) as well as Slate, Limestone and Basalt over here. Quite a lot of rock types in an Island 39 miles by 10 wouldn't you agree? I've also climbed on Gritstone in the UK, and on Plastic.

BTW I'm not in England. You have to get out of your head this American notion that everywhere in the British Isles is England. I actually live on an Island in the Irish sea, called the Isle of Man, which had its own government, laws, etc, but shares a common head of state with the UK (The Queen - the Lord of Man). The UK itself consists of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. So stop refering to England when you're talking about the British Isles.

In reply to:

In reply to:
now here comes the old erosion arguement re placements - what about the increased erosion from route use by sports climbers?

":Sport climbing will not cause more errosion than trad climbing.. how you would think that is beyond me. last time i checked the hands and shoes of trad climbers and sport climbers are about the same

sigh: people need to broaden their outlook and see what else there is to climb"

Wrong - sports climbing encourages greater traffic, + redpointing so therefore the erosion is much greater than a purely trad route + ethics. A lot more people feel able to climb on sports climbs (basically cos generally they've got these ideas into their heads that it's safer to climb on bolts than not. So the erosion arguement is valid. There may not be any difference in the hands and feet of Trad and sports climbers, but there is a difference in the amounts of people who climb sports and Trad. Plus Trad encourages a pure onsight ethic, whereas sports encourages greater numbers of punters to start scrabbling around slipping, and trying again numerous times all of which increases the wear on the rock.

Question is, if you only feel safe climbing on bolts all the time, are unprepared to take the rock as it is, and not placing gear, then really you should be considering whether you should have left the gym? Point Taken?


napoleon_in_rags


Dec 4, 2004, 6:09 PM
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Before I start, let me say this about myself. I am proud that I trad lead a 5.7 to 5.8, Sport lead a 5.9, and follow a 5.10. Just because you lead a 5.12c doesn't mean you have a bigger c##k. In fact, you brag about it as much as some of the people on this post probably means you are compensating for a small one.

I break climbing into two parts:
1) The Physical Part, the pure art of moving yourself up a wall. In this I think Sport and Trad are the same, with the Gym and Bouldering being lower because of the difficulty of developing endurance. Bouldering in some ways is more pure; it's concentrated climbing for just a few moves.

2) The science of climbing, a science of knots and building anchors and hardware and evaluating your placements. In this Trad trumps all. How many critical, life effecting decisions do you have to make on a single Pitch? How many sport/ gym climber and boulderers could not properly tie off to an anchor using a clovehitch with a gun placed against their head? Or do something more important like escaping a belay and rescuing an incapacitated climber.

To misquote Frank Herbert "The aim of all technology is to increase the number of things we can do without thinking. That's the real danger: doing things without thinking."

For the record, I Sport Climb and Boulder and go to my local gym. But I do it to prepare myself for Trad.


akicebum


Dec 4, 2004, 8:09 PM
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Holy hell this is a touchy subject. I climb in a gym, I climb a lot of sport, I am not saying that people suck for doing so. These are generally the only places where I have found this contingent. Alan Watts made Smith into an even better climbing area than it already was by bolting sport climbs. Look at Rifle, American Fork, Ceuse, these are all classic climbing areas, and yes all sport. I train in a gym, I pull more plastic than I do real rock because it rains 300 days a year here.
I am in no way bashing all people that choose to climb sport or indoor. My issue is with people lying. You put a lot of trust in a person when you let them belay you for a first time, or when you follow their lead. You trust that they will catch a fall and set up a good anchor. On a less dramatic note, when you have time to go climbing you want to actually climb. This is my issue I hope that it is clear. After 4 posts it is not, do not rope up and lay off the wacky-tabaky for a day or two.


jakedatc


Dec 5, 2004, 2:36 AM
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sorry.. the island you live on.. still there are rock types around the world that DO NOT take trad gear safely

errosion of the rock due to working a route as opposed to everyone onsiting it (which if it's a harder trad route then people will have to work and fall off it) .. is a valid reason for everything to be trad

In reply to:
Question is, if you only feel safe climbing on bolts all the time, are unprepared to take the rock as it is, and not placing gear, then really you should be considering whether you should have left the gym? Point Taken?
I've led trad.. i enjoy sport better.. personally i prefer to push my physical limits rather than my mental limits

Take some 10 year old kid that got shoes and a harness last year as a gift so that they could climb at the local gym. this year all he/she can save up with his paper route is 200 bucks to buy himself a new rope and 10 quickdraws and right now the only outdoor climbing is with their parents out to the the local crag which is sport bolted

take ur trad rhetoric and BS I'll take all the people that cant afford trad gear, do no have the mentors around to take up trad climbing safely, or just plain like clipping bolts instead of effing around with a rack of gear

will it ever go trad?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=36457
i dont think so... think of how many routes would be eliminated if Sport didnt exist..


allan_thomson


Dec 5, 2004, 2:39 PM
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In reply to:
i dont think so... think of how many routes would be eliminated if Sport didnt exist..

Fair enough, about the routes which can't be done trad, I accept that, that's a different matter. I did actually say that earlier. I'd agree with bolting them, in order to open up new routes. But......

You don't know what future developments might bring. Just because you can't see it with what we have now, doesn't mean it won't happen in future. Gear is improving all the time, and there are new innovations all the time. What's to say there won't be a bit of trad gear invented in future won't make it possible to lead that route? Is someone actually going to be safer on that route, just cos there's bolts anyway?

Also the question also comes, at what point should you start bolting? Do you start bolting over the top end trad routes currently E8/9 (USA -5.14c) or E10 (which is currently purely hypothetical)? Or do you start bolting when you reach the trad limit of Mr and Mrs/Miss average? How do you determine who they are? And should the opinions of the minority count for nothing, if they are cutting edge climbers? You accepted what I said about erosion from redpointing, this then begs the question, if this hypothetical cutting edge trad climber came to do the route, and parts had been worn off through redpointing on bolts, does that not then deny them the opportunity to do it trad? So there are problems with opening up new routes for everyone, if it damages those routes through overuse.

I don't accept the cheapness arguement (though I can understand your logic). If this 10 year old kid has just come straight out of a gym, they should be looking to climb with someone who has a bit more experience. Generally that person has gear. That's how I started (skipping the gym bit, as there is non over here), only buying my rack + ropes when I decided I was committed to the sport. Are you honestly saying it is justified to run bolts up say for example a moderate (USA 5.2) crack, just because some kid can't afford a few nuts? Does the kid being able to afford little make it justified for them to throw a top-rope down, and climb that way (meaning they don't have to buy the QD's- I know a few sports climbers on UKC who would disagree with TR-ing)?

As regards pushing your physical limits instead of your mental, surely having climbed trad yourself, you realise that trad not only pushes the mental, but the physical? It takes a heck of a lot to place good gear, while hanging on with one arm, totally pumped. Tell me now that is not pushing your physical limits.


(Great picture BTW, you look like you were pushing it hard there).


lockeyaaron


Dec 5, 2004, 4:44 PM
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I have been climbing now for 4 years. I have never been sport climbing, nor have I ever been to a climbing gym. I do believe that trad climbing is a more pure form of climbing, but I do not look down on people that soley sport or gym climb. I think that alot of the people that dont do trad would really like to but bc of reasons that are beyond their control they havnet been able to. We need to start a "Take a gym rat to the crag day" Everyone one of you out there go to your local gym, pick out a promising young climber and get to know them. After you have gotten to know them a little bit take them to the crag and show them the ropes so-to-speak. Maybe this will help with the lost heart in climbing.


jakedatc


Dec 5, 2004, 4:59 PM
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haha thanks for the unintentional complement but the picture is Dave graham on Realization/Biographie' (tho people say i have the same body composition, i am far from being that good)

In reply to:
hey should be looking to climb with someone who has a bit more experience. Generally that person has gear.

that is not always the case.. "how i got started" "how i learned to climb" "where i live" you need to think outside your own experience to realize what i'm trying to get across.. (btw.. you said you do not have sport routes over there so obviously an experienced person will have gear, i consider myself experienced enough to take out new people to sport crags but i do not have gear to take them trad climbing)

ive climbed bolted routes down to 5.2.. and no it wasnt a crack it was a blocky face that i dont recall there being many places for gear

by your argument back when they first started climbing folks should not have climbed anything because they had to pound pitons which can now be protected by nuts and cams? and also caused rock damage

In reply to:
if it damages those routes through overuse.

i still dont see how *damaging* people climbing a route really is- comparing the 2 styles... if a flake is going to eventually peel off or a foot hold break.. it will do so eventually no matter how it is climbed. Routes are put up to be climbed.. if it is so popular that it gets tons of traffic.. then the FAist should be proud they put up a sweet line.. not worry that it will get smoothed down to nothing (which it wont). bottom line mother nature will do more damage to a route over the winter with ice and cracking than any sport climber just working the route

Yes, trad is physical too, but not on the same terrain or same features that i like to climb on or the crag i usually climb at. If i took the time to learn how to place gear a) safely b) efficiently aka only have to reach for one piece instead of grabbing pieces that wont fit first then i believe i could climb gunks 5.10.. however when i climb sport routes i can find sweet overhanging aretes and roofs at 5.12 that inspire me much more and gives me that "i gotta climb that" feeling. Plus i do not see how sport climbing is not mental, when i'm totally pumped out.. hanging horizontal trying to make one hard clip (with the draw waving around and around like it always does when you need it not to be) the will to not let go is very important in sport climbing and bouldering and i've been working on that mental aspect and has improved my climbing

whatever.. i'm done arguing with you.. you've never sport climbed so you will not understand the differences or i guess the reasoning behind bolted routes


rockman_nh


Jan 28, 2005, 1:33 AM
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Go to Yosemite and climb one of the long climbs. When you are on the tenth or so pitch look down between your toes and behold. You will never get that thousand foot airy feeling in a gym. Or the long runout that cannot be avoided, the nerve checking fear that challenges your control of the knees and your pumped body parts are clinging and reaching for the next placement.
Amen


healyje


Jan 28, 2005, 11:01 AM
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In reply to:
... think of how many routes would be eliminated if Sport didnt exist..

I personally like to dream about how many climbers (and access issues) would be eliminated if Sport [and] didn't exist. My guess is if there was only trad climbing tomorrow there would be like an overnight 80% reduction in our ranks.


clausti


Jan 28, 2005, 11:49 AM
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so the carcass of this was rotting for a *good* long while 'fore somebody kicked it to see if it stank.


where we got so far [in no partilar order]--
1] some climbers are cool all around. and some of them climb sport, and some trad, and some both.

2] some trad climbers are insecure, geocentric-model-ascribing assholes, and they refuse to concede variation in the persuit. They like to put down other people becuase they have never figgured out how all the rest of the little boys have so much fun with their cocks.

3] some sport climbers are idiots. and they bolt stupid shit, or they bolt shit stupidly. Lots of them started climbing in gyms, which, depite serious gumby-factory potential, are not catagorically horrible places.


I *so* doubt this will get solved.

I subscribe to the climbing, and all clipping assiociated therewith, of sport routes.


johnkelley


Jan 29, 2005, 10:05 AM
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Ground up face climbing,hand drilling on lead,is a dying art.Most climbers nowdays don't have the slighest clue how to do this.It's just so much easier to take the sport climbing approach.Which is neither!Almost anything will go ground up with hooks,heads,and a hand drill.I never sport climb! I never climb rap(or retro) bolted routes out of protest. I chop if I feel like it.Why don't climbers police themselves anymore?HAHAHA anyways AKicebum I'm always looking for partners.Maybe up here or there?


dingus


Jan 29, 2005, 11:46 AM
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In reply to:
My guess is if there was only trad climbing tomorrow there would be like an overnight 80% reduction in our ranks.

You're like a Climbing Mullah, preaching fundamentalism and theocracy.

Its here to stay. Not even with a jihad can you change the course of history.

DMT


dirtineye


Jan 29, 2005, 5:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
My guess is if there was only trad climbing tomorrow there would be like an overnight 80% reduction in our ranks.

You're like a Climbing Mullah, preaching fundamentalism and theocracy.

Its here to stay. Not even with a jihad can you change the course of history.

DMT

Dingus, you sure are stuck on religion lately. Healyj is a mullah, drkodos is, um, spawn of satan, who knows what you'll come up with next?

My question is, whre do the Unitarians fit in?






And do they come right back out or are they good pro?


mack_north


Feb 24, 2005, 4:40 AM
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In reply to:
My question is, whre do the Unitarians fit in?

I dated a Unitarian once - she came from a good bloodline, had lips like two nightcrawlers making love, high-payng job. I thought we were destiny. When she turned 30 she started getting this moustache thing going on. Couldn't get rid of it. It wasn't big and bushy like Ron Jeremy or Burt Reynolds in "Stroker Ace" but it was a distraction. I would even wait until she fell asleep and try and Nair that thing off of there. Nothing worked. So I dumped her. Broke her heart.

She asked me if it was because of the moustache. I lied and told her of course it wasn't, I wasn't THAT shallow. I told her I finally realized I was gay.


crag_shwagger


Feb 24, 2005, 4:54 AM
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I agree with you but just dont climb with him.- shwagger


andrewscott


Feb 24, 2005, 5:10 AM
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Yah, sport may be the death of the sport. It's like anything, The more accesible you make it more pussys and posers are going to show up. In the end you can't let them get to you. Tell Mr. ShinyRack to Cowdoy Up and snag some FA's in you area. And the rest of them. . . Forget 'em


viciado


Mar 7, 2005, 10:42 AM
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Just a simple point to argue:

Several people have lamented the number of people climbing... even dreaming that something like 80% would stop. I wonder how much technology we would be missing out on and how much more expensive the limited gear would be if the current market base did not exist.

I live in a country with a relatively small climbing community and we work hard to bring this sport and it variants to public view. This increases access to areas as well as availability of materials. It also increases traffic in the more accessible areas. I see it as a trade-off and just try to avoid the over-crowded areas at peak times. I also could care less if someone climbs the route before I do... as a matter of fact, its highly likely that they will.


jackhammer


Mar 7, 2005, 10:57 AM
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Agreed....


baigot


Mar 7, 2005, 12:37 PM
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Im a lover of adventure climbing, find new places, climb sport routes in a Trad way. I (and the people who climb with me) try to find new crags for the others. Im that type of climber. Not a strong climber but someone who claim for the "old" style of the climbing.

Well. I ask this simple question, Why bring this sport to public view???

Not for selfishness but i think climbing is becoming more a "sport" tan a discipline of mountaneering being on public view, and that i think is dangerous.

I see now more federal institutions putting intervention and regulation on climbing than years ago, because of the accidents occuring in comercial expeditions or newbies trying to do something out of their hands. This and other stuff is in detriment of climbing.

Is complicated but we must think about it for the good of our discipline,

Tanx,

Vicente


viciado


Mar 7, 2005, 3:48 PM
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And thus is hijacked a perfectly enjoyable thread...

I see your point regarding regulation. As I stated above, there are specific advantages to raising public awareness. One of the advantages is public support, both financial and social. These advantages impact positively the sport, but as you said also give rise to the possibility of abuse (which, I believe is where this thread got its start). We then see the government getting involved and all sorts of complications.

The reality is that in our current global culture (whatever that is), information is gold. Bringing climbing and its various modes to light provides us with a better base from which we can develop and even defend various aspects of the sport. Thus I am in favor of bringing climbing to a greater level of public awareness.

No, my position is not a panacea.


live2climb


Mar 7, 2005, 4:09 PM
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i belive that people are totaly different in their comfort levles and thats good cauz some people should not climb trad or even outside for that mater. some people are afrade and they will freeze up and have to end up geting rescued and thats no good. so they stay in a controlled invironment with top ropes and huge pads. That is fun for them and thats what counts, on the othor hand you get the people who do it for the adventure and they trad lead and love it and are comfortabile doing it so thats great they are having fun just like the kids in the gym that are scarde.
life is 4 living to the fullest and we all have diferent compacities to fill. and we all have too learn ourselves before we can judge someone else
thanks


baigot


Mar 7, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Ok, Im with you...but i going to bring my argument...

Public exposure did to Mountaneering in Argentina some abusive things. Parques Nacionales charge to climbers an ammount of money to climb some mountains, as they said "because their impact to the enviroment". :shock:

Why? They will be bring a rescue service? NO, theyll bring a mainteinance to some refugies in the area? NO. Just for the "supposed" impact to enviroment.

But the tried to charge to climber but not to trekkers. Why?

Im in favor of not to charge when you are in public lands, cause they are public, i mean of all argetinians. OR charge a little ammount for mainteinance purpuses.

For me, TO MUCH exposure to the public means too much troubles than the benefits you can get of it.

But as you said, its my opinion and is refutable.

Vicente
Argentina


viciado


Mar 8, 2005, 9:57 AM
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Vincente,

Again, your point regarding regulation is well taken. Regulation of a given sport by non-practicioners (is that a word in English?) of the sport is problematic. While maybe not on the same scale as your issue, it is worth while pointing out tha access fees are normal for many extreme areas. Nepal evidently charges a per person fee for alpine climbing. I understand that some wilderness areas in the US also charge just to enter and extract heavy fines if you are found without a pass. Its a reality that is not going to change. While I do not think that it is fair, I recognize that public opinion goes a long way in changing government policy. By increasing positive public relations between climbers and the general pubic, the sport stands a better chance of "better regulation." If such a thing exists.

I cannot agree or sympathise more with the problem you stated. I simply have a different approach to a possible solution. I believe that reconciliation is always a worthy goal and that takes good Pubic Relations.

Peace,
Scott


boymeetsrock


Apr 7, 2005, 10:34 PM
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viciado was right, knowledge is gold. the problem seems to be, inmho, that sprot and gym climbing place NO!!! emphasis on knowledge.
For example, some years ago a sport climber was seriously injured when his partner lowered him off the rope. the rope they used was 60m, the climb was 130ft. what the @#$% where they thinking.
the answer is that they were not thinking, or they just didn't know what they were doing.
gym and sport climbing while great excercise and training, have lead to degredation of the evn. as well as many injuries and bad attitudes via ignorance. We are suposed to be enjoying the outdoors, thats why it all began. rockclimbing should not be a pissing contest, but rather a common ground....


dredsovrn


Apr 7, 2005, 10:51 PM
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Keep it real.


kpj240789


Apr 7, 2005, 11:05 PM
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In reply to:
kalc you may have been there and done that... but these gym rats will be climbing circle around you on trad, sport, aid, bouldering and ice because they've :
started younger
had coaching
had more and better training
climb year round
have old trad mentors that accept change and see the future of climbing in the children they coach's hands

if you wanna be f---ing old school and bad throw out those cams, light wire gate biners, spectra, off sets, 8.0 double ropes , forget those nice shooes with the sticky rubber, comfy harness

rack up some pitons and steel ovals and go to f---ing town
for f--- you're so bad ass it's amazing

take ur trad rack to Rumney and hop on anything at Waimea, take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up

yes i can get up some stuff at a trad cliff.. can YOU get up anything at certain sport walls? i forget which place but it's like if you dont lead 5.11c dont both going
sure i cant jam for the life of me... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?

I agree with you.


akicebum


Apr 7, 2005, 11:31 PM
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I made the quote, "gym climbing has torn the heart out of climbing," when I posted this. I believe this from the bottom of my heart. Look at all of the posturing and climbing gucci that you see at your gym and crag. Look how many people aren't smiling or that are when they should be a little more focused on the task at hand. I am glad this post resurfaced. I was reading Alpinist 3 today and I came across a quote from Pavel Shabalin buried in Kelly Cordes's article that read as follows:

"Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itsel in the same historical situation as is love. When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines it became pornography."

I have friends that I can no longer share a rope with. I have suffered, and loved what I do. Climbing is beautiful in its simplicity. It is an ultimate reality that I cherish and I could never again be without. Through it I have learned a lot about life; what matters, what is trivial, and what makes me happy as a person.
While this article adresses a subject that may seem petty to a lot of people it strikes at the heart of a coulture that has chosen mediocrity over mastery. We choose to speak instead of act. There is this idea of being well rounded and a jack of all trades, but we are ending up with a population that does nothing well, and many things terribly. But we group together and tell eachother that we are good at all things which we are terrible at. Most actually resent people that have the drive to excel at a discipline.
It is fine to recreate and climbing is a healthy fun way to get outside, but it is dangerous and can be hard on the envirionment. Someone else fun can ruin the experience for everyone else to come. People who place bolts on an existing line because they feel its their right to disgust me.
The attitudes in the gym and that have begun showing up on videos and in climbing magazines is one of competition and arrogance. I have a head that barely fits through the door, but I am encouraging and I am always supportive of people whether they are climbing in the gym or not. I do believe that if they choose to leave the gym then they have taken on the resposibility to learn what is acceptable in the area they are climbing.
Then there is my issue with people that do nothing but talk. There is no place for them. They just need to shut the f^ck up! Climb or don't climb, I don't care, but if your mouth is running you better be pulling down! Its, liers and sh*t talkers that give people like me that love climbing a bad name. But I gotta go so hope you are all getting some spring climbing in.


cfmwh


Apr 7, 2005, 11:57 PM
Post #117 of 117 (11672 views)
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Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 107

Re: You know what really chaps my a$$ [In reply to]
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Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at.

Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago.

Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second.

But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.

Good God, this is, hands down the best post I've ever read on this site. It's just, well, true.


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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